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Clueless Ghost Skeptics

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Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby Eteponge » 09 Oct 2009, 02:42

A Skeptic on a Facebook Group recently stated the following in a Ghost Topic ...

"I just find it odd that only people who believe in the paranormal are ever witness to it. I've seen the diminished capacity that people in a superstitious rant display. They attribute small things to the paranormal. And two kids, convinced that there's a ghost around, convince themselves that the dishes weren't there before.

But "hauntings" are never anything more than a creaking house, mouse or raccoon problem, wind whistling through an exhaust vent and changes in air pressure within the house that occasionally open a door or two. I have watched people convince themselves of some seriously odd things while in a state of supernatural hysteria."


One who believes that *everything* Apparition / Haunting related can universally be adequately explained away by those simple easily checkable things hasn't done any amount of honest serious research on the topic whatsoever. In any *SERIOUS* investigation / research into a case, those are the VERY FIRST things considered, checked, and discounted (if applicable). This person obviously isn't aware of those many documented cases where all of the natural explanations are checked and ruled out and found to not match an explanation for whatever is going on. Any researcher with a lick of common sense would check out all of the natural explanations first and foremost, before jumping to paranormal conclusions.

The remark about "I just find it odd that only people who believe in the paranormal are ever witness to it" is a total BS strawman. There are MANY cases of people who did not believe in Ghosts, Hauntings, Etc, and were highly skeptical of such things who then eventually directly experienced it. Many of the best documented apparition / haunting cases you will find are of former skeptics' experiences.

Unless he is asking why only those who believe in the paranormal have paranormal experiences (which is a trap statement that goes like this: If you were a skeptic, and had a paranormal experience, and believe it was indeed paranormal, you are not a "skeptic", and are therefore classified as a "believer", as "only believers have paranormal experiences" a trap statement), which is just as silly as asking why only non-virgins have had sex, and why no virgins have ever had sex, because they aren't virgins anymore you brainless idiot.
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby NinjaPuppy » 09 Oct 2009, 03:00

I particularly liked this sentence: "I've seen the diminished capacity that people in a superstitious rant display."

Isn't that special? Diminished capacity??? Superstitious rant??? What is superstitious about trying to explain something that you have personally experienced? I supposed that this person feels that anyone who believes that ghosts exists (based on their beliefs for whatever personal reasons they may have) have diminished capacity? So only stupid people believe in ghosts, so to speak.
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby brett » 09 Oct 2009, 03:24

well this person should have first hand experience of contacting the dead if he is on face book ,twitter , etc :lol: :lol: :lol: ( the BRAIN dead that is )

have you noticed that the pskeptics are using every means available to spread THEIR version of the truth ?? - not satisfied with the normal channels and multitudinous websites , they have to use ALL available avenues - what DRIVES these people ?? - these experts , who seem to know it all - is this some sinister plot to stop anyone using their brains to figure things out for themselves ?? - part of the NWO diktat that no one must think - examine - question the word of the enlightened ones ??

ooops sorry - i am starting to sound all paranoid - naughty - naughty - must go flagellate my self with a copy of skeptics weekly until i reform .............. :lol: :lol:

( Brett is NOT on ANY social networking sites BTW - a few forums - but no twittering ** or face booking for me - no sir :o )

* i have several cockatiels and a parrot to do all the twittering in this house that is required - so there !!
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby ciscop » 09 Oct 2009, 05:47

i went to a " haunted " house once
turns out it wasnt haunted....

to make the story short
there were people inside.. they scare the hell out of us.. they were
ACTUAL LIVING PEOPLE
and me and my friends were trasspassing, the house wasnt haunted nor abandoned!..

we could have been arrested if it wasnt that we were teenagers and they let us go

true story..

:lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby The Warrigal » 09 Oct 2009, 08:39

I agree that this sort of nonsense is NOT sceptism but is it only too typical of those ignorant bigots who choose to hide their fundamentalist biases under the euphemism of "scepticism."

I know several people aside from myself who were non-believers in paranormal phenomena until we all had own own personal brush with it.

And if the explanations were as simple as those given then there would'nt be any debate on these matters.

