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Who would you believe

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Who would you believe

Postby yellowlawn » 18 Nov 2009, 07:39

If someone came to you with a story of a detailed encounter with the afterlife, then you would deal with it depending on your own ideals of skeptic or believer. Now what if that person was a Lawyer, Doctor, Police Officer, MP, Judge, Scientist, Sports Personality, Celebrity etc etc would it change your standing? As I'm quite sure the Paranormal Investigators on here could provide you with a story from anyone or all those people in there various professions.
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby ciscop » 18 Nov 2009, 09:40

yellowlawn wrote:If someone came to you with a story of a detailed encounter with the afterlife, then you would deal with it depending on your own ideals of skeptic or believer. Now what if that person was a Lawyer, Doctor, Police Officer, MP, Judge, Scientist, Sports Personality, Celebrity etc etc would it change your standing? As I'm quite sure the Paranormal Investigators on here could provide you with a story from anyone or all those people in there various professions.


Never trust a LAWYER!!

just kidding...
i wouldnt jump for conclussion just becuse somebody has a degree or a profession
is funny you ask this..
i think thats a huge difference between skeptics and believers
believers like scescop are always taking in mind the credentials of somebody... ¨he is an expert of 911¨, really says who??
¨he is a charming, sweet person that has no reason to lie¨ says who???
while skeptics are actually reviewing the data (not the story)

stories are stories.. and just that

Big Clarence.. from Bruce Springsteen´s the E Street Band
told a story of a NDE on Howard Stern like a month ago...
Now.. i like Clarence.. but i now NDE´s are trick of the brains since i read about those in a scientific american journals..
so i dont care about what the big guy said.. i care about what science and our understanding told us he had.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby brett » 18 Nov 2009, 19:56

who someone is ( or thinks they are ) makes no difference to the truth - and personally i don't trust anyone who flaunts "professional" qualifications and makes them think they are a someone - there are MANY clever and educated people out there who never went to uni and don't have a qualification to their name - but they have experience of life - counts for a lot in my book

couple of examples from my days in the fire service - some Muppet came up with the idea of "graduate entry " officers some years ago , the plan was shelved owing to the ground swell of hostility to a plainly daft idea by the guys on the sharp end or as one succinctly put it " we ain't having no F****** snot nose kids with a degree telling us who have to do this s*** how to do it !! " and most of us who had been in the job for some time agreed - in fact we considered the whole plan a sure way to get guys killed !! - well the force of feeling soon put a stop to the idea and its not been mooted since as far as i know

and as any of you who are "practical " people will ( or should ) know - having a degree or PhD is no sure sign of practical ability - i had a guy on my station , more letters after his name than i had hot dinners - good at "theory" - but totally crap at anything practical , and conversely , guys who could "read ,write and drive tractors" bloody brilliant , could strip a fire pump down at the side of the road with a pair of mole-grips and get it working - i sure as heck know WHO I would want covering my back in a crisis

and there are many classic examples of incompetence by supposedly "edumacated " people throughout history - - take the officers of the first world war - the ruling class - went to oxford y know - got a whole load of people killed through inflexible thinking !!

and the one thing i REALLY hate is when some non entity asks you " DO YOU know who I am ?? " - my usual reply is don't know , don't care and you must be very insecure to even be asking that question " - and believe me i have hacked off quite a few supposedly important people in my time :lol: - oh they don't like it if people don't fawn all over them or kowtow to their supposed importance

at the end of the day - you can be as full of "piss and importance" as you like , but if you are no good in a practical situation , then you become part of the problem - not part of the solution - if push comes to shove ever - it wont be the phDs that save the world - it will be the "little" people - the uneducated erks who will do that - mark my words

so to quote a great line from a film when all the experts rolled up with a plan that was way too complex fro a simple problem " why don't you people just stick to what you are good at ?? - taking something simple and complicating it !!"" :lol: :lol:

truly as someone observed "education , is wasted on the young "

and i always say - they always promote people to the maximum level of incompetence - that's why all the really clever people are on the shop floor ;)

supposed position or qualifications mean little peeps - never be impressed by tittles - go on results !!
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby Hellboy » 19 Nov 2009, 04:48

Csicop wrote:
i wouldnt jump for conclussion just becuse somebody has a degree or a profession


Neither would I.

i think thats a huge difference between skeptics and believers


Really, its all black and white in your world is it not csicop? Funny that real life doesn’t seem to operate within such inflexible
parameters.

