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Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 21 Sep 2011, 23:36

No, actually, safety is not a red herring, it's actually very important. It's part of the equation because you have to ask yourself: is homeopathy worse than conventional medicine? The answer is probably no. Besides, there are numerous positive studies. I'll have to get them later though. I'm out of time this morning.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 21 Sep 2011, 23:56

The criticism against homeopathy is that there is nothing in it. So of course its going to be safe, since water is safe. There are no side effects because there is no affect at all. Do you see why its a red herring? Jelly beans are also safe (aside from empty calories and tooth decay) but we wouldn't prescribe it to cure someone of something.

Yes, let's get into the studies. That'd be great!
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 22 Sep 2011, 06:13

Here is a list of positve studies: There are a lot of them. I had to go to page 3 on a search for "positive homeopathic studies" to find what I was looking for. That is a big red flag that someone is tinkering with the search results. The pharmaceutical industry has clearly hired out a firm to make homeopathy look bad. It's done all the time: http://theweek.com/article/index/203754 ... le-results

Clinical research evidence in favour of homeopathy
SyStematiC reviewS
Childhood diarrhoea
1. Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D. Homeopathy for childhood diarrhoea: combined
results and meta-analysis from three randomized, controlled clinical trials. Pediatric Infectious Disease
Journal 2003; 22: 229–234.
Hay fever
2. Bellavite P, Ortolani R, Pontarollo F, et al. Immunology and homeopathy. 4. Clinical studies –
Part 2. Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2006; 3: 397–409.
3. Taylor MA, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, et al. Randomised controlled trials of homoeopathy versus
placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British Medical Journal 2000;
321: 471–476.
4. Wiesenauer M, Lüdtke R. A meta-analysis of the homeopathic treatment of pollinosis with Galphimia
glauca. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde 1996; 3: 230–236.
influenza treatment
5. Vickers A, Smith C. Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenzalike
syndromes (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library. Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
2006; CD001957.
Post-operative ileus
6. Barnes J, Resch K-L, Ernst E. Homeopathy for postoperative ileus? A meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical
Gastroenterology 1997; 25: 628–633
respiratory tract infection
7. Bornhöft G, Wolf U, Ammon K, et al. Effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of homeopathy in
general practice – summarized health technology assessment. Forschende Komplementärmedizin 2006;
13 Suppl 2: 19–29.
vertigo
8. Schneider B, Klein P, Weiser M. Treatment of vertigo with a homeopathic complex remedy compared
with usual treatments: a meta-analysis of clinical trials. Arzneimittelforschung 2005; 55: 23–29.
randomiSed Controlled trialS (rCts)
allergic asthma
9. Reilly D, Taylor MA, Beattie NGM, et al. Is evidence for homeopathy reproducible? Lancet 1994;
344: 1601–1606.
www.britishhomeopathic.org
anal fissure
10. Bignamini M, Saruggia M, Sansonetti G. Homoeopathic treatment of anal fissures using Nitricum
acidum. Berlin Journal on Research in Homeopathy 1991; 1: 286–287.
ankle sprain
11. Zell J, Connert WD, Mau J, Feuerstake G. Treatment of acute sprains of the ankle. Controlled doubleblind
trial to test the effectiveness of a homeopathic ointment. Fortschritte der Medizin 1988; 106: 96–100.
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
12. Frei H, Everts R, von Ammon K, et al. Homeopathic treatment of children with attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder: a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial. European Journal
of Pediatrics 2005; 164: 758–767.
Brain injury
13. Chapman EH, Weintraub RJ, Milburn MA, et al. Homeopathic treatment of mild traumatic brain injury: a
randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Journal of Head Trauma Rehabilitation 1999;
14: 521–542.
Bronchitis
