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Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 24 Sep 2011, 07:51

craig weiler wrote:The bit with Dean Radin. You do know that the quote is from 15 years ago and pretty much taken out of context?

I knew it was a little old, but didn't know the date. I've searched parapsychology references for years and still haven't found one where we can say "it's true." (I was actually trying to be funny. Sorry for the attempt.) But it's not taken out of context I don't believe.
To be fair, here's the whole quote:
"There are four stages of adopting new ideas," Radin mused. "The first is, 'It's impossible.' The second is, 'Maybe it's possible, but it's weak and uninteresting.' The third is, 'It is true and I told you so.' And the fourth is, 'I thought of it first.' I believe an informed analysis over the years will show that parapsychology was stuck in stage 1 for decades. However, because of the weight of the data, around 1985 we began to move into stage 2. Now we are firmly in stage 2. I think around the year 2000 we will begin to move into stage 3, and maybe a few years later be firmly there. Stage 4 is inevitable."

We're definitely not in the third stage yet though and that prediction should have happened over a decade ago...
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 24 Sep 2011, 08:07

craig weiler wrote:And this does not strike you as odd that all of this science is automatically rejected regardless of the experiment or researcher?

From my stance, it would not automatically be rejected if there was some strong evidence. I don't do that kind of research, but there are many in similar fields that do and that would confirm it if the evidence was there, regardless of the experiment or researcher.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 24 Sep 2011, 09:02

PW: I misread you, I think you missed Radin's gist. He wasn't saying that he thought psi was weak and uncertain. He was chidding the skeptics for not yet latching onto the big ideas of psi and predicting that in a few years (one psi was mainstream and established) that they'd be touting that they believed in it all the time because it was so obvious.

He's said the same thing more recently I believe. I think I recall hearing him say this in an interview not too long ago. Either him or one of his peers/
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 24 Sep 2011, 09:06

I have just demonstrated the total disconnect between skepticism and the science. If that is not in the least convincing to you then you are truly stuck.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 24 Sep 2011, 20:01

craig weiler wrote:I have just demonstrated the total disconnect between skepticism and the science. If that is not in the least convincing to you then you are truly stuck.

Could you be more specific by what you mean Craig?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 24 Sep 2011, 20:05

Arouet wrote:PW: I misread you, I think you missed Radin's gist. He wasn't saying that he thought psi was weak and uncertain. He was chidding the skeptics for not yet latching onto the big ideas of psi and predicting that in a few years (one psi was mainstream and established) that they'd be touting that they believed in it all the time because it was so obvious.

He's said the same thing more recently I believe. I think I recall hearing him say this in an interview not too long ago. Either him or one of his peers/

Yea, maybe. But I do believe he was saying that the evidence for psi was weak...
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 24 Sep 2011, 21:00

Believe me: he wasn't. Not Dean Radin. He was talking about mainstream acceptance of psi. He's written a couple books on psi - he thinks the evidence is strong.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Craig Browning » 25 Sep 2011, 05:01

wrote:To my knowledge none of the three primary skeptics on this forum have taken up my challenge regarding the "Wisdom of the Mystic Masters" which more or less sustains what Craig has been pointing out and what I refer to when it comes to how today's self-ascribed skeptics simply assume things to be a certain way based on what they've read from biased publications or worse, on-line sources, and in a good number of cases, personal loathing of such things for whatever personal experience that has brought such about -- it's not just a Left vs. Right brain kind of thing, though such is a big factor.


Craig, I was unaware of this "challenge." If you posted it in the middle of one of your rather lengthy posts, I probably didn't even read it as I usually don't take the time if they are more than a couple paragraphs, but if you'd care to post it again in a more moderate post, I'll see what it's about. BTW, before you ask, I only read this one because it was either read your post or follow-up with a state senator I debated on Wednesday about unemployment benefits and, quite frankly, he bored me with his political answers so I thought he could wait a while and I'd just spend time being bored here...