Now.. i like Clarence.. but i now NDE´s are trick of the brains


I agree that NDE'S are probably the result of brain injury or severe trauma. However the exact mechanisms are still not fully understood. There are some studies that are currently being carried out in hospitals around the UK. However these studies are more or less designed to see if a cardiac arrest victim can perceive outside of the body while apparently clinically dead.
There are some serious flaws with this approach; however I will not go into that for the moment.

since i read about those in a scientific american journals..
so i dont care about what the big guy said.. i care about what science and our understanding told us he had.



Are you not contradicting yourself here? Reference your first quote, yet you are quite willing to accept the scientific journal without question! :? A huge part of science is asking questions, not following blindly! Leave that crap to the cult leaders and other abhorrent individuals/organisations. The journal may be incorrect or even lacking in enough data to form a truly unbiased judgment.


Brett wrote:
who someone is ( or thinks they are ) makes no difference to the truth - and personally i don't trust anyone who flaunts "professional" qualifications and makes them think they are a someone - there are MANY clever and educated people out there who never went to uni and don't have a qualification to their name - but they have experience of life - counts for a lot in my book


To an extent I agree, however There are people that I do do admire from a purely academic basis, one of which is good friend. There are lots of normal Dr's , Professors , researchers and assorted ologists out there Brett, who do not have a god complex and are prepared to question there own stance and beliefs.

However, to and extent experience can be an invaluable teacher and more can be learned by direct doing and exposure. A lot depends on the individual and the way they may have been brought up.

I must agree with Brett (This is probably a UK thing), that there are lot of so called experts in positions of power and influence. That are absolutely useless in their own chosen field, in fact from my own experience and yours no doubt. These sorts of fools are usually promoted, either to:

(a) Get them out of the way, so they cannot cause damage.

(b) They are usually yes men, who will jump no matter how high his/hers superiors ask them to jump.

Such types of people in my experience are usually creatively inert and throughout their career is nothing but a waste of space! They survive through a blend of stealth, lying, spying, pettiness and serious cock sucking. :lol:

However much one loathes such individuals and what they represent, they still serve some function. I.e. -to keep similar types in employment and in positions of power! :lol: ;)

Rant over
csicop wrote:
i wouldnt jump for conclussion just becuse somebody has a degree or a profession


Neither would I.

i think thats a huge difference between skeptics and believers


Really, its all black and white in your world saint it csicop, funny that real life doesn’t seem to operate within such inflexible
parameters.

Now.. i like Clarence.. but i now NDE´s are trick of the brains


I agree that NDE'S are probably the result of brain injury or severe trauma. However the exact mechanisms are still not fully understood. There are some studies that are currently being carried out in hospitals around the UK. However these studies are more or less designed to see if a cardiac arrest victim can perceive outside of the body while apparently clinically dead.
There are some serious flaws with this approach; however I will not go into that for the moment.

since i read about those in a scientific american journals..
so i dont care about what the big guy said.. i care about what science and our understanding told us he had.



Are you not contradicting yourself here? Reference your first quote, yet you are quite willing to accept the scientific journal without question! :? A huge part of science is asking questions, not following blindly! Leave that crap to the cult leaders and other abhorrent individuals/organisations. The journal may be incorrect or even lacking in enough data to form a truly unbiased judgment.


Brett wrote:
who someone is ( or thinks they are ) makes no difference to the truth - and personally i don't trust anyone who flaunts "professional" qualifications and makes them think they are a someone - there are MANY clever and educated people out there who never went to uni and don't have a qualification to their name - but they have experience of life - counts for a lot in my book


To an extent I agree, however There are people that I do do admire from a purely academic basis, one of which is good friend. There are lots of normal Dr's , Professors , researchers and assorted ologists out there Brett, who do not have a god complex and are prepared to question there own stance and beliefs.

However, to and extent experience can be an invaluable teacher and more can be learned by direct doing and exposure. A lot depends on the individual and the way they may have been brought up.

I must agree with Brett (This is probably a UK thing), that there are lot of so called experts in positions of power and influence. That are absolutely useless in their own chosen field, in fact from my own experience and yours no doubt. These sorts of fools are usually promoted, either to:

(a) Get them out of the way, so they cannot cause damage.

(b) They are usually yes men, who will jump no matter how high his/hers superiors ask them to jump.

Such types of people in my experience are usually creatively inert and throughout their career is nothing but a waste of space! They survive through a blend of stealth, lying, spying, pettiness and serious cock sucking. :lol:

However much one loathes such individuals and what they represent, they still serve some function. I.e. -to keep similar types in employment and in positions of power! :lol: ;)

Rant over
csicop wrote:
i wouldnt jump for conclussion just becuse somebody has a degree or a profession


Neither would I.

i think thats a huge difference between skeptics and believers


Really, its all black and white in your world saint it csicop, funny that real life doesn’t seem to operate within such inflexible
parameters.