Trying to get to the bottom of any inexplicable phenomena, discern it's cause and find out why it behaves as it does is what I in my uneducated mind thought science was always about.

Evidently I was wrong.

When confronted with rare phenomena I must NEVER try to find out what it is.

The "scientific" thing to do here is close my eyes and shout: - "NOT REAL! - NOT REAL!" :roll:
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby The Warrigal » 09 Oct 2009, 09:03

Ciscop.

Your story reminds me of something which happened to some school friends of mine when we were all about twelve or so.

Halloween is a pretty recent import to Australia and wasn't celebrated then so if kids wanted to play at something a bit spooky Friday 13 was the date to do it.

So on midnight that date some of the stoughter hearted of our mates went exploring in an abandonded mental hospital rumoured to be haunted.

No ghosts did our intrepid young advenurers find nor any bad tempered squatters either, but what they did find was arguably more disturbing to young minds than creepy atmospherics.

In on of the basement rooms of the old hospital the kids found scores of cardboard boxes filled with documents of the former patients of the facility.

Just looking at the photographs of those tormented wretches who had once been confined there was enough to even most devil-may-care of young lads feel a sense of sorrow for those people and their families.

The lads started out feeling very bold and full of bravado, but finished their adventure feeling as if they had been intruding into the most private realms of other peoples lives and morbidly snooping into the private hell in which so many humans are condemnded to live.

And I do agree with you.

People have more cause to fear some of the living on this earth than they need ever fear the dead.
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby ProfWag » 13 Oct 2009, 21:55

Believe it or not, for the most part I agree with you Eteponge on your assessment of that post. Unfortunately, although Brett is partially true on his statement about skeptics using everything possible to get their version of the truth out, that also holds true for non-skeptical believers as well, i.e. heavily edited TV shows, forums, web sites, billboards, talk shows, yadda yadda yadda.
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Oct 2009, 23:07

ProfWag wrote:Believe it or not, for the most part I agree with you Eteponge on your assessment of that post. Unfortunately, although Brett is partially true on his statement about skeptics using everything possible to get their version of the truth out, that also holds true for non-skeptical believers as well, i.e. heavily edited TV shows, forums, web sites, billboards, talk shows, yadda yadda yadda.


To say that, "skeptics using everything possible to get their version of the 'truth' out" implies that skeptics have a version of 'truth'. I believe that with ghosts we have theories, ideas, beliefs, personal experiences and the like, but isn't it the skeptics who refuse to accept any of that as 'truth'? So aren't you really saying that the truth is that skeptics believe there is no such thing as ghosts because it hasn't yet been proven to the standards of science?

Hence, there is no proof that ghosts don't exist, can't prove a negative is what I'm always told. So does that mean you can never prove a negative? Gawd! How I love the English language. :lol:
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby ProfWag » 14 Oct 2009, 00:22

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Believe it or not, for the most part I agree with you Eteponge on your assessment of that post. Unfortunately, although Brett is partially true on his statement about skeptics using everything possible to get their version of the truth out, that also holds true for non-skeptical believers as well, i.e. heavily edited TV shows, forums, web sites, billboards, talk shows, yadda yadda yadda.


To say that, "skeptics using everything possible to get their version of the 'truth' out" implies that skeptics have a version of 'truth'. I believe that with ghosts we have theories, ideas, beliefs, personal experiences and the like, but isn't it the skeptics who refuse to accept any of that as 'truth'? So aren't you really saying that the truth is that skeptics believe there is no such thing as ghosts because it hasn't yet been proven to the standards of science?

Hence, there is no proof that ghosts don't exist, can't prove a negative is what I'm always told. So does that mean you can never prove a negative? Gawd! How I love the English language. :lol:

By golly, you just might be on to something there Ninja.
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby ciscop » 14 Oct 2009, 01:54

The Warrigal wrote:Ciscop.

Your story reminds me of something which happened to some school friends of mine when we were all about twelve or so.

Halloween is a pretty recent import to Australia and wasn't celebrated then so if kids wanted to play at something a bit spooky Friday 13 was the date to do it.

