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If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Discussions about Afterlife Research, Survival Science, Near Death Experiences, Out of Body Experiences, Spirit Communication, Mediumship, Ghosts, Spirits, etc.

Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ProfWag » 05 Jun 2010, 03:03

Indigo Child wrote: That said many masters have have done many "miracles" Patanjali describes
many powers that we can develop in Yoga teleportation, increasing and decreasing in size, walking on water,
levitation, flying, becoming invisible, seeing into the future, controlling another person's body, controlling the
weather, materialising things, supersensory perception, superhuman strength, transforming into another thing
(Most of these are covered in chapter 3 of the Yogasutras) You can literally become a god-like being. This comes
from the realization that the stuff of the world is actually made out of mind stuff so we can play with it.

Just in case some of you skipped over Indigo's post because it was rather long, I wanted to emphasize his statement above. It might be worthy of discussion. Or not.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 05 Jun 2010, 03:37

ProfWag wrote:
Indigo Child wrote: That said many masters have have done many "miracles" Patanjali describes
many powers that we can develop in Yoga teleportation, increasing and decreasing in size, walking on water,
levitation, flying, becoming invisible, seeing into the future, controlling another person's body, controlling the
weather, materialising things, supersensory perception, superhuman strength, transforming into another thing
(Most of these are covered in chapter 3 of the Yogasutras) You can literally become a god-like being. This comes
from the realization that the stuff of the world is actually made out of mind stuff so we can play with it.

Just in case some of you skipped over Indigo's post because it was rather long, I wanted to emphasize his statement above. It might be worthy of discussion. Or not.


I holds no bar's eh, in taking everybody deep down the rabbit hole. Anyway have you emphasised this statement because you
think it is absolutely ridiculous and are aghast as to how anybody in this day and age can suggest such things, or because you are
genuinely interested in the reality of such things? If it is the latter, I can only suggest continue with the practice of
Yoga and meditation over several years, and you will begin to realise just what powers you have. A more faster way is to try to induce
an out of body experience using the various techniques developed in ancient and modern times, and find out for yourself about the spiritual realities above this
physical plane. I recommend "Astral dynamics" by Robert bruce. His web site online gives many of the techniques for free. It is a simple exercise,
do the experiments and get your own validation. I have left my body several times, so I have more than enough proof of these spiritual planes.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby caniswalensis » 05 Jun 2010, 04:16

While reading through some of the articles here, I found this one which seems to touch on the topic at hand:
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunking_New_Age.htm

Apologies if it is not appropriate to the conversation. I think it is a good read, anyway. :)

Regards, Canis
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ProfWag » 05 Jun 2010, 04:24

Indigo Child wrote:. Anyway have you emphasised this statement because you
think it is absolutely ridiculous and are aghast as to how anybody in this day and age can suggest such things, or because you are
genuinely interested in the reality of such things? .

In a vain attempt to maintain a sense of professionalism in this forum, I would prefer not to use "absolutely ridiculous" or "aghast," but I will say that I don't believe most of those things are possible and/or have probably been exagerated to the extreme.
As for your out of body, I have little doubt that you believe you experienced this...
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ProfWag » 05 Jun 2010, 04:42

I began a new thread under the "Spiritual Teaching" heading with the title "Human Flying." I thought this kind of discussion would be better suited undere that topic.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 05 Jun 2010, 04:53

Prowag,

The difference between belief and knowledge is that knowledge is
when one directly experiences something. It is not my belief that
at this moment I am talking to you, it is my knowledge. Similarly,
it is not my belief that I have my left my body, it is my knowledge.
I have directly experienced it. Like I said, if you are willing to put
in the effort and do the experiments I prescribed, you can have the
same knowledge as me.

As I said in an earlier thread if you set out inquiring into something,
with preconceptions about what is possible and what isn't, you are not
doing science, you are doing politics. The fact is you don't know the reality of
anything absolutely, if you did, you would not be on this forum. You are as much
a truth seeker as anybody else. This universe is as much mysterious to you as it
is to anybody else.

If you seriously want to know the reality of spiritual planes and out of body experiences,
research on it, read the books and articles of those who have them regularly, and try having
one yourself by doing the techniques. This is a science which has been scientifically studied by many
scientists, such as Robert Monroe. Countless people have reported to have these experiences from
ancient to modern times. There is more than enough evidence for you to take this seriously and investigate
it.