Now.. i like Clarence.. but i now NDE´s are trick of the brains


I agree that NDE'S are probably the result of brain injury or severe trauma. However the exact mechanisms are still not fully understood. There are some studies that are currently being carried out in hospitals around the UK. However these studies are more or less designed to see if a cardiac arrest victim can perceive outside of the body while apparently clinically dead.
There are some serious flaws with this approach; however I will not go into that for the moment.

since i read about those in a scientific american journals..
so i dont care about what the big guy said.. i care about what science and our understanding told us he had.



Are you not contradicting yourself here? Reference your first quote, yet you are quite willing to accept the scientific journal without question! :? A huge part of science is asking questions, not following blindly! Leave that crap to the cult leaders and other abhorrent individuals/organisations. The journal may be incorrect or even lacking in enough data to form a truly unbiased judgment.


Brett wrote:
who someone is ( or thinks they are ) makes no difference to the truth - and personally i don't trust anyone who flaunts "professional" qualifications and makes them think they are a someone - there are MANY clever and educated people out there who never went to uni and don't have a qualification to their name - but they have experience of life - counts for a lot in my book


To an extent I agree, however There are people that I do do admire from a purely academic basis, one of which is good friend. There are lots of normal Dr's , Professors , researchers and assorted ologists out there Brett, who do not have a god complex and are prepared to question there own stance and beliefs.

However, to and extent experience can be an invaluable teacher and more can be learned by direct doing and exposure. A lot depends on the individual and the way they may have been brought up.

I must agree with Brett (This is probably a UK thing), that there are lot of so called experts in positions of power and influence. That are absolutely useless in their own chosen field, in fact from my own experience and yours no doubt. These sorts of fools are usually promoted, either to:

(a) Get them out of the way, so they cannot cause damage.

(b) They are usually yes men, who will jump no matter how high his/hers superiors ask them to jump.

Such types of people in my experience are usually creatively inert and throughout their career is nothing but a waste of space! They survive through a blend of stealth, lying, spying, pettiness and serious cock sucking. :lol:

However much one loathes such individuals and what they represent, they still serve some function. I.e. -to keep similar types in employment and in positions of power! :lol: ;)

Rant over
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby brett » 19 Nov 2009, 15:22

hellboy said " To an extent I agree, however There are people that I do do admire from a purely academic basis, one of which is good friend. There are lots of normal Dr's , Professors , researchers and assorted ologists out there Brett, who do not have a god complex and are prepared to question there own stance and beliefs."

yea HB but we both know one " Dr " we both don't admire and know is the biggest egotistical t*** going ( actually that"s an insult to a t*** , as they are useful ) - ,has a MAJOR "god complex" , and is about as much use to this planet as piles are :lol: :lol: :lol: ;) ( you know of whom i refer :roll: )
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby Hellboy » 19 Nov 2009, 17:39

yea HB but we both know one " Dr " we both don't admire and know is the biggest egotistical t*** going ( actually that"s an insult to a t*** , as they are useful ) - ,has a MAJOR "god complex" , and is about as much use to this planet as piles are ( you know of whom i refer )


Ahhhh yes, the insufferable egotistical numpty, I knew him well. :lol: ;)
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby ciscop » 19 Nov 2009, 19:47

Hellboy wrote:
yea HB but we both know one " Dr " we both don't admire and know is the biggest egotistical t*** going ( actually that"s an insult to a t*** , as they are useful ) - ,has a MAJOR "god complex" , and is about as much use to this planet as piles are ( you know of whom i refer )


Ahhhh yes, the insufferable egotistical numpty, I knew him well. :lol: ;)



uuh.. i never said it was all black and white in the world
i was just illustrating a difference i have seen here between skeptics and believers which is just a personal comment not a study, in both fields there's people involve so its kind of difficult if it isnt impossible to draw ULTIMATE CONCLUSSIONS.. just like freud's theories doesnt apply to everyone (or nobody?)
not sure if you understand that hellboy,
i think that might be a projection on your part actually

:D
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby Hellboy » 19 Nov 2009, 20:42

Csicop wrote:
uuh.. i never said it was all black and white in the world
i was just illustrating a difference i have seen here between skeptics and believers which is just a personal comment not a study, in both fields there's people involve so its kind of difficult if it isnt impossible to draw ULTIMATE CONCLUSSIONS.. just like freud's theories doesnt apply to everyone (or nobody?)
not sure if you understand that hellboy,


It is difficult to understand what you are on about most of the time csicop! My previous contact with you via this forum, has yielded little, apart from you making false assumptions about my position and you firing off indiscriminate insults.