So on midnight that date some of the stoughter hearted of our mates went exploring in an abandonded mental hospital rumoured to be haunted.

No ghosts did our intrepid young advenurers find nor any bad tempered squatters either, but what they did find was arguably more disturbing to young minds than creepy atmospherics.

In on of the basement rooms of the old hospital the kids found scores of cardboard boxes filled with documents of the former patients of the facility.

Just looking at the photographs of those tormented wretches who had once been confined there was enough to even most devil-may-care of young lads feel a sense of sorrow for those people and their families.

The lads started out feeling very bold and full of bravado, but finished their adventure feeling as if they had been intruding into the most private realms of other peoples lives and morbidly snooping into the private hell in which so many humans are condemnded to live.

And I do agree with you.

People have more cause to fear some of the living on this earth than they need ever fear the dead.


oooooooh wow!!
thats an amazing story!! thats creepy!.. just the lines ¨basement of a mental hospital¨ gives me the chills..

i also didnt know aussies celebrated the friday the 13th
pretty cool..
since i am from northern mexico
we are pretty much americanized.. so we do have halloween parties around here
while in the south they celebrate the 2 of november which is ¨El dia de los muertos¨ (day of the dead)
which to me is quite cool, people go to cementeries and leave food to their dead relatives.. is kind of cool..
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby brett » 14 Oct 2009, 11:37

may be "their version of the truth " was not a good term to use ?? - ( forgive my inelegance in putting my thoughts down in type ) - OK lets try again , we all know that according to the sceptics " anecdotal evidence " is not acceptable as it cant be "proven " to the satisfaction of the thing we loosely term as "science " ( which covers a multitude of sins :lol: ) in that the results of the "observation " are not repeatable under "scientific " conditions , but how does one repeat a one off event ??

no my problem with the skeptics - is this attitude of its not possible because WE have not witnessed it - and even if we did - we would STILL dismiss it as delusion ( insert what ever term you want here ) - and that those reporting a one off phenomena - possibly witnessed ONLY by them , must be somehow crazy , delusional etc etc - ignoring the possibility that the witness HAS factually reported an event which WAS real and was NOT an hallucination etc etc , thus implying that anyone who has had ,or believes in the possibility of such rare events happening - is crazy ( by their so perfect standards ?? )

( at this point i will remind you all of the old adage that " the truth is sill the truth , even IF that truth is known ONLY to one person " )

and lets be fair here - there ARE some out there who would dismiss ( for example ) a UFO landing on the lawn of the white house and the occupants being greeted by the president on world TV as a hoax ,( heck some say the moon landings where faked ) - because they could not go poke the aliens and satisfy themselves they WHERE real - or that the event could not be replicated under controlled conditions ( OK very extreme example here - but you get my drift )

so basically its a "no win " situation for ALL sides at the moment - we the "believers" cant PROVE the existence of ghosts - whilst the skeptical can not PROVE they don't exist - as how DO you find a level of evidence that will satisfy every one on earth ?? - its like religion , i often wonder how many skeptics are "religious" which implies "faith" ?? the very thing we believers are slated for having

i guess at the end of the day - when we do die - then and only then will we know if any of us where right or wrong ?? - and about half of us are gonna be mighty disappointed ;)

in the mean time , i suppose it keeps us ,sceptic and believer alike amused :D

ho hum ....................
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Oct 2009, 12:10

Brett wrote:i guess at the end of the day - when we do die - then and only then will we know if any of us where right or wrong ?? - and about half of us are gonna be mighty disappointed

Love it! Now we just need to debate which half. :lol:
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby ProfWag » 14 Oct 2009, 21:16

brett wrote:may be "their version of the truth " was not a good term to use ?? - ( forgive my inelegance in putting my thoughts down in type ) - OK lets try again , we all know that according to the sceptics " anecdotal evidence " is not acceptable as it cant be "proven " to the satisfaction of the thing we loosely term as "science " ( which covers a multitude of sins :lol: ) in that the results of the "observation " are not repeatable under "scientific " conditions , but how does one repeat a one off event ??