In the end if all of this is really true you are just robbing yourself of exploring a whole new dimension of life,
which will completely transform your life and give you a more enchanted perspective of life. Anyway I will continue
to enjoy the spiritual life, whether you decide to join us or not. You're missing out.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby really? » 05 Jun 2010, 18:31

Indigo Child wrote:Prowag,



In the end if all of this is really true you are just robbing yourself of exploring a whole new dimension of life,
which will completely transform your life and give you a more enchanted perspective of life. Anyway I will continue
to enjoy the spiritual life, whether you decide to join us or not. You're missing out.


You know something you are sounding like an evangelical preacher exposing a religious belief. Someone just like this fellow John Hagee with his literalist interpretation of the Christian Bible. http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Default.asp
I'd like to point you and others that may not be familiar with the 'Indian Skeptic' Basava Premanand. He lived in India was a amateur magician and a skeptic of the claims of the paranormal. In a country full of people claiming to be able to do usual things at every turn the gurus and godmen he investigated he exposed as frauds. He even offered money just like the MDC. It's good to see that there is a movement of skepticism in India.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 07 Jun 2010, 21:44

I can see the overlaps with what I am saying with religion, but
in actual fact what I am saying is actually spiritual, and there are key
differences. Religion is about beliefs, where one will believe something for
which they have no validation, such as believing in an after-life. Spirituality,
on the hand is where one personally validates what may begin as a belief
initially or as reasoned belief(logical argument) such that it is no longer a belief,
but becomes a knowledge.

I am not speaking in terms of beliefs that there is another dimension of life, this
is validated by my personal out of body experiences and other psychic experiences,
and it is also validated by scientific research in spirituality. There is more to this world
than our 5 sensory access to it, and I encourage you to investigate this, because it will
give you a whole new dimension of life. The beauty is at the higher dimensions of life one
becomes filled with postivity, joy, compassion and bliss. This is a real dimension that countless
masters throughout the ages have cultivated.

I can understand your reservations about not accepting psychic powers or masters who claim psychic
powers, although Yogananda I cited earlier recounting the story of Babaji materialising the golden palace,
is a highly respected master, both by spiritual people and academics. When he gave talks in the USA, he would
talk to packed audiences consisting of mainly academics and highly educated people. All I can say is investigate
it and find the truth yourself. To me psychic powers are not amazing, because I understand the essential nature
of reality is mind stuff. It is maliable and responds to the mind, because it indeed only exists in the mind.This
is something neuroscientists accept as well, reality is a representation which is constructed in the mind,
as such it is virtual. In other words if reality is constructed in the mind, it a mind-stuff, which responds to mind.


Remember I set you the challenge earlier to prove that something physical could evolve into something non physical,
and you admitted that you don't know how, indirectly showing you simply believed it. If we look at this logicaly, something
physical cannot become non physical, but something non physical could indeed become physical through aggregation. It is
so more logical to accept that reality is fundamentally a mind stuff. As soon as you take that logical step, psychic powers
much less being amazing, will be expected.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby really? » 08 Jun 2010, 03:00

Indigo Child wrote:I can see the overlaps with what I am saying with religion, but
in actual fact what I am saying is actually spiritual, and there are key
differences. Religion is about beliefs, where one will believe something for
which they have no validation, such as believing in an after-life. Spirituality,
on the hand is where one personally validates what may begin as a belief
initially or as reasoned belief(logical argument) such that it is no longer a belief,
but becomes a knowledge.

Word play and irrelevant. The fact is you offer up faith based explanations and nothing more.

