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If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Discussions about Afterlife Research, Survival Science, Near Death Experiences, Out of Body Experiences, Spirit Communication, Mediumship, Ghosts, Spirits, etc.

Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 01 Jun 2010, 14:05

I don't know how the illusionist saws the lady in half, but not knowing does not cause me have to presume there's a magical explanation and for that reason I most certainly can state the brain and the mind are one. It's the parsimonious position. You've provided nothing to change anyone's mind; certainly not mine.


In other words you are telling me you don't know, you simply believe the brain is creating the mind. I have no desire to change your mind,
because that is only possible insofar as one is rational, but beliefs are not rational. You are free to believe that if you want, but it puts
you in same category as a religious person who chooses to believe.

For the classical world of everyday experience Newtons laws still work and are still used. How do you think we plot orbits and trajectories to other celestial bodies ? Einstein expanded upon Newtons work and provided a deeper understanding for how this universe works. Newton was not discarded. You didn't realize that did you ?


Newton's theories are actually wrong. They are useful for making predictions in everyday experience, but they fail
when predicting anything relativistic, such as objects travelling near the speed of light and they fail when making
predictions calculating orbits of celestial bodies. It fail absolutely, along with GR at the microscopic level.

If a theory is useful it does not mean it is true.Acupunture is useful, are you about to accept the existence of meridians
and chi because it is useful? It is known for a fact today that the universe does not behave mechanistically as the Newtonian view
held. The theory of physics is QM.

Indigo Child wrote:In other words as long as one gives evidence for their theories it is valid. In that case the works of countless parapsychologists for the theory
of PSI is valid because they do indeed give evidence.

I hope you are not using theory in the common usage (vernacular). Assuming you are not name one theory just one that explains one aspect of paranormal phenomena. The theory must meet this definition In scientific usage, the term "theory" is reserved for ideas which meet baseline requirements about the kinds of empirical observations made, the methods of classification used, and the consistency of the theory in its application among members of the class to which it pertains. These requirements vary across different scientific fields of knowledge, but in general theories are expected to be functional and parsimonious: i.e. a theory should be the simplest possible tool that can be used to effectively address the given class of phenomena. Such theories are constructed from elementary theorems that consist in empirical data about observable phenomena. A scientific theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon. A scientific theory is a deductive theory, in that, its content is based on some formal system of logic and that some of its elementary theorems are taken as axioms. [/color]


That is not science, but politics. You are giving me a list of arbitrarily defined or agreed upon by political consensus what constitutes a theory. Some of the considerations you have are given are wrong, such as “a scientific theory is deductively valid” No it isn’t it, it is only hypothetically deductive, but the hypothesis itself is purely inductive and intuitive.

If we strip away all this arbitrary criteria to what a theory is a theory is basically an explanation of observed facts. If it can account for the phenomenon and explain it is a valid theory. In a typical study of paranormal phenomena it is shown that a psychic is able to predict consistently a hidden object behind a screen or what is on a card beyond chance would allow, the most simplest explanation is that the psychic really does have psychic powers.

Now the theory in this case only applies to certain observed facts, but a theory should be universal, in that it must be able to explain all observed facts. However, no such universal theory exists because social theories only apply to social sciences, psychological theories to psychological sciences and paranormal theories to paranormal sciences. Newtonian theories only applies to everyday experience. Quantum physics largely applies to microscopic objects. Therefore paranormal science does not have to be universal either, but this does not mean it is any lesser than the others.

If you say you can bend metal just by thinking.
If you say you can read someones mind.
If you say you can see into the future.
If you say you can astrally project.
These are examples of extraordinary claims. But I still doubt you understand the differences .[/color]


You failed to show me how you can decide between an extraordinary and ordinary claim. Why is the claim that invisible entities called quarks exist anymore extraordinary than the claim that invisible spiritual forces exist? Again, you are not doing science here, but politics.

