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If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Discussions about Afterlife Research, Survival Science, Near Death Experiences, Out of Body Experiences, Spirit Communication, Mediumship, Ghosts, Spirits, etc.

Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby leo100 » 01 Jul 2010, 08:34

really? wrote:
leo100 wrote:Physiology gives the indication that their is no soul, only mind and brain. This mind being a process of the brain. However, once you step outside conventional wisdom that their is no soul when it comes to neuroscience then you start to see that the conventional wisdom may not be correct. Evidence for survival of bodily death and psi phenomena indicate strongly, that the view that mind is a process of the brain ignores any evidence to the contrary. This is a easy way to avoid the possible conclusion itself.


It is said by a large number of neuroscientists that mind is a process of the brain and that evidence has been dramatically increases more and more as time goes on. Especially in the advent of fmri's. The problem is their is obviously more than one way to look at the evidence accumulated. The materialist will say that the theory that mind is filter, received by the brain instead of produced by the brain can be shaved off. That the view that mind is produced by the brain is simpler way of looking at the very strong correlations of mind and brain. True it's simpler, but does it account for all phenomena. A good theory should not just account for what it can account for but should be able to cover all well attested phenomena.


The mind is what the brain creates. That is the least complicated explanation
What well attested non psi phenomena does it not account for ?



Lots of phenomena such as near death experiences and out of body experiences for starters!

leo100 wrote:If you assume that psi phenomena and survival evidence doesn't exist or is very weak then it's easy of course to accept that mind is produced by the brain. However if you accept the evidence for survival and psi [which has been shown to exist by conventional scientific standards] then the theory that mind is filter and received by the brain is the simplest theory to take. Now when a materialist admits that yes psi phenomena has been shown to exist by scientific standards, they will a lot of the time fall back by saying well "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'. This is a complete cop out because first of all what would create such extraordinary evidence. Replicated repeatable results yes? apparently not, it seems that this statement keeps the skeptics safe to the point of when their is very strong evidence for survival and psi they come up with this statement.

There is no assumption that evidence for PSI is weak. It is weak. Now point to a clear well validated and corroborated anything psi. Contrary to what you believe is true there's not one psi thing that stands up to conventional scientific standards. Replicated results are not extraordinary and those are the standards of conventional scientific methods. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence What this means is very simple to understand. It means if you say that such and such is true the evidence must be compelling even clear cut by those within the field of their expertise. The average Joe or Jane is not an expert.


Your wrong the conventional scientific method is the best method we have at showing the truth. And if it's the truth your after then the evidence that has been replicated by conventional scientific methods should be good enough.

leo100 wrote:So are materialists really looking for the truth here?. I would say they could be, if they could gives us what they mean by extraordinary evidence. After many decades and centuries it seems as though its becoming very apparent what they mean by it. Its a way to ignore and avoid opposing data that doesn't fit into their materialistic worldview. So where is the soul? well i would say by looking at the evidence from survival that it's in the body. When death happens the soul leaves the physical body and takes a life of its own. The soul is a duplicate of the physical body but made of different kind of energy and matter.

For an examle of a skeptic admitting that remote viewing has been shown to exist by the scientific method.

Go here

http://subversivethinking.blogspot.com/ ... -that.html

To the embolden sentence can you provide compelling evidence this is true. Sounds more like a belief to me.

Subversivethinking has slightly misquoted Wiseman and certainly misunderstood what Wiseman said. Doing a keyword search will bear out what Wiseman meant it's something you should have done instead of getting a secondhand misunderstanding.

Btw this post of yours is a good example of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence non of which you've provided.

To answer your question of where is the soul try Motown


Yes my post unfortunately was before the correction took place.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 08 Oct 2010, 05:24

I address Indigo because she is the only committed “pantheist” in this discussion, but the comments are on all.

From the bottom up. Indigo. I have a mathematical set of reasons for assuming that something comes from nothing, order comes from simplicity, and meaning is inherent in phenomena. I posted it under the esoteric insights forum, hoping in particular among other hopes you might see it and comment.