Indigo Child wrote:I am not speaking in terms of beliefs that there is another dimension of life, this
is validated by my personal out of body experiences and other psychic experiences,
and it is also validated by scientific research in spirituality. There is more to this world
than our 5 sensory access to it, and I encourage you to investigate this, because it will
give you a whole new dimension of life. The beauty is at the higher dimensions of life one
becomes filled with postivity, joy, compassion and bliss. This is a real dimension that countless
masters throughout the ages have cultivated.
I can understand your reservations about not accepting psychic powers or masters who claim psychic
powers, although Yogananda I cited earlier recounting the story of Babaji materialising the golden palace,
is a highly respected master, both by spiritual people and academics. When he gave talks in the USA, he would
talk to packed audiences consisting of mainly academics and highly educated people. All I can say is investigate
it and find the truth yourself. To me psychic powers are not amazing, because I understand the essential nature
of reality is mind stuff. It is maliable and responds to the mind, because it indeed only exists in the mind.This
is something neuroscientists accept as well, reality is a representation which is constructed in the mind,
as such it is virtual. In other words if reality is constructed in the mind, it a mind-stuff, which responds to mind.

More irrelevancy.



Indigo Child wrote:Remember I set you the challenge earlier to prove that something physical could evolve into something non physical,
and you admitted that you don't know how, indirectly showing you simply believed it. If we look at this logicaly, something
physical cannot become non physical, but something non physical could indeed become physical through aggregation. It is
so more logical to accept that reality is fundamentally a mind stuff. As soon as you take that logical step, psychic powers
much less being amazing, will be expected.

What I was implying is the precise mechanism from which self awareness arises is unknown to me. In no way should you or anyone presume from my earlier examples believe I would for a moment consider the mind could arise on it's own or to have a separate existence without the brain. I thought that was clear enough the first time. Is it now ?
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 03:45

Word play and irrelevant. The fact is you offer up faith based explanations and nothing more.


Nope, you want to believe that. You want to believe it is my faith that I have experienced this. However,
just as it is not my faith that I am talking to you right now, similarly it is not my faith that I have had those
experiences.

What I was implying is the precise mechanism from which self awareness arises is unknown to me. In no way should you or anyone presume from my earlier examples believe I would for a moment consider the mind could arise on it's own or to have a separate existence without the brain. I thought that was clear enough the first time. Is it now ?


Nah, of course you wouldn't. In the same way a Muslim would not for a moment consider that the Hindu god Krishna is real.
You have a belief that brain causes mind, and will stick to it in the same way a Muslim would stick to the word of the Quran.
All I am doing by pointing this out is showing how clear it is you believe this, you don't actually know it. It is a shame though
that you cannot evaluate your own beliefs.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 08 Jun 2010, 20:43

really? wrote:
Indigo Child wrote:I can see the overlaps with what I am saying with religion, but
in actual fact what I am saying is actually spiritual, and there are key
differences. Religion is about beliefs, where one will believe something for
which they have no validation, such as believing in an after-life. Spirituality,
on the hand is where one personally validates what may begin as a belief
initially or as reasoned belief(logical argument) such that it is no longer a belief,
but becomes a knowledge.

Word play and irrelevant. The fact is you offer up faith based explanations and nothing more.


I kind of have to step in here on some things. Firstly, really? I think it's you playing the word game here; there really is a huge difference between religion (dogmacy/cultism) vs. Spirituality, the latter is very much a personal thing and though it might be sparked on as part of some philosophical ideology, it doesn't have to have such in requisite. The irony being however, almost every individual that "seeks god" on his/her own free of the opinions of others, ends up discovering similar "truths".


Indigo Child wrote:I am not speaking in terms of beliefs that there is another dimension of life, this
is validated by my personal out of body experiences and other psychic experiences,
and it is also validated by scientific research in spirituality. There is more to this world
than our 5 sensory access to it, and I encourage you to investigate this, because it will
give you a whole new dimension of life. The beauty is at the higher dimensions of life one
becomes filled with postivity, joy, compassion and bliss. This is a real dimension that countless
masters throughout the ages have cultivated.

I can understand your reservations about not accepting psychic powers or masters who claim psychic
powers, although Yogananda I cited earlier recounting the story of Babaji materialising the golden palace,
is a highly respected master, both by spiritual people and academics. When he gave talks in the USA, he would
talk to packed audiences consisting of mainly academics and highly educated people. All I can say is investigate
it and find the truth yourself. To me psychic powers are not amazing, because I understand the essential nature
of reality is mind stuff. It is maliable and responds to the mind, because it indeed only exists in the mind.This
is something neuroscientists accept as well, reality is a representation which is constructed in the mind,
as such it is virtual. In other words if reality is constructed in the mind, it a mind-stuff, which responds to mind.