14. Diefenbach M, Schilken J, Steiner G, Becker HJ. Homeopathic therapy in respiratory tract diseases.
Evaluation of a clinical study in 258 patients. Zeitschrift für Allgemeinmedizin 1997; 73: 308–314.
Childhood diarrhoea
15. Jacobs J, Jimenez LM, Gloyds SS, et al. Treatment of acute childhood diarrhea with homeopathic
medicine; a randomized clinical trial in Nicaragua. Pediatrics 1994; 93: 719–725.
16. Jacobs J, Jimenez LM, Malthouse S, et al. Homeopathic treatment of acute childhood diarrhoea: results
from a clinical trial in Nepal. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 2000; 6: 131–139.
Chronic fatigue syndrome
17. Weatherley-Jones E, Nicholl JP, Thomas KJ, et al. A randomized, controlled, triple-blind trial of the
efficacy of homeopathic treatment for chronic fatigue syndrome. Journal of Psychosomatic Research
2004; 56: 189–197.
Common cold
18. Maiwald VL, Weinfurtner T, Mau J, Connert WD. Treatment of common cold with a combination
homeopathic preparation compared with acetylsalicylic acid. A controlled, randomized single-blind study.
Arzneimittelforschung 1988; 38: 578–582.
Cough
19. Bordes LR, Dorfman P. Evaluation of the antitussive effect of Drosetux syrup: double-blind study versus
placebo. Cahiers d’ORL 1986; 21: 731–734.
dry mouth
20. Haila S, Koskinen A, Tenovuo J. Effects of homeopathic treatment on salivary flow rate and subjective
symptoms in patients with oral dryness: a randomized trial. Homeopathy 2005; 94: 175–181.
Fibromyalgia
21. Bell I, Lewis D, Brooks A, et al. Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with
individualized homeopathic remedies versus placebo. Rheumatology 2004; 43: 577–582.
22. Fisher P. An experimental double-blind clinical trial method in homoeopathy. Use of a limited range of
remedies to treat fibrositis. British Homeopathic Journal 1986; 75: 142-147.
23 Relton C, Smith C, Raw J, et al. Healthcare provided by a homeopath as an adjunct to usual care for
fibromyalgia (FMS): results of a pilot randomised controlled trial. Homeopathy 2009; 98: 77–82.
Hay fever
24. Aabel S, Laerum E, Dølvik S, Djupesland P. Is homeopathic ‘immunotherapy’ effective? A double-blind,
placebo-controlled trial with the isopathic remedy Betula 30c for patients with birch pollen allergy. British
Homeopathic Journal 2000; 89: 161–168.
25. Kim LS, Riedlinger JE, Baldwin CM, et al. Treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis using homeopathic
preparation of common allergens in the southwest region of the US: a randomized, controlled clinical
trial. Annals of Pharmacotherapy 2005; 39: 617–624.
26. Reilly DT, Taylor MA. Potent placebo or potency? A proposed study model with initial findings using
homoeopathically prepared pollens in hayfever. British Homeopathic Journal 1985; 74: 65–75.
27. Reilly DT, Taylor MA, McSharry C, Aitchison T. Is homeopathy a placebo response? Controlled trial of
homeopathic potency, with pollen in hayfever as model. Lancet 1986; ii: 881–885.
28. Taylor MA, Reilly D, Llewellyn-Jones RH, McSharry C, Aitchison TC. Randomised controlled trial of
homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial series. British
Medical Journal 2000; 321: 471–476.
29. Weiser M, Gegenheimer LH, Klein P. A randomized equivalence trial comparing the efficacy and safety
of Luffa comp.-Heel nasal spray with cromolyn sodium spray in the treatment of seasonal allergic
rhinitis. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde 1999; 6: 142–148.
30. Wiesenauer M, Häussler S, Gaus W. Treatment of pollinosis with Galphimia glauca. Fortschritte der
Medizin 1983; 101: 811–814.
31. Wiesenauer M, Gaus W, Häussler S. Treatment of pollinosis with the homeopathic preparation
Galphimia glauca. A double-blind trial in clinical practice. Allergologie 1990; 13: 359–363.
Hiv infection
32. Rastogi DP, Singh VP, Singh V, et al. Homeopathy in HIV infection: a trial report of double-blind placebo
controlled study. British Homeopathic Journal 1999; 88: 49–57.
immune function
33. Kuzeff RM. Homeopathy, sensation of well-being and CD4-levels – A placebo-controlled, randomized
trial. Complementary Therapies in Medicine 1998; 6: 4–9.
infertility (female)
34. Bergmann J, Luft B, Boehmann S, et al. The efficacy of the complex medication Phyto-Hypophyson L
in female, hormone-related sterility. A randomized, placebo-controlled clinical double-blind study.
Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde 2000; 7: 190–199.
influenza
35. Ferley JP, Zmirou D, D’Adhemar D, Balducci F. A controlled evaluation of a homoeopathic preparation in
the treatment of influenza like syndromes. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 1989; 27: 329–335.
36. Papp R, Schuback G, Beck E, et al. Oscillococcinum in patients with influenza-like syndromes: a
placebo-controlled double-blind evaluation. British Homeopathic Journal 1998; 87: 69–76.
37. Brydak LB, Denys A. The evaluation of humoral response and the clinical evaluation of a risk-group
patients’ state of health after administration of the homeopathic preparation Gripp-Heel during the
influenza epidemic season 1993/94. International Review of Allergology and Clinical Immunology 1999; 5:
223–227.
38. Rottey EED, Verleye GB, Liagre RLP. The effect of a homeopathic preparation in the prevention of flu symptoms:
a randomized double-blind trial in primary care practice. Tijdschrift Integrale Geneeskunde 1995; 11: 54–58.
irritable bowel syndrome
39. Rahlfs VW, Mössinger P. Asa foetida in the treatment of the irritable colon – a double-blind trial.
Deutsche medizinische Wochenschrift 1978; 104: 140–143.
Kidney failure
40. Saruggia M, Corghi E. Effects of homoeopathic dilutions of china rubra on intradialytic symptomatology
in patients treated with chronic haemodialysis. British Homeopathic Journal 1992; 81: 86-88.
low back pain
41. Stam C, Bonnet MS, van Haselen RA. The efficacy and safety of a homeopathic gel in the treatment of
acute low back pain: a multi-centre, randomized, double-blind comparative clinical trial. British
Homeopathic Journal 2001; 90: 21–28.
migraine
42. Brigo B, Serpelloni G. Homoeopathic treatment of migraines: a randomized double-blind study of sixty
cases (homoeopathic remedy versus placebo). Berlin Journal on Research in Homeopathy 1991; 1: 98–106.
muscle soreness
43. Tveiten D, Bruseth S, Borchgrevink CF, Norseth J. Effects of the homoeopathic remedy Arnica D30 on
marathon runners: a randomized, double-blind study during the 1995 Oslo Marathon. Complementary
Therapies in Medicine 1998; 6: 71–74.
obesity
44. Werk W, Lehmann M, Galland F. Comparative controlled trial on the effect of the homeopathic botanical
medicinal product Helianthus tuberosus D1 as an adjuvant in the treatment of obesity. Therapiewoche
1994; 44: 34–39.
osteoarthritis
45. Shealy CN, Thomlinson RP, Cox RH, Borgmeyer RN. Osteoarthritic pain: a comparison of homeopathy
and acetaminophen. American Journal of Pain Management 1998; 8: 89–91.
46. van Haselen RA, Fisher PAG. A randomized controlled trial comparing topical piroxicam gel with a
homeopathic gel in osteoarthritis of the knee. Rheumatology 2000; 39: 714–719.
otitis media
47. Jacobs J, Springer DA, Crothers D. Homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media in children: a
preliminary randomized placebo-controlled trial. Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal 2001; 20: 177–183.
Plantar fasciitis
48. Clark J, Percivall A. A preliminary investigation into the effectiveness of the homeopathic remedy, Ruta
graveolens, in the treatment of pain in plantar fasciitis. British Journal of Podiatry 2000; 3: 81–85.
Post-operative agitation
49. Alibeu JP, Jobert J. Homeopathic therapy with Aconite for post-operative pain-agitation syndrome.
Pédiatrie 1990; 45: 465–466.
Post-operative bruising, pain or swelling
50. Brinkhaus B, Wilkens JM, Lüdtke R, et al. Homeopathic arnica therapy in patients receiving knee
surgery: results of three randomised double-blind trials. Complementary Therapies in Medicine 2006;
14: 237–246.
51. Robertson A, Suryanarayanan R, Banerjee A. Homeopathic Arnica montana for post-tonsillectomy
analgesia: a randomised placebo control trial. Homeopathy 2007; 96: 17–21.
52. Seeley BM, Denton AB, Ahn MS, Maas CS. Effect of homeopathic Arnica montana on bruising in facelifts:
results of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Archives of Facial Plastic
Surgery 2006; 8: 54–59.
Post-partum bleeding
53. Oberbaum M, Galoyan N, Lerner-Geva L, et al. The effect of the homeopathic remedies Arnica and
Bellis perennis on mild postpartum bleeding – a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study –
preliminary results. Complementary Therapies in Medicine 2005; 13: 87–90.