To reject the paranormal whilst doing science is to tacitly accept the assumption that mind is matter and the ontology that everything is matter. It is also tacitly accepts the assumption that there is external world out there that exists independently of us, is continuous and real which we can objectively study(called the natural assumption by Husserl, the founder of phenomenology) when in fact there is no world independent of our consciousness of it and our sensory information of it. To begin science with assumptions is again not science, but politics, and very close to religion.

Science purely as a logical method by which we know reality must begin with no assumptions at all. And to begin with the dogma that some things are ordinary and some things are extraordinary is beginning with assumptions on what reality is.

Check our my thread, “Spiritual Science” in the Alternative Science forum for an alterative epistemology of science.

Indigo Child wrote:You do realise that I can counter this by saying that your resistance to non-material/paranormal explanations is because of your fear that there really is a higher spiritual power that will judge you after you pass over, or that it really is possible that some people have spiritual powers and you are jealous because you don’t have any or you don't want to believe there is a purpose to life, so you can do whatever you want. What is the point of making such allegations? They get us nowhere. Stick to the discussion of points.

I fear nothing. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. However, if you are wrong you have far more to lose don't you ? We'll get somewhere if you start to realize that the ways look at things hasn't worked at all in providing facts hypothesis or theories.


Likewise, if I am wrong I am wrong. Stick to the discussion.




I'd like to point out something else that both you and the OP seem to be short sighted on. That is you and the people in your camp have had thousands upon thousands of years to find evidence to show something which is overwhelmingly compelling. You have failed to do that at this moment in time. I don't know why that is not obvious to you.[/color]


Indigo Child wrote:What are you talking about? There has been loads of evidence for paranormal phenomena since the beginning of time. It is widely documented in ancient texts. It is widely documented in modern scientific literature. There is a vast database of such studies you can access on the Institute of Noetics sciences. I have had many personal experiences myself.


A hollow allegation. Personal experiences so what so have I. I'd bet you didn't suspect I did.

Indigo Child wrote:So your statement is simply false that there is no evidence, and made in ignorance of the literature and the personal experiences of those who have had them.

Personal experiences are not proof. They are perhaps beacons which call for a closer look. The plural of anecdotes is not evidence.


Anecdotal evidence is not evidence? This is an absurd claim. Anecdotal evidence is phenomenological evidence. If somebody witnesses something, they can give evidence of witnessing that.
In a court of law witness testimony is counted as evidence. There is even testimony in science, because one can only tell you the results of an experiment by first witnessing them and then reporting them.
In fact any kind of evidence begins with experience.

Come back to the main point of paranormal phenomena there exists extensive phenomenological evidence in world literature from ancient to modern times that such phenomena does indeed happen and there is a remarkable level of consistency from humans all around the world. These phenomena include meeting spiritual entities, healing, levitation, teleportation, out of body experiences, telepathy, telekinesis etc. So don’t tell me there is no evidence, there is loads of evidence.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby really? » 01 Jun 2010, 21:41

I'd like to point out something else that both you and the OP seem to be short sighted on. That is you and the people in your camp have had thousands upon thousands of years to find evidence to show something which is overwhelmingly compelling. You have failed to do that at this moment in time. I don't know why that is not obvious to you.[/color]


Indigo Child wrote:What are you talking about? There has been loads of evidence for paranormal phenomena since the beginning of time. It is widely documented in ancient texts. It is widely documented in modern scientific literature. There is a vast database of such studies you can access on the Institute of Noetics sciences. I have had many personal experiences myself.


A hollow allegation. Personal experiences so what so have I. I'd bet you didn't suspect I did.

Indigo Child wrote:So your statement is simply false that there is no evidence, and made in ignorance of the literature and the personal experiences of those who have had them.

Personal experiences are not proof. They are perhaps beacons which call for a closer look. The plural of anecdotes is not evidence.