Also, Indigo, you offered your answer, "The soul is in the non-physical plane of reality. Thus by definition, it cannot be found anywhere in the physical plane of reality"

My own null hypothesis is, as my friend Rbt Shelby said ("Letter to S. &. M. on The Basis" in his notes on facebook) "Mind and body are like two distinct opposite ends of a stick. (S. &. M.) say this is only metaphoric, but it is more useful and apt than (they) want to see, and certainly not trivial. You cannot deny that the one stick has two ends. The two ends belong to one thing which includes both, but neither one of them IS the other, and neither one of the ends IS the stick, nor ARE both ends of the stick together EQUAL to the stick. There is still an Undivided Middle.”
Rbt calls that undivided middle the basis. It is the part of the noumenon that we are, the “X” of the mystery of personhood.

I have a number of beta hypotheses about the afterlife. The main issue of this thread is “where is the physical (or metaphysical?) location of the soul?” My Betas include just about every speculation above, but until I get an orgone accumulator, I can't think of any meaningful research I could do.
I am agnostic that is even a meaningful question. My null implies the basis may be a verb, a relation. “Where is thought?” may be as meaningless a question as “Where is run?” In any case, which part of the stick is the “soul”? The epiphenomena, the undivided middle, both, or all three? Something else missed in this model?
The clearest real world referent I have for what seems to meant by this term is memory. My current null is that our lives are like a line of gunpowder, and the moment is the point of ignition where experience turns into the ash of memory. But I using as well the metaphor of the burning stick, although that seems to describe the perception end, while memory goes up in smoke.
My thoughts , as you can see, have been more on the lines of “What is the soul?” since right now the “soul” is the same place as Thought and Creation (erroneous conceptions of verbs as nouns,)

My Beta.
Overwhelmingly, the most obvious fact about existence is, it evolves. I can not think of the “soul” doing anything else. Christians go so far as to say the afterlife itself evolves.
Historically, if one accepts human testimony as valid, one can model the nature of the “soul” and even the afterlife, and something of it evolution.
I shall not use that term “soul” anymore. Instead, I shall use four terms from other wisdoms.

In Robert's terms, translated into those of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the body has or is the ba, an animal spirit, which animals share with us, and indeed all things, if one is a pantheist, have, or are, this spirit. The memory end of the stick, the point at which it becomes a burning brand, the western “soul”, is called the ra. The undivided middle, or ka was regarded as the only part that was inherently eternal. Collectively, this burning brand is the baraka.
This concept, however, is highly evolved. I suspect that the Japanese model represents an earlier state in the evolution. The Japanese call the baraka, the stick, a kami, which the same three parts. Let's examine them in terms of Egypt, Japan, and Ostzi, the Alpine Ice mummy.
The ba-body, which lasts until the body is destroyed, still exists in Ostzi's case. The Egyptians mummified, the Japanese cremate.
The ra-memory persists as long as we remain in the personal memory of the living. Ostzi is as dead in this sense as any (non-”Egyptian”: see portion on afterlife below) who died before, say, “Christ”.
The ka persists as long as one is remembered. Tut had an odd experience in those terms, but Ostzi's has been weirder (not to mention “Lucy”s”). On the other hand, Sisyphus has been rolling that rock a long time, and I shudder to think of what has happened to Yeshua and Mohammed by now. In Japanese terms, these kamis become “gods” of a class I call euhemeric (sp) meaning originally human. (those who did not, reincarnate once the ka kami can no longer sustain itself in human memory (bodies having been disposed of by cremation.)
This “Divine immortality” (sans suffering) was the goal of the Egyptian Royal rites of the dead. In the West, the mystery religions evolved from this to give one a (pleasant) immortality, but that is a huge topic, and much fuzzier, but here was the Egyptian method for the masses to obtain immortality (the alternative being simply extinction, snuffing, “nirvanization.”)
Upon death, the ra is weighed by the psychopompus. If its failings outweigh its good, it is “fed to the ba” and, like a kami, “nirvanizes” as the baraka fades in this world. If the ra passes the test, it is united with the ka and even takes the ba with it.
That is my Beta, what I suspect is true, but cannot “prove”,Interested? for at least as late as the time of Siddhartha. Things have evolved since then.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Ben Masada » 07 Sep 2011, 11:19

The Truth About the Soul

That's another inheritance from Egyptian myth and Greek Mythology. I have been asked about the soul. Probably by questioners tired of being exploited by the crooks of this world who have been for thousands of years using this one more item to keep the naive ones under the religious chain which, psychologically keeps the channel open for Mammon.