Post-partum lactation problems
54. Berrebi A, Parant O, Ferval F, et al. Treatment of pain due to unwanted lactation with a homeopathic
preparation given in the immediate post-partum period. Journal de gynécologie, obstétrique et biologie
de la reproduction 2001; 30: 353–357.
Premenstrual syndrome
55. Yakir M, Kreitler S, Brzezinski A, Vithoulkas G, Oberbaum M, Bentwich Z. Effects of homeopathic treatment
in women with premenstrual syndrome: a pilot study. British Homeopathic Journal 2001; 90: 148–153.
Pruritus
56. Cavalcanti AM, Rocha LM, Carillo R Jr, et al. Effects of homeopathic treatment on pruritus of
haemodialysis patients: a randomized placebo-controlled double-blind trial. Homeopathy 2003; 92: 177–181.
radiotherapy-induced dermatitis
57. Balzarini A, Felisi E, Martini A, De Conno F. Efficacy of homeopathic treatment of skin reactions during
radiotherapy for breast cancer: a randomized, double-blind clinical trial. British Homeopathic Journal
2000; 89: 8–12.
respiratory tract infection
58. Steinsbekk A, Fønnebø V, Lewith G, Bentzen N. Homeopathic care for the prevention of upper
respiratory tract infections in children: a pragmatic, randomized, controlled trial comparing randomized
homeopathic care and waiting-list controls. Complementary Therapies in Medicine 2005; 13: 231–238.
Seborrhoeic dermatitis
59. Smith SA, Baker AE, Williams JH. Effective treatment of seborrhoeic dermatitis using a low dose, oral
homeopathic medication consisting of potassium bromide, sodium bromide, nickel sulfate, and sodium
chloride in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Alternative Medicine Review 2002; 7: 59–67.
Sepsis
60. Frass M, Linkesch M, Banyai S, et al. Adjunctive homeopathic treatment in patients with severe sepsis:
a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in an intensive care unit. Homeopathy 2005; 94: 75–80.
Sinusitis
61. Friese K-H, Zabalotnyi DI. Homeopathy in acute rhinosinusitis. A double-blind, placebo controlled study
shows the efficiency and tolerability of a homeopathic combination remedy. HNO 2007; 55: 271–277.
62. Weiser M, Clasen B. Randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study of the clinical efficacy of the
homeopathic Euphorbium compositum-S nasal spray in cases of chronic sinusitis. Forschende Komple -
mentärmedizin 1994; 1: 251–259.
63. Zabolotnyi DI, Kneis KC, Richardson A, et al. Efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal)
in patients with acute maxillary sinusitis: a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled,
multicenter clinical trial. Explore (NY) 2007; 3: 98–109.
Stomatitis
64. Oberbaum M, Yaniv I, Ben-Gal Y, et al. A randomized, controlled clinical trial of the homeopathic
medication Traumeel S in the treatment of chemotherapy-induced stomatitis in children undergoing stem
cell transplantation. Cancer 2001; 92: 684–690.
tracheal secretions
65. Frass M, Dielacher C, Linkesch M, et al. Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in
critically ill patients. Chest 2005; 127: 936–941.
varicose veins
66. Ernst E, Saradeth T, Resch KL. Complementary therapy of varicose veins – a randomized, placebocontrolled,
double-blind trial. Phlebology 1990; 5: 157–163.
vertigo
67. Issing W, Klein P, Weiser M. The homeopathic preparation Vertigoheel versus Ginkgo biloba in the
treatment of vertigo in an elderly population: a double-blinded, randomized, controlled clinical trial.
Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 2005; 11: 155–160.
68. Weiser M, Strösser W, Klein P. Homeopathic vs. conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized doubleblind
controlled clinical study. Archives of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery 1998; 124: 879–885.
non-randomiSed StUdieS
Cardiac insufficiency
69. Schroder D, Weiser M, Klein P. Efficacy of a homeopathic Crataegus preparation compared with usual
therapy for mild (NYHA II) cardiac insufficiency: results of an observational cohort study. European
Journal of Heart Failure 2003; 5: 319–326.
Childhood fever
70. Derasse M, Klein P, Weiser M. The effects of a complex homeopathic medicine compared with
acetaminophen in the symptomatic treatment of acute febrile infections in children: an observational
study. Explore (NY) 2005; 1: 33–39.
Common cold
71. Schmiedel V, Klein P. A complex homeopathic preparation for the symptomatic treatment of upper respiratory