Indigo Child wrote:Anecdotal evidence is not evidence? This is an absurd claim. Anecdotal evidence is phenomenological evidence. If somebody witnesses something, they can give evidence of witnessing that.
In a court of law witness testimony is counted as evidence. There is even testimony in science, because one can only tell you the results of an experiment by first witnessing them and then reporting them.
In fact any kind of evidence begins with experience.

I just like to point out to you that this is not a court of law and that the standards used in a court of law are a lot different then the standards used in scientific proofs. They are not comparable. Valid science is not done by popular vote or decided by a majority. Witness testimony if applied to science would amount to hearsay.

Indigo Child wrote:Come back to the main point of paranormal phenomena there exists extensive phenomenological evidence in world literature from ancient to modern times that such phenomena does indeed happen and there is a remarkable level of consistency from humans all around the world. These phenomena include meeting spiritual entities, healing, levitation, teleportation, out of body experiences, telepathy, telekinesis etc. So don’t tell me there is no evidence, there is loads of evidence.

And all anecdotal. If so many extraordinary things are true why is it so hard to find a demonstration of such abilities including where the soul resides.

Lastly I'd like to point out that one whom likes to think of themselves as not making assumptions sure does a fine job of doing just that when they assume all those "phenomenological evidence in world literature from ancient to modern times that such phenomena does indeed happen " are more than just anecdotes. I having a psychic moment that you will contest this.
It takes a smart person to be able to rationalize as well as you do.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jun 2010, 02:11

I believe you failed to acknowledge my main point that testimony is involved in the scientific method
as well, because the scientist in the end has to report his results. Then there has to be a peer-review
and an attempt at replicating those results, which are not always replicable exactly. So how does this
differ from other testimony? Such as somebody reporting seeing a UFO, angel, big foot. Testimony
is testimony.

Not all knowledge claims can be tested by the scientific method. Some knowledge we derive from other
means. I am going to cite from the treatise on this web site, as you seem to guilty of this fallacy:

First, this is an absolutist statement since there is not just one single way to know everything. Other ways of knowing things include direct observation, personal experience, textbooks and articles, and advice from those who are wiser and more experienced than us. There are countless real things I can experience that don’t need to be proved by the scientific method. Even mundane examples can demonstrate that. For instance, I can see rainbows by direct observation even though I can’t bring them back to scientists, though they can see them too if they chose to go look. I can learn parenting through the experience of being a parent, and swimming by the experience of going into the water. Marketers and businesses learn the marketability of their products through surveys. We can also learn valuable things from wiser and more experienced people too, despite the fact that we didn’t use any scientific method to check them out. In addition, I can’t prove where I was yesterday either with the scientific method, but that doesn’t mean that any claim of where I was yesterday is false. Neither can I prove what I dreamed last night with the scientific method either, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t know what I dreamed about. Likewise, if Acupuncture or some alternative medicine technique works for me, then I know that it works for me regardless of whether it’s proven by the scientific method or not. Not everything has to be official for it to be true. (See rebuttal to Argument # 1 for more on that.) The scientific method is a tool for testing hypothesis and finding out things, not for defending one’s own paradigms.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page9.htm
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jun 2010, 02:17

You also fail to recognise that there are a plural of scientific methods and not just one. The heuristic methods used in medicine, differ to the phenomenological methods used in social sciences, differ to the scientific experiments used in physical sciences. The type of knowledge you are investigating decides what kind of method you can use. Now clearly when you are investigating the mind, you cannot use microscopes to examine the mind, so the best that you can do is study behaviour and draw scientific inferences from that. Likewise, if you are studying social groups, you cannot put them in a laboratory and run tests on them, you have to observe them in their environment and document your findings.

The very first stage of a scientific method is to collect data, not to judge data. That is the last stage of the scientific method. You are suggesting the converse however, you are suggesting beginning with prejudices on what constitutes valid data, and what is ordinary and what is extraordinary. Again I submit to you, you are not doing science, you are doing politics.