In fact, what indeed is the soul? The soul is not something we have, but something we are for a limited time. The soul is a condition. The condition of being alive. As soon as we are dead, the soul is non-existent. In Israel, whenever there is a massive accident or terrorist attack, the first question in the air is, "How many "nephashote" were there at the area? That's what soul is called in Hebrew; "nephesh." For dead casualties comes the second question. How many guphote, God forbid? That's what the dead body is in Hebrew, guphah. Therefore, guphote, the dead ones.

Now, before you think or say, "Behold, Ben is back with another of his wild interpretations of the Scriptures, let me invite you to Genesis 2:7. "When the Almighty formed man from the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." That's what man is, "a living soul". At the time of death, as the body goes back to the dust, according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the breath of life returns to God Who gave it."

The expression, "returns to God Who gave it," means only that something is gone; it is over; it is just no more. It means that at death, when the breath of life is separated from the body, the soul ceases to exist. We are allowed to name the breath of life spirit, which only makes of the soul a temporary emanation. Then, spirit could name almost any kind of emanation.

So, no more fear of souls, or the thought that soul survives the body, or is collected somewhere to be loaned, so to speak, to a body who is being born, or that it will enjoy or suffer any kind of afterlife. We are all living souls and, once dead, the soul is gone as if it did not exist, or ever had any life of its own.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ProfWag » 07 Sep 2011, 20:46

Ben Masada wrote:The Truth About the Soul

That's another inheritance from Egyptian myth and Greek Mythology. I have been asked about the soul. Probably by questioners tired of being exploited by the crooks of this world who have been for thousands of years using this one more item to keep the naive ones under the religious chain which, psychologically keeps the channel open for Mammon.

In fact, what indeed is the soul? The soul is not something we have, but something we are for a limited time. The soul is a condition. The condition of being alive. As soon as we are dead, the soul is non-existent. In Israel, whenever there is a massive accident or terrorist attack, the first question in the air is, "How many "nephashote" were there at the area? That's what soul is called in Hebrew; "nephesh." For dead casualties comes the second question. How many guphote, God forbid? That's what the dead body is in Hebrew, guphah. Therefore, guphote, the dead ones.

Now, before you think or say, "Behold, Ben is back with another of his wild interpretations of the Scriptures, let me invite you to Genesis 2:7. "When the Almighty formed man from the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." That's what man is, "a living soul". At the time of death, as the body goes back to the dust, according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the breath of life returns to God Who gave it."

The expression, "returns to God Who gave it," means only that something is gone; it is over; it is just no more. It means that at death, when the breath of life is separated from the body, the soul ceases to exist. We are allowed to name the breath of life spirit, which only makes of the soul a temporary emanation. Then, spirit could name almost any kind of emanation.

So, no more fear of souls, or the thought that soul survives the body, or is collected somewhere to be loaned, so to speak, to a body who is being born, or that it will enjoy or suffer any kind of afterlife. We are all living souls and, once dead, the soul is gone as if it did not exist, or ever had any life of its own.
Ben

Do I understand you correctly that your stance is that there is no "life after death?"
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Ben Masada » 10 Sep 2011, 11:43

If there is a soul, IMHO, the question ought to be, not where, but what is it. According to Genesis 2:7, when, metaphorically, God created man from the dust of the ground, He breathed in his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. The text says, man became, and not that man passed to have a soul.
It obviously means that living souls are what we are and not what we have. Therefore, soul is the combination of body with the breath of life. That's what in Hebrew we refer to as nephesh. At death, when the breath of life is taken out of the body, this goes back to the dust, and the breath of life which euphemistically is referred to as spirit, goes back to God Who gave it. Then we get back to be what we always had been: Nothing. (Eccl. 12:7)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Ben Masada » 10 Sep 2011, 12:17