infections associated with the common cold: An observational study. Explore (NY) 2006; 2: 109–114.
dysmenorrhoea
72. Witt CM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN. Homeopathic treatment of patients with dysmenorrhea: a prospective
observational study with 2 years follow-up. Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics 2009; 280: 603–611.
Gastrointestinal cramps
73. Müller-Krampe B, Oberbaum M, Dipl-Math PK, Weiser M. Effects of Spascupreel versus hyoscine
butylbromide for gastrointestinal cramps in children. Pediatrics International 2007; 49: 328–334.
Hay fever
74. Goossens M, Laekeman G, Aertgeerts B, Buntinx F. Evaluation of the quality of life after individualized
homeopathic treatment for seasonal allergic rhinitis. A prospective, open, non-comparative study.
Homeopathy 2009; 98: 11–16.
Headache
75. Walach H, Lowes T, Mussbach D, et al. The long term effects of homeopathic treatment of chronic headaches:
one year follow-up and single case time series analysis. British Homeopathic Journal 2001; 90: 63–72.
76. Witt CM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN. Homeopathic treatment of chronic headache (ICD-9: 784.0) - a
prospective observational study with 2-year follow-up. Forschende Komplementärmedizin 2009; 16:
227–235.
insomnia
77. Waldschütz R, Klein P. The homeopathic preparation Neurexan vs. valerian for the treatment of
insomnia: an observational study. Scientific World Journal 2009; 8: 411–420.
low back pain
78. Witt CM, Lüdtke R, Baur R, Willich SN. Homeopathic treatment of patients with chronic low back pain: a
prospective observational study with 2 years’ follow-up. Clinical Journal of Pain 2009; 25: 334–339.
musculo-skeletal injury
79. Schneider C, Schneider B, Hanisch J, van Haselen R. The role of a homoeopathic preparation
compared with conventional therapy in the treatment of injuries: an observational cohort study.
Complementary Therapies in Medicine 2008; 16: 22–27.
nervousness
80. Hubner R, van Haselen R, Klein P. Effectiveness of the homeopathic preparation Neurexan compared
with that of commonly used valerian-based preparations for the treatment of nervousness/restlessness –
an observational study. Scientific World Journal 2009; 9: 733–745.
otitis media
81. Friese K-H, Kruse S, Lüdtke R, Moeller H. The homoeopathic treatment of otitis media in children –
comparisons with conventional therapy. International Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics
1997; 35: 296–301.
Psoriasis
82. Witt CM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN. Homeopathic treatment of patients with psoriasis - a prospective
observational study with 2 years follow-up. Journal of the European Acadamy of Dermatology and
Venereology 2009; 23: 538–543.
respiratory tract infection
83. Ammerschlager H, Klein P, Weiser M, Oberbaum M. Behandlung von Entzündungen im Bereich der
oberen Atemwege – Vergleich eines homöopathischen Komplexpräparates mit Xylometazolin [Treatment
of inflammatory diseases of the upper respiratory tract – comparison of a homeopathic complex remedy
with xylometazoline]. Forschende Komplementärmedizin und Klassische Naturheilkunde 2005; 12: 24–31.
84. Haidvogl M, Riley DS, Heger M, et al. Homeopathic and conventional treatment for acute respiratory
and ear complaints: a comparative study on outcome in the primary care setting. BMC Complementary
and Alternative Medicine 2007; 7: 7.
Sinusitis
85. Witt CM, Lüdtke R, Willich SN. Homeopathic treatment of patients with chronic sinusitis: a prospective
observational study with 8 years follow-up. BMC Ear Nose and Throat Disorders 2009; 9: 7.
tendinopathy
86. Schneider C, Klein P, Stolt P, Oberbaum M. A homeopathic ointment preparation compared with 1%
diclofenac gel for acute symptomatic treatment of tendinopathy. Explore (NY) 2005; 1: 446–452.
vertigo
87. Klopp R, Niemer W, Weiser M. Microcirculatory effects of a homeopathic preparation in patients with
mild vertigo: an intravital microscopic study. Microvascular Research 2005; 69: 10–16.
viral infection
88. Rabe A, Weiser M, Klein P. Effectiveness and tolerability of a homoeopathic remedy compared with
conventional therapy for mild viral infections. International Journal of Clinical Practice 2004; 58: 827–832.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 22 Sep 2011, 10:11