I think we can at least agree that the best kind of knowledge is scientific because it can be tested by method, what we absolutely disagree on is that other kinds of knowledge must be dismissed. Nay, all knowledge has to be considered by any true scientist, because all knowledge is data for the scientist. If I am examining the subject of UFO, I have to get a hold of anything I can get on the matter from physical trace evidence, radar reports, photos and films to testimony. As a scientist, I have to be methodical in my approach and critically examine the data.

Now regarding scientific studies of the soul, again similar considerations have to be made. I have to collect data of anything I can find of the matter from evidence of ghosts and poltergeist activity, testimony of those who have seen the soul, testimony and studies of out of body travellers etc. There is another method that has been developed in the East which I discuss in my thread, “Spiritual science” and that is the science of meditation. The science of meditation exploit’s the objectless property of consciousness in order to examine the mind. In order to do this one begins with certain preliminaries such as adjusting ones posture, calming ones mind using breathing techniques and using concentration techniques to suspend the mind. Then one simply watches what goes in the mind as the meditation progresses. The results are replicable and have been successfully mapped by Eastern scientists and Western scientists(Robert Monroe is a pioneer in this field) The process is systematic becasue one gradually goes into deeper and deeper states of consciousness, and each stage phenomenological data can be collected to differentiate one stage to the other. One of the final stages of meditation called Samadhi by the Eastern scientists is where one experiences state of absolute disappearance of subject and object dichotomy and experiences absolute oneness, accompanied by states of pure bliss. These are life transforming experiences.

This is the best method on how the soul can be investigated. The soul is basically that absolute consciousness, the life of life, pure bliss and light one experiences at the end of meditation. You will find it is common for meditators not to identify with their personality, this is because the personality forms an object of our consciousness in meditation, that we know we cannot be that personality. In fact we cannot be anything that forms objects of our consciousness, because it is what we are conscious of.

So if you want to know the soul. Do the experiment of meditation and you will know the soul. However, in order do this experiment you will need to satisfy certain preliminaries: You will need the physical fitness and flexibility to remain seated in one posture indefinitely, you will need to practice regular breathing and concentration exercises to be able to focus your mind. This will require several months, if not years of dedicated practice. Once you have mastered these preliminary stages you can begin meditation.

Spiritual science is only for the most serious seeker of the soul though. Who else is going to dedicate so much time, effort and energy to the endeavour.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby really? » 02 Jun 2010, 04:48

You win
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 02 Jun 2010, 22:40

My Turn :o

Actually, I'm not here to match wits with you Indigo Child just to offer a proposition based on my various areas of study and experience.

One of my biggest points when I teach Metaphysics and Psychic Development is to kick the boogieman and Hollywood hype out the door, replacing it with logic. Not self-created logic nor rationalism as we've seen exhibited time and again by the various naysayers out there but rather, insights as to how "Psychics" have been trained, starting as a toddler and up, for countless generations. How the disciplines or "skills" given to these children allow them to function in life at a level "above" their peers. This is not a hypothetical claim, you can readily find it in the various writings of groups like the Rosicrucian and even Templar sects. Techniques that allow them to "create" specific happenstances into their lives as well as the lives of others; not in some kind of etheric manner per ce, but by exploiting the "subtle mechanics" within nature which I fear, our ancestors had a superior understanding of than does modern man, even though their "science" was primitive by today's standards.

But they understood the "invisible" including what they know to be angels, the fey, spirits, etc. to be physical expressions. My belief being that much of what they became aware of are the very same invisible things you mention in the above; the very same quarks and Sparks and whatever else is out there and that we are still discovering on nearly a daily basis. History itself testifies of how simple magnetism was demonized by religionists centuries ago; people that saw electricity as the devil's breath or even god's judgment well before "science" was able to put a partial lid on things and "define" it, learn to manipulate it and yet, still can't fully explain it... they know that it "is" and little more. But then there is a lot of phenomena that "they" know exists that has yet to be proven to exists :twisted: ("they" tend to forget that some of us are aware of such things).