no my problem with the skeptics - is this attitude of its not possible because WE have not witnessed it - and even if we did - we would STILL dismiss it as delusion ( insert what ever term you want here ) - and that those reporting a one off phenomena - possibly witnessed ONLY by them , must be somehow crazy , delusional etc etc - ignoring the possibility that the witness HAS factually reported an event which WAS real and was NOT an hallucination etc etc , thus implying that anyone who has had ,or believes in the possibility of such rare events happening - is crazy ( by their so perfect standards ?? )

( at this point i will remind you all of the old adage that " the truth is sill the truth , even IF that truth is known ONLY to one person " )

and lets be fair here - there ARE some out there who would dismiss ( for example ) a UFO landing on the lawn of the white house and the occupants being greeted by the president on world TV as a hoax ,( heck some say the moon landings where faked ) - because they could not go poke the aliens and satisfy themselves they WHERE real - or that the event could not be replicated under controlled conditions ( OK very extreme example here - but you get my drift )

so basically its a "no win " situation for ALL sides at the moment - we the "believers" cant PROVE the existence of ghosts - whilst the skeptical can not PROVE they don't exist - as how DO you find a level of evidence that will satisfy every one on earth ?? - its like religion , i often wonder how many skeptics are "religious" which implies "faith" ?? the very thing we believers are slated for having

i guess at the end of the day - when we do die - then and only then will we know if any of us where right or wrong ?? - and about half of us are gonna be mighty disappointed ;)

in the mean time , i suppose it keeps us ,sceptic and believer alike amused :D

ho hum ....................

I agree to an extent and disagree to an extent. I do think that ghosts could be proven if they were "real." If they were, it would also open the door to afterlife existance, a god, and mediums all being quite plausable. Personally, I would LOVE to see proof of an afterlife. I also believe that if an alien spacecraft landed at the White House, most skeptics would accept that as factual and we would move on to other things. I also think that some skeptics do have a personal religion or a god that they believe in. It's certainly comforting. I'll be the first to admit that when my parents died earlier this year, I prayed that they made it to heaven. It's more comforting and helps the healing process than standing at their grave knowing that they are just rotting away. However, deep down, I firmly believe that we are born and we die, with nothing floating up into the big blue sky and clouds. Besides, if there were a heaven, then that means my Mom now knows what I do in the bedroom...what a thought, huh?
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby brett » 14 Oct 2009, 22:29

firstly prof , my condolences on the loss of your parents - i know from loosing my wife 3 years ago nearly that its a thing we all have to face up to in some form , but it never makes it any easier :(

i think one of the main problems with all this is the confusing of the idea of "heaven" ( a religious based portrayal ) - with what i term "continuance " - in that i believe we DO all survive death - in some form - and that continuance is probably nothing like the mythical "heaven" we are all taught about when young

what i will say to you prof is do keep an open mind - as many people who did not believe in any form of continuance , will relate experiences of contact by deceased relatives - my mother for instance - used to be the same as you - that's it - nothing more once you go - UNTILL my father who had passed some 30 years previous , manifested fully to her one day - and i don't believe she is either delusional or tells lies , so you never know :? - just keep that small space open in your mind for possibilities
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Re: Clueless Ghost Skeptics

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Oct 2009, 23:35

ProfWag wrote:I agree to an extent and disagree to an extent. I do think that ghosts could be proven if they were "real." If they were, it would also open the door to afterlife existance, a god, and mediums all being quite plausable.

Now here's where I disagree. Basically it's with the word 'afterlife'. Suppose that our energy/matter (or spirit, soul, whatever term you want to stick in here) has always been floating around. The biological form it decides to take is merely a blip in time compared to eternity. So after a particular biological shell has expired, our energy/matter floats around again, maybe even mixes with some other matter on some cosmic e-harmony, dating plane, and decides to find another 'job' so it starts all over again in another biological form. Far fetched? Oh yeah. But it makes more sense to me than some old guy with a white beard orchestrating our fate. (and no, I don't mean Randi) :lol:

This is pretty close to what I'm trying to say but remove any hint of religion or God from the explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(esotericism)
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