Why don't you pick one that you think is particularly good and that is available for free online, and we can look at it as a forum? May make for good discussion.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 22 Sep 2011, 10:57

I can't do that. I'm really good with parapsychology and I understand those studies very well; I have a knack for that. However I have no ability to evaluate medical studies.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby really? » 22 Sep 2011, 21:25

Arouet:
Why don't you pick one that you think is particularly good


craig weiler
I can't do that.


May I suggest you don't state this
... there are numerous positive studies.
When you don't have the knowledge to do this
I have no ability to evaluate medical studies.


I assume you know the method for making homeopathic medicine and the factor of dilution. Since you do consider this.
One day you and your buddies decide to get drunk. You have a choice between homeopathic made beer of 30C dilution and normally fermented beer. Which beer do you choose ?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 22 Sep 2011, 22:36

I found a list of positive studies. There it is. Any claim that there are no positive studies is therefore false. I hear this claim all the time, and yet it is easy to disprove.

I think as well, that big pharma has created a lot of noise in the system making it hard to evaluate any of this for real. If you think that you could look at a scientific paper on homeopathic medical tests and tell the difference between a tightly controlled study and one that is poorly done, go for it.

In parapsychology at least, there are many references from independent objective sources that all state that the quality of experimentation in this field is extremely high. It is also to see why: it is constantly under attack. Anything less than the best just won't cut it.

In homeopathy, we have a different situation. It is attacked by a well funded and very aggressive drug industry intent on not sharing their profits. You would need to be an expert in this field to separate the clever disinformation from the real thing. I am not such an expert. I simply don't dismiss homeopathy on the grounds that I don't understand it.