My point is, there is a middle ground in which it all comes together in agreement. What was once perceived as spirits or angles can probably host an alternative explanation or "understanding" in today's world via today's science... especially when we start moving into the amazing realms of Quantum Physics. So maybe it would be wisest to agree with our more cynical friends, disagreeing only by degree... the belief that we are both saying the same exact things just using different terminology.

It's just a thought ;)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 03 Jun 2010, 05:26

Craig, I understand what you are saying by taking a middle ground and explaining supernatural things
according to quantum physics. According to this understanding, spiritual, mystical and religious experiences,
are really just phenomenological descriptions of quantum states. The explanation for how this is possible is
the mind is entangled with the cosmos, and through this principle of entanglement we can explain the minds's
paranormal abilities. This is a very tempting explanation and a nice way to persuade a scientist to accept
the paranormal.

Unfortunately, it is wrong. If you read any good book on quantum physics, such as quantum enigma by Bruce
Rosenblum, you will find a section dealing with the claims that quantum physics justifies spirituality and the
paranormal, a common claim in the new-age religion and philosophy. There is no way to use quantum physics
to explain paranormal phenonena, simply because there is no proof that the mind is also entangled in the same
way, and that, and one can enable quantum effects through the use of intention. Simply put then, as there is no
understanding of how the mind and matter interact in quantum theory, it cannot be used as an explanation.

Secondly, quantum physics is still materialist. It simply redefines what the material is, this material is called variously
as energy, cosmic field, zero point energy, information. This is a much better and lighter than the crass materialism
of the previous paradigm, but it still suffers from the inability to reconcile consciousness, mind and matter.

In fact, I will argue, the ancients had an even better scientific understanding of reality than you give them credit for. I
have given some talks on this on a small platfortm, on Hindu metaphysics. There is a topic on this in the quantum physics
forum entitled, "What is the Quantum world" It is easy to map exactly what quantum physics has discovered with Hindu
metaphysics. They have discovered the Akasha, the zero point energy field, but this is not in fact "quantum" but a doorway
into the higher planes of reality - astral, mental, causal, spiritual and absolute(quantum) In other words rather than quantum
states being causes of spiritual entities like angels, heavens and hells, gods, they are in fact effects of them. So whatever
happens on the higher planes above filters down to the lower planes here. In other words the true determinants and causes
are spiritual entities.

So there is in fact no deterministic explanation for the soul, the soul is outside of causality and its power to direct intention
is its free will. It has power over matter and can make matter do whatever it wants. The signals it sends from the spiritual plane,
propogates through the intermediate planes and when it enters the physical its first manifestation is information.This information
then starts to manifest into solid and physical form. In other words everything begins as intention and ends up as physical form.

How do the Hindus know this? They know this by two methods 1) Vigorous rational systems of logic and 2) Through Yogic perception
The former simply gives you a dry intellectual map, the latter will give you real experience. Many here who have the fortune of going
to the astral plane will already know what I say is true. That reality begins as spritual and then gradually becomes denser and physical.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Jun 2010, 01:48

Ok :shock: You've proven that your smarter than a 5th grader but can you communicate with people and convey what you're saying on a 6th grade level?

I'm not saying that to be sarcastic only that you are speaking over the head of the average human being (most of whom -- including college grads -- have a 4th grade comprehension level). What I have stated and how I explain it is rather simplistic, even "mundane" when it comes to the higher levels of intellectual perspective, but my task is to demystify as much as I can so that folks aren't throwing tens of thousands of dollars at some ego sitting cross legged in an Ashram when he's not running about the country in one of his Bentley's or Roll's.

The "fantasy" of human spirituality/mysticism is the thing I want to remove from the mind of my patron. Not so as to rob them of their faith but so as to teach them "empowerment" by looking behind the proverbial curtain -- seeing the truth vs. the illusion.