You don’t recall my posting about the book Wisdom of the Mystic Masters a few weeks ago and the conversation that was had by a few of us when it came to my not finding a single skeptic that’s willing to even try to learn about “true” mysticism and mental prowess as its been taught for most of the past millennia. Not only to see first hand the impact of such practice in their lives but to likewise see how down to earth and “rational” (in most instances) the whole process is and from which the theories, formulae and philosophies emerge.

Craig Browning wrote:To my mind and apparently Craig W's this is something Skeptics fail to do; they refuse to learn about the other side of an issue ...{/quote]

I don't refuse to do it, I just don't "play fetch." (Gee, wonder where I got THAT term!


Cute. . .

But what I’m saying isn’t the same as you guys wanting me to retrieve 101 links or cite a dozen different cases, articles, etc. I’m simply not that anal-retentive when it comes to my pack-rat side of being. I’d much rather stock-pile really nifty gadgets, antiques and whatever I can find that has an esoteric/macabre history around it. (I admit it, I’m strange).

But, we are still looking at what I described in the previous and the rarity of finding a self-professed skeptic who is willing to do actual footwork into the arena he/she scorns. They will, just like every other Sunday Go’n to Meet’n bible thumper, embrace with the ministry tells them to believe and reference the passages they’re told to reference, but seemingly never recognize how empty their faith is without works – without personal investment of time and honest effort when it comes to learning about something they’ve been told to distrust, detest and even fear.

Maybe it’s because of how I was taught to study things, but to me an opinion can’t be made on something that is fair and unbiased, until I have looked at it from each angle and weighed those perspectives both, in my mind and my gut. This is what the old mystics taught as well and I can’t help but buy into the logic that this really is the ONLY WAY to find genuine understanding and truth about all things.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 25 Sep 2011, 05:32

Again Craig: if I'm going to do this I would like a way to reliably analyse it: do you have one or do you just go on feeling?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 25 Sep 2011, 20:38

craig weiler wrote:And this does not strike you as odd that all of this science is automatically rejected regardless of the experiment or researcher?

Scientists went public in the past couple of days claiming they have broken the speed of light, challenging the laws of physics as we know it. Yet, most scientists have not accepted that this could be true and have rejected it until the experiments can be replicated. So no, this does not strike me as odd as this is the way science is supposed to be.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 25 Sep 2011, 20:46

Craig Browning wrote:You don’t recall my posting about the book Wisdom of the Mystic Masters a few weeks ago and the conversation that was had by a few of us when it came to my not finding a single skeptic that’s willing to even try to learn about “true” mysticism and mental prowess as its been taught for most of the past millennia. Not only to see first hand the impact of such practice in their lives but to likewise see how down to earth and “rational” (in most instances) the whole process is and from which the theories, formulae and philosophies emerge.


I recall the conversation, but I don't recall a challenge associated with it. Sorry.

I see you've sidestepped Arouet and my challenge to you showing where we have called someone a nutcase or a time waster...
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Craig Browning » 26 Sep 2011, 00:49

No, I've not side stepped anything. I believe my statement was far more cover-all and referring to skeptics as a whole and how they react towards believers and "imply" for lack of a better term, that we are missing more than a few marbles. Said implication stems from the previously noted sense of arrogance and the "I'm smarter than you because. . ." attitudes and in some instances, out and out claims made by individuals like Shermer, Hyman and the like; Penn Jillette and several noted "entertainers" from that world will boldly tell audience members that they are "STUPID" for buying into such "Crap". . . then again, said dynamic duo have no qualms about insulting anyone or anything they don't like (and admittedly, I've had to laugh at some of it).

:oops: Maybe I've inadvertently tossed you guys into the same basket, but as they say, if it walks like a duck. . .

Because of my interaction with certain notables in the skeptic world (non-confrontations, let's go to dinner type bits and friendly phone chats) I know that this view does not exist with all members of that community and too, I know most don't realize they project such venom and animosity -- ego. But there is a reason why I keep tying skeptics in with fundamentalist Christians and how they are just as dogmatic when it comes to believing that their "truth" is the "only" truth and all that believe the contrary are damned and fools. Even Randi has joked about how close some of today's skeptics are exactly like the religionists.