You are making the assumptions that believers automatically believe something is true because some one in authority says so.
Yet a self confessed skeptic does not! Hang on a minute. First, not all believers (whatever that is supposed to mean) act in such a manner neither do all skeptics, as evidenced by your own post! :lol: Therefore you making statements such as:

Csicop wrote:
i wouldnt jump for conclussion just becuse somebody has a degree or a profession


Neither would I.


i think thats a huge difference between skeptics and believers


Clearly shows your opinion is of the black and white variety. Therefore it is not a projection on my part, if you cannot be bothered to expand on what you mean concisely then what do you expect! After all I am not psychic! :lol:

BTW what has this quote got to do with it?

Hellboy wrote:
yea HB but we both know one " Dr " we both don't admire and know is the biggest egotistical t*** going ( actually that"s an insult to a t*** , as they are useful ) - ,has a MAJOR "god complex" , and is about as much use to this planet as piles are ( you know of whom i refer )

Ahhhh yes, the insufferable egotistical numpty, I knew him well.


While you are at it, care to address my other points raised in the post?
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby ProfWag » 20 Nov 2009, 00:04

yellowlawn wrote:If someone came to you with a story of a detailed encounter with the afterlife, then you would deal with it depending on your own ideals of skeptic or believer. Now what if that person was a Lawyer, Doctor, Police Officer, MP, Judge, Scientist, Sports Personality, Celebrity etc etc would it change your standing? As I'm quite sure the Paranormal Investigators on here could provide you with a story from anyone or all those people in there various professions.

I would believe virtually anybody if they told me of a detailed encounter with the afterlife, regardless of who they are. Doesn't mean they did, but they could very well believe that they did.
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby brett » 21 Nov 2009, 01:59

no ciscop - we have VERY good reasons for maligning this particular individual ( its a bit of an "in " joke ) - a most unpleasant pseudoskeptic of the worst kind , whom we are unfortunately acquainted with ,here in the UK -( this one really DOES give ALL skeptics a bad name :roll: ) compared to him - you are a pussycat :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby ciscop » 21 Nov 2009, 04:59

brett wrote:no ciscop - we have VERY good reasons for maligning this particular individual ( its a bit of an "in " joke ) - a most unpleasant pseudoskeptic of the worst kind , whom we are unfortunately acquainted with ,here in the UK -( this one really DOES give ALL skeptics a bad name :roll: ) compared to him - you are a pussycat :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

:lol: :lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 17 Oct 2010, 10:06

I am getting the range of some people here. I think I have yours, Ciscop :). You are the one who is saved from "pseudo-skepticism" by having the ability to laugh at yourself with others, as witness the beautiful variety of icons in your post above ;) You are the court jester when King Lear, George III and Ludwig of Bavaria met! :) !

Re topic. As a "doubting thomas" I would doubt anyone who spoke in any of those capacities as they are all professional liars. I'll stick with the fools and the deluded. They are more trustworthy.

Fools and the deluded, I assume are telling what they remember of experiential truth, but even then, as a doubting thomas, i want to see touch and feel before I believe, because the end of that slope is a cliff.
"What's so Funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
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Re: Who would you believe

Postby Craig Browning » 18 Oct 2010, 02:09

Re topic. As a "doubting thomas" I would doubt anyone who spoke in any of those capacities as they are all professional liars. I'll stick with the fools and the deluded. They are more trustworthy.

Fools and the deluded, I assume are telling what they remember of experiential truth, but even then, as a doubting thomas, i want to see touch and feel before I believe, because the end of that slope is a cliff.


I once did a parody talk about how going to college was nothing more than a creative way to teach people how to lie in creative ways that make their claims sound legit. Let's face it, nearly all professional fields that have a sense of public profile are known for their deceptions; doctors, lawyers, statisticians, preachers... I can't think of a single sort that don't fit this truth. At least with those of "lower" education you are getting a more heart-felt sense of honesty.

I have had ghostly encounters that I have to deem to be just that... I'd think I have sufficient background to be able to find alternative explanations for most such claims but not all. When you have piano playing and singing in a room that is totally empty but USED TO HAVE a piano in it... When you have animals reacting to things in one part of the property only for you and others that are with you to see a person hanging from a tree from a lynching... Or maybe you are on a site seeing tour of a historic location only to sense key events and emotions tied to specific points in the tour... the exact same "memories" and "sensations" others have had at those exact spots at which historically documented events happened which match those sensations.

Sorry, but science can't explain it all away. Some day the skeptics will wake up to realize you can't tie-down and analyze everything in a lab or based on the parameters we have learned to limit ourselves to... the world isn't as anally rigid. :twisted:
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