You both attack homeopathy on the grounds that it makes no sense, but neither you nor Arouet know diddly squat about consciousness and its effect on the universe. You assume that you understand everything and therefore you feel that you are in a position to pass judgment. I don't claim to understand and therefore I don't judge it.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 22 Sep 2011, 23:54

craig weiler wrote:You both attack homeopathy on the grounds that it makes no sense, but neither you nor Arouet know diddly squat about consciousness and its effect on the universe. You assume that you understand everything and therefore you feel that you are in a position to pass judgment. I don't claim to understand and therefore I don't judge it.


Craig, with all due respect, you have expressed more certainty than either of us.

You assume that we assume we understand everything. I have no idea where you get that assumption from, since I don't think I've ever remotely even implied it!
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Craig Browning » 23 Sep 2011, 00:32

craig weiler
I found a list of positive studies. There it is. Any claim that there are no positive studies is therefore false. I hear this claim all the time, and yet it is easy to disprove.


Craig, you’re dealing with a “skeptic” the type of people that want you to take them by the hand to prove your position while they don’t listen or cooperate on any level, but rather consider how to twist your words, evidence and presentation. Their only goal tends to be centered on creating doubt in the mind of the “believer” and any others affected by the “conversation”

craig weiler
I think as well, that big pharma has created a lot of noise in the system making it hard to evaluate any of this for real. If you think that you could look at a scientific paper on homeopathic medical tests and tell the difference between a tightly controlled study and one that is poorly done, go for it.


In the Skeptic World all “science” is sound based on “peer reviews” etc. though they ignore the fact that the “peers” tend to also be on the same payroll as the original “researchers” which, in this instance, is pharmaceutical & chemical companies coupled with the AMA & FDA political muscle. To the naysayers, this is “proof” of something and yet, they will totally ignore the “war” during the 30’s & 40’s when it comes to homeopathic and alternative health treatments including Chiropractory, Massage Techniques (physical therapy) and “natural” medicines which, believe it or not, ended up “banned” from public access only to be turned into some sort of “break through treatment” a few years later, totally controlled and profited from by big Pharm. . . some of these remedies can no longer be legally grown in a person’s garden without the risk of legal prosecution; I wrote an article about this for Llewellyn Publications News Letter a few years ago.

craig weiler
In homeopathy, we have a different situation. It is attacked by a well funded and very aggressive drug industry intent on not sharing their profits. You would need to be an expert in this field to separate the clever disinformation from the real thing. I am not such an expert. I simply don't dismiss homeopathy on the grounds that I don't understand it.


As I said in the above. . .

craig weiler
You both attack homeopathy on the grounds that it makes no sense, but neither you nor Arouet know diddly squat about consciousness and its effect on the universe. You assume that you understand everything and therefore you feel that you are in a position to pass judgment. I don't claim to understand and therefore I don't judge it.

Arouet
Craig, with all due respect, you have expressed more certainty than either of us.

You assume that we assume we understand everything. I have no idea where you get that assumption from, since I don't think I've ever remotely even implied it!


Actually Arouet, you and a couple of others here simply imply such; I see it in the magic world constantly in that magicians buy into the delusion that says, “if we can replicate it, it must be fraudulent” and that’s a very bold statement of purest arrogance that the Skeptic’s world loves to use like a black-jack. But like most born-again cultists, the skeptic’s community encourage a holier than thou type of outward expression that is so structured as to impose the lie that “believers are fools, ignorant, gullible and incapable of critical thought” when it fact, most of the scientific break-throughs of the past two millennia were all made possible by men of a religious rank, including several occultists. . . and you know that I have a strong aversion when it comes to all modes of organized religion, so this isn’t a matter of personal favoritism, just historic fact.

Skeptics, just like their bible-beating counter-parts, don’t want to listen or find the common ground upon which the greater truth of things lays. They don’t want to believe in the manipulations that do on as the result of politics and money mongering, which is why one group of scientist prove one “fact” as others prove the contrary. . . just look at the whole climate danger situation, it’s enough to make one feel they are on Krypton in its last days.