As to the book, I still dare any of our skeptical members to do as I suggested previously and set aside that year or two, forget all the critical assumptions and do your best to not dissect the material; JUST DO IT! and keep a personal record in regards to your experiences. You can come back later with that fine-toothed critics comb and analyze things, but for the time of this experiment, sit that side of your nature off to the side and just let things unfold as they will -- accept the little things and seek to understand them on a more "emotional" level -- seek to connect with that less dominant side of your nature so you can learn to see things in a more rounded and fair sense.

Another set of books that may help those that choose to take up this challenge would be;
Real Magic by P. I. Bonewits
A Kabbalah for Modern Times by Migene Gonzalez-Wipler
The Psychology of Religious Ritual by M. P. Hall (Hall has tons of great stuff you may actually enjoy)
Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig

The Novels
The Celestine Prophecy (only the first book and related workbook) by James Redfield -- while controversial, the first book with the workbook that followed it (less well known) are widely viewed as "genuine" when it comes to metaphysical living and the more elementary side of learning to appreciate all things and all people in a more universal sense that has strong spiritual and even emotional ties. The workbook is an excellent step by step process of self-investigation and learning to know who the real person is behind the facade.

Jonathon Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach is one of the best, simple demonstrations on Reincarnation and how the soul and consciousness evolves with each life time. You may not want to buy into the idea of Reincarnation but this tale can help clarify a great deal when it comes to the concept. Ironically that isn't what made Richard write the book; it was a series of dreams he had about a WWII flight team that used a Seagull as part of their logo.

ILLUSIONS also by Bach, will help you see the idea of metaphysical life from both, the neophyte and adept perspectives via which a good dose of humor has been injected alongside a must interesting revelation at the close of the text, that will certainly appeal to every skeptic's heart (but don't jump to the end of the book, enjoy the journey so you get the punch-line).

This "challenge" does not have the goal of converting anyone or creating any sort of drastic change in an individual's life, such things are personal and part of their own process. On the other hand, this challenge about cultivating understanding based on the experiential -- a first hand investigation and "experimentation" around the things you happen to condemn/deny. It's really the only way anyone can HONESTLY present a personal point of view on any subject; to jump into the pool and take a long swim prior to forming an opinion.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 26 Sep 2011, 20:34

Craig Browning wrote: :oops: Maybe I've inadvertently tossed you guys into the same basket, but as they say, if it walks like a duck. . .


So based on this statement, I can put all psychics into the same basket as Sylvia or Miss Cleo. Right?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Craig Browning » 27 Sep 2011, 22:03

ProfWag wrote:
Craig Browning wrote: :oops: Maybe I've inadvertently tossed you guys into the same basket, but as they say, if it walks like a duck. . .


So based on this statement, I can put all psychics into the same basket as Sylvia or Miss Cleo. Right?


Most skeptics do and ironically, many of the "psychics" that see things as I do, will do the same. We roll our eyes, moan to ourselves, and then move on.

It's hard to break a habit, but that's why I and Craig W are aware of the patterns common to 99% of the skeptics we encounter.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby ProfWag » 28 Sep 2011, 02:52

Craig Browning wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Craig Browning wrote: :oops: Maybe I've inadvertently tossed you guys into the same basket, but as they say, if it walks like a duck. . .


So based on this statement, I can put all psychics into the same basket as Sylvia or Miss Cleo. Right?


Most skeptics do and ironically, many of the "psychics" that see things as I do, will do the same. We roll our eyes, moan to ourselves, and then move on.

It's hard to break a habit, but that's why I and Craig W are aware of the patterns common to 99% of the skeptics we encounter.

Which are?....what, that we want to see valid, repeatable evidence for psi? Uhhh, yea, that should actually be a pattern common to 100% of the skeptics.
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