More irrelevancy.


Ok, I don't think this is "More irrelevancy" though it does mimic a dodge & parry... the irrelevancy stems from one's unwillingness to consider (respect) the other person's experiences and "validations". It doesn't matter what your personal perspective is in this case because it's something personal that can't be physically challenged... at least to a point. Yes, there are scientific studies that do support SOME of the thinking indigochild is putting out there but 95% (if not more) of what we have is in fact anecdotal, not physics or chemistry; this is a carnal truth that spiritually aligned folks need to learn how to accept when it comes to "wisdom seeking", which is the gist to my personal message; let go of the fantasies!

In one of the Buddhist tracts (wish I could remember it), a student asks about miracles; raising the dead, soothsaying, walking on water, etc. and his Holiness responds asking "Who do such things serve?"

The Buddhist point of view when it comes to such things tends to sustain the idea of "fraud"; not in the sense of charlatanism as most would see it in our time, but in the sense of one serving the ego by way of magick; that includes healing work in that the healer deprives the sick from learning the karmic lessons associated with the illness... fortunately views on that thought have changed a bit, but when it comes to "Spiritual Healing" work, I believe most of Buddhism would sustain that more ancient view; mystics perform such feats not to serve the soul but to serve themselves. As word gets out of their miracles they become elevated in the eyes of others rather than elevating themselves through higher learning.



Indigo Child wrote:Remember I set you the challenge earlier to prove that something physical could evolve into something non physical,
and you admitted that you don't know how, indirectly showing you simply believed it. If we look at this logicaly, something physical cannot become non physical, but something non physical could indeed become physical through aggregation. It is so more logical to accept that reality is fundamentally a mind stuff. As soon as you take that logical step, psychic powers much less being amazing, will be expected.


What I was implying is the precise mechanism from which self awareness arises is unknown to me. In no way should you or anyone presume from my earlier examples believe I would for a moment consider the mind could arise on it's own or to have a separate existence without the brain. I thought that was clear enough the first time. Is it now ?


What indigo child seems to be referring to is the first Hermetic Axiom -- THE MIND IS ALL/ALL IS MIND for it is only via the mind/thought that creation can occur. We know this as fact though many in the more cynical mind-set attempt to negate the validity of it even when they must admit that everything begins as an idea and has the ability to evolve from the etheric plane to the tangible. But likewise, we are looking at how the mundane course of processing and creativity has been given a mystical slant... and for reasons I can't quite comprehend.

Indigo Child, in looking at several of your posts it appears that you are barking up the wrong tree, as they say. You cannot serve your spiritual beliefs (truths) by "casting pearls before swine" to coin a term. When you attempt to transmit something that others do not want, you are not serving spirit but rather ego. This is especially true when you boldly step into a possible den of lions with a message that contradicts, at least by degree, the perception shared by the majority of the beasts here in.

Now I both, agree and disagree with you for a number of reasons, the biggest issue of disagreement is the fact that you are in love with the fantasy around it all and the "gospel" therein. Without recognizing such, your words are but clones to what every student of Eastern Mysticism is going to express, they are not your own words but rather terms you've been taught to use as the result of repetition. Sorry, but I'm not seeing you express the perception of a solitary bird. For me, until someone can break away from "doctrine" (like it or not, that is what you are regurgitating here) they are not enduring a personal awakening but rather buying in to what they desire as created through imagination. This is exceptionally common place and in some of the older occult texts you will find inference to it along side the fact that most come to know this level of experience long before coming close to the higher truth. I've seen in with Eastern Mysticism as well as Kabalistic studies, Hermetics, et al.

Understand, I'm not trying to put you down or belittle your personal testimony, just shine a light on things that may help you realize that what is "more to it" centers on our ability to ground ourselves after the "high" of spiritual adventure and thus acknowledge it all on the carnal plane... it's ALL right here, right in front of our nose ;)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 22:33

Dear Craig Browning,

I understand where you are coming from, and I think for the most part you are right. I just want
to respond to some of your critisms.