ProfWag wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:The Truth About the Soul

That's another inheritance from Egyptian myth and Greek Mythology. I have been asked about the soul. Probably by questioners tired of being exploited by the crooks of this world who have been for thousands of years using this one more item to keep the naive ones under the religious chain which, psychologically keeps the channel open for Mammon.

In fact, what indeed is the soul? The soul is not something we have, but something we are for a limited time. The soul is a condition. The condition of being alive. As soon as we are dead, the soul is non-existent. In Israel, whenever there is a massive accident or terrorist attack, the first question in the air is, "How many "nephashote" were there at the area? That's what soul is called in Hebrew; "nephesh." For dead casualties comes the second question. How many guphote, God forbid? That's what the dead body is in Hebrew, guphah. Therefore, guphote, the dead ones.

Now, before you think or say, "Behold, Ben is back with another of his wild interpretations of the Scriptures, let me invite you to Genesis 2:7. "When the Almighty formed man from the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." That's what man is, "a living soul". At the time of death, as the body goes back to the dust, according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the breath of life returns to God Who gave it."

The expression, "returns to God Who gave it," means only that something is gone; it is over; it is just no more. It means that at death, when the breath of life is separated from the body, the soul ceases to exist. We are allowed to name the breath of life spirit, which only makes of the soul a temporary emanation. Then, spirit could name almost any kind of emanation.

So, no more fear of souls, or the thought that soul survives the body, or is collected somewhere to be loaned, so to speak, to a body who is being born, or that it will enjoy or suffer any kind of afterlife. We are all living souls and, once dead, the soul is gone as if it did not exist, or ever had any life of its own.
Ben


Do I understand you correctly that your stance is that there is no "life after death?"


Yes, ProfWag, you have understood me absolutely correct. I am sorry if this disappoints you somehow, but that's exactly what I mean: There is no afterlife. This is the only life we have to live. So, enjoy it the best you can. According to Job 10:21, from the shadow of death there is no return. Even our memory will eventually fall out of the mind of those who will stay back for some more time to live, till they also will join us in a fate common to all. (Eccl. 9:5) What would be the use of an afterlife, to get into the vicious circle to die over and over again? Before you think of eternity, allow me to remind you that this attribute was not granted to man. According to Genesis 3:22, when, metaphorically the Lord cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Jewish way to inform that man cannot have eternal life. That's an attribute which belongs with God only.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ProfWag » 10 Sep 2011, 20:33

Ben Masada wrote:Yes, ProfWag, you have understood me absolutely correct. I am sorry if this disappoints you somehow, but that's exactly what I mean: There is no afterlife. This is the only life we have to live. So, enjoy it the best you can. According to Job 10:21, from the shadow of death there is no return. Even our memory will eventually fall out of the mind of those who will stay back for some more time to live, till they also will join us in a fate common to all. (Eccl. 9:5) What would be the use of an afterlife, to get into the vicious circle to die over and over again? Before you think of eternity, allow me to remind you that this attribute was not granted to man. According to Genesis 3:22, when, metaphorically the Lord cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Jewish way to inform that man cannot have eternal life. That's an attribute which belongs with God only.
Ben

No, no, no, that doesn't disappoint me. I'm atheist and don't believe there's a life after death to begin with. I'm just a little surprised that a person who appears to live by the word of the bible doesn't believe that there is anything left after one dies. I just wonder why one would devote their life to god and the bible if there's no reward once they die?
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 11 Sep 2011, 07:06