The whole Beer drinking analogy is B.S. and you know it. Just like 90% of all cancer research in which lab animals are exposed to overly exaggerated doses of this and that so as to prove it dangerous (there’s money to be had in such proofs) your challenge stands on the sublime – outside the parameters of logic & reason. Yet, it’s a common ploy used by people that live by this cult-mind mode of processing via which they fool themselves into thinking they are intelligent and have the right to be smug.

Sometime “Intelligence” means coming down to earth and seeing things on a far more simplistic basis so you can “understand” the missing components as it were; the human element.

As I’ve said, I’m not a huge supporter of Homeopathic treatment in that it seems to be heavily over-priced, time consuming and “iffy” at best. This is based solely on my experience and yet, I know people who have genuinely benefitted from it; cancer & HIV patients in particular. So what gives me the right to condemn something that is working for them? Why should I be compelled to put them down and make them feel stupid just because my opinion and experience doesn’t match theirs?

This is the problem when it comes to skeptics; like Christian evangelic types they believe their opinion is the only one of value; the only “truth”, as it were.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 23 Sep 2011, 04:28

Arouet,
When it comes to homeopathy, I am a skeptic. That is, I am a real skeptic, not a pseudo-skeptic. I have expressed no certainty, I have merely given homeopathy the benefit of a fair hearing without prior judgment. It just looks to you like I favor it because you have not approached this area with real skepticism. You have decided ahead of time that the methods make no sense and therefore, these types of medicines cannot possibly be effective.

As I said earlier, you also know practically nothing about consciousness, so you're really not in a position to be evaluating this. I know a lot more than you do and I am therefore reserving judgment. The effects of consciousness on our world are far more significant than you realize.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 23 Sep 2011, 05:02

Sigh: Craig: maybe you should stop making assumptions about what people think and just have a discussion about an issue. It's getting a little tiresome. You have no idea what kind of knowledge I have about any of this stuff. It may very well be true that you have more knowledge than I do. But what's the point of coming onto a forum and just telling people that you have more knowledge than they do and therefore you're not going to discuss these things - plus throwing in some insults to boot.

To be clear, there is very little that I am certain about. I prefer to think in terms of degrees of confidence or probabilities. I do not like the word "impossible" in most situations. I do not believe that science has figured everything out or that there are physical laws that we might have yet to discover. I have no problem with the notion of psi (I was an avid fantasy reader).

instead of just saying: I know more than you, why not put something forward for discussion? that's what a forum is for? Otherwise, why are you here?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby really? » 23 Sep 2011, 05:22

Craig Browning wrote:The whole Beer drinking analogy is B.S. and you know it.



Ok, beer ain't your libation of choice perhaps scotch whisky. So which is it 30C homeopathic scotch whisky or normally made 20 proof scotch whisky ?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby really? » 23 Sep 2011, 05:26

Arouet wrote:Sigh: Craig: maybe you should stop making assumptions about what people think and just have a discussion about an issue. It's getting a little tiresome. You have no idea what kind of knowledge I have about any of this stuff. It may very well be true that you have more knowledge than I do. But what's the point of coming onto a forum and just telling people that you have more knowledge than they do and therefore you're not going to discuss these things - plus throwing in some insults to boot.

To be clear, there is very little that I am certain about. I prefer to think in terms of degrees of confidence or probabilities. I do not like the word "impossible" in most situations. I do not believe that science has figured everything out or that there are physical laws that we might have yet to discover. I have no problem with the notion of psi (I was an avid fantasy reader).

instead of just saying: I know more than you, why not put something forward for discussion? that's what a forum is for? Otherwise, why are you here?


Doesn't it get tiresome to always be called too stupid to understand anything ?
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby Arouet » 23 Sep 2011, 05:29

Don't forget closed-minded! :)
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Re: Homeopathy just doesn't work - It's a failure

Postby craig weiler » 23 Sep 2011, 06:50

really?
I didn't say that you were too stupid or close minded, but rather that you are uninformed about consciousness and therefore not in a position to judge homeopathy. I am much more informed about consciousness and therefore I withhold judgment about homeopathy because I have enough information to know that there are other ways that it could be explained.
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