On Hermetic silence. I have for the most part in real life become silent on these issues, and learned
to bite my tongue and just observe what is blatantly wrong. I only talk spirituality with people who are
spiritual, and not just anybody. Some people are not worth engaging. I make an exception here, becase
this is a discussion forum, which calls for critical discussion and debate. Remember, even masters like Adi
Sankara never declined a debate. It is not unanimous in the spiritual order that we should remain silent, some
masters are feisty and actually go out there to destroy the wrong conceptions. Remember what Jesus said, "I have
come to destroy"

On regurgitation of doctrine. Guilty. I am primarily a logician and philosopher, before I am spiritual. I will readily
admit I have not realised much of what I teach. Most of my knowledge is Eastern, as you rightly point out, with some
consideration of Western philosophy. However, you know yourself spirituality is never original. The same truths are
discovered by all spiritual seekers. It happens to be the Eastern tradition has a far better map and understanding of
spirituality, so I see no reason to use other maps or create new maps. If something is working, what is the point fixing it?
Due to my training in logic and philosophy, I can present that map in the language of rationality that is spoken today, I
am merely an organizer of information. None of these ideas are mine. As for the spiritual part, I have long recognised the
need to realise theory as fact, and am in the process of finding a master to do that. I aim to dedicate myself 100% to this
as soon as I find that master and forget all I know.

On fantasy. I think we will continue to disagree on this point. I started out completely opposed to this idea, I would balk when
people talked about gods, angels, spirit guides, demons, elementals, white lodges and black lodges, magik, thinking this was just a
primitive description of some abstract principles. Now as my knowledge has increased, I have realised those descriptions are in fact
true. I have now a much more enchanted view of reality. It is very much like a fantasy. This universe is all life, and it comes in different
forms, shapes, sizes, densities and orientations.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 10 Jun 2010, 01:36

Now as my knowledge has increased, I have realised those descriptions are in fact true. I have now a much more enchanted view of reality. It is very much like a fantasy. This universe is all life, and it comes in different forms, shapes, sizes, densities and orientations.


I know this will sound peculiar, but I understand what you are saying and agree... at least in part. I've had my day with the "invisible" and even working with the Fey. I've seen and worked with such things over the years but I've likewise learned that long before the typical mortal can understand and accept such phenomena they must understand the mystical from the carnal point of view. Until they can break down the first illusion they cannot walk into the next level of understanding or experience.

My "Calling" as it were, is to build the bridge between the two worlds... the two extremes... so that the common man/woman can more readily identify with the concept of "magick" and over time discover for themselves how much more there really is. It takes time however as well as baby steps. Just as I mentioned elsewhere on this forum today, you cannot force an idea onto others no matter what it may be; it must become their own thought and the only way to expedite such discovery is by subtly planting thought seeds that they can appreciate, will mull over and ultimately become affected by. As time unfolds and more and more of these pearls are handed to those willing to appreciate them, the greater good we are doing for ourselves as well as the world by way of our selflessness and gesture.

It's very similar to Drug & Alcohol Rehab... one must come to the conclusion that something is wrong and thus, become willing enough to be willing to take new steps and change the processes of their mind and eventually, their nature. But human beings are stubborn animals as well as lazy, the labor of genuine thought is one they all prefer running from; it's much easier to simply buy into what they are told to believe than learning how to think for themselves and for this reason their faith must be molded by those hosting greater insight and experience. Not through lectures and sermons but by planting those simple, subtle seeds that make them think and excites the mind into wanting to be like you... as the Course in Miracles teaches "We are each born as Teacher, Healer and Student" and it is by living the example that we given the fool something to work towards. If their spirit is ready and willing, progress will come about. But not through blind faith! It must be a kinetic journey at first and that's where my personal work comes to task.

Yes, there is much, much more to it but so many in today's spiritual/metaphysical culture wants to give the world an instant transfusion rather than understanding how "The Masters" did it and following in their footsteps... chopping wood and fetching water... ;)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 10 Jun 2010, 02:18

I totally agree one can only teach by living the example, rather than through words.
I am not a teacher though, I am a student. I am not here to teach, but to discuss
and debate with others and challenge bad thinking. The skeptics are already feeling
the heat from me lol

When I meet my master, I won't be doing this anymore. I will be dedicated to my
practice, working on myself. The spiritual journey demands absolute dedication.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 10 Jun 2010, 13:26

Chop the wood... fetch the water. Learn the parable and live to understand it. ;)
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