ProfWag wrote:
Ben Masada wrote:Yes, ProfWag, you have understood me absolutely correct. I am sorry if this disappoints you somehow, but that's exactly what I mean: There is no afterlife. This is the only life we have to live. So, enjoy it the best you can. According to Job 10:21, from the shadow of death there is no return. Even our memory will eventually fall out of the mind of those who will stay back for some more time to live, till they also will join us in a fate common to all. (Eccl. 9:5) What would be the use of an afterlife, to get into the vicious circle to die over and over again? Before you think of eternity, allow me to remind you that this attribute was not granted to man. According to Genesis 3:22, when, metaphorically the Lord cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Jewish way to inform that man cannot have eternal life. That's an attribute which belongs with God only.
Ben

No, no, no, that doesn't disappoint me. I'm atheist and don't believe there's a life after death to begin with. I'm just a little surprised that a person who appears to live by the word of the bible doesn't believe that there is anything left after one dies. I just wonder why one would devote their life to god and the bible if there's no reward once they die?



This is a "Shakespeare" comment.

A woman in one of my college classes once said, "I don't see what keeps someone from stealing or killing if they don't believe in God!"
I couldn't stand that. I said, "Didn't your mother teach you about good manners."

On the other extreme, St. Wm Burroughs said, "If you do business with a Christian, GET IT IN WRITING, 'cause those sobs will screw you in a second if God says its okay."

As the philosopher of Christian atheism, Thomas Althizer, said, one follows Christian ethics because they WORK, when one leaves any "god" aside from the verb supreme being out of it.

Of course, there are different levels of "Christian" ethics, from the self-justification of crime kindergarten Christians use, to the PhD level Platinum rule of "Give the bastard more than he asks for" of non-violent resistence.

Ben Masada, bless you by supreme being, and, in the spirit of semitic solidarity & universalism, salaam alekum
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 12 Sep 2011, 02:46

Yes, ProfWag, you have understood me absolutely correct. I am sorry if this disappoints you somehow, but that's exactly what I mean: There is no afterlife. This is the only life we have to live. So, enjoy it the best you can. According to Job 10:21, from the shadow of death there is no return. Even our memory will eventually fall out of the mind of those who will stay back for some more time to live, till they also will join us in a fate common to all. (Eccl. 9:5) What would be the use of an afterlife, to get into the vicious circle to die over and over again? Before you think of eternity, allow me to remind you that this attribute was not granted to man. According to Genesis 3:22, when, metaphorically the Lord cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. That's the Jewish way to inform that man cannot have eternal life. That's an attribute which belongs with God only.

Ben


For starters the whole tale of Job pertains to a bet made between God & Satan and God is the one that torments the hell out of the poor man. If we read the entire 10th chapter is sounds more like he’s questioning why he had faith and is awakening to the fact that god is a lie and so there would be no life after death. If I had time I’d take a closer look in that I do not believe these are Jobs worlds, but those of one of his tormentors; I simply don’t have time to do the footwork presently.

1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul. 2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; show me wherefore thou contendest with me. 3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? Or seest thou as man seeth?

5 Are thy days as the days of man? Are thy years as man's days, 6 that thou inquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?

7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand. 8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

9 Remember, I beeseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?

11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.

12 Thou hast granted me life and favor, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

13 And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.

14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity. 15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;


One should look a bit deeper into Job however, such as Chapter 14 in which hope & optimism around death, the promise to come after death when called by the almighty, etc. We are also looking at things out of context (again) and not clarifying the debate that is afoot in this passage in which Job is being challenged by those who do not remember him, etc.

The 9th chapter of Ecclesiastes seems to deal with “common things” all shall know; I’ve not the time presently to dig around this issue but I’ll double check things ASAP. . . I’m smelling some more cherry-picking; especially given the older Hebrew belief in Reincarnation and the long-standing traditions around Elijah.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


And we find an issue of greater context again, in that the obligation of man was to earn the knowledge of the second tree in order to know what was & is. This is the basis of the Kabbalah which IS the Tree of Knowledge that leads us to the fruit of all life and understanding of the “spirit” – one’s own essence and consciousness. It is through this that we learn to “know” the divine on a higher level. The ideology is quite similar to Buddhism and the idea of the Higher Self and obtaining Nirvana.
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