I don't think I mentioned Quantum Physics per ce though I do know of several folks that have gone down that rabbit hole. Yes, I believe aspects of that filed MAY help explain more of what people have referred to as "Magick" or "PSI" and even Astral experience at some point in the future; the jury is still out. Nonetheless, my perception along side my explanation of things is and will continue to be the idea that the "invisible" realms are actually there when you choose to see them and know them as a "tangible" reality, be it quarks, photons or whatever else is out there in the form of finer energy... last I checked "finer" or "higher vibration" around energy has always been the explanation given by mystics, gurus, wizards and witches so either they are correct (which would in fact sustain the Quantum Science claims) or someone in the mix is changing the meanings/linguistics and semantics tied to such associations.

HINT: I know where the pea really is when the shells get moved about ;)

I'm really not trying to argue with you... in fact my original post was mostly in agreement to what you'd previously shared. But your retort could be viewed as to have come from someone that either can't accept agreement on things, even in part; or you simply enjoy gushing out a treatise composed of million-dollar words that quickly loose the common audience. It's a classic move by charlatans (not that I'm calling you such) and politicians who know that people don't want to feel dumb so they just censor out the big terms and "agree" for the most part, as long as most of what they hear/read seems to sustain their personal points of view. This brings us back to what I said in the opening here about toning down the "I'm smarter than all of creation" image you paint in your writing to a level in which the common "man" can actually translate what you are saying and decide, with a more clarified sense of perception, if or not he/she/it agrees with your assessment. "They" quickly lean towards agreement with what I share because I'm speaking their language -- I speak to them and not at them, as my granny used to say.

Pardon if I got your reply "wrong" but I'm just a simple guy that learned what he knows by being in the trenches of life and fortunate enough to stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the leading authorities on theology, philosophy and metaphysics (including Hermetics) as a whole. I know enough to note that "New Age" is not a "religion" but a mode of thought that comes out of an eclectic gathering of actual traditional teaching and some far left conjecture/fantasy/delusion. Like any such "fringe" factor, it tends to be rife with all forms of verbal gymnasts peddling the same snake oil but with different bullet points. When Angels first became cool all the books about fairy magick were suddenly retitled and slightly edited so that Angels were called upon instead of the fey folk. Then John Edward & Co. hit the scene in a big way so everyone is now talking to dead people... the list is outrageously long but the story always the same. That's one of the main reasons I chose to break out of the mold that's been exploited for eons and simplify it all; robbing the church of its devils & demons while robbing the patron of their excuses and delusions. When it's boiled down to the bare bones and all the clutter tossed off to the side, the "truth" can be easily found. It's not nearly as phenomenal as our ancestors kept making it out to be and I'm confident our grandchildren's grandchildren will be saying the same thing about how we presently see the spiritual and miraculous... the unexplainable and phenomenal, as their science not just explains it, but makes it all accessible and very much "real" ;)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 04 Jun 2010, 08:24

I apologise if my language is too technical, but I know of no other words to describe the same.
The best I can do is clarify things that you have not understood, and I have been told by several
people I have a gift for that. I can explain complex metaphysics to the common person, with
simply arguments, examples and illustrations.

You will not be able to make the spiritual go away, whether that be descriptions of angel, demons and
spirits and explain them away as energy vibrations, dancing quarks, and information fields,
because the latter is merely an effect of the spiritual. Ultimately, everything is spiritual and has
spiritual causes. The ancients were not far off when they said that disease was caused by demons,
and the gods govern the principles of nature. The true reality of the universe is much like the enchanted
universe of the child, it is magical, fully of magical places and magical beings and divine beings like
angels, masters and gods, as well as hells and demons. This is because the universe is the nature of
imagination and therefore everything is posible. I was once taken aback when my Gnostic teacher was
describing astral battles with demons, and it was as if he was describing something from fantasy,
he was describing firing rays of light at them, drawing magic circles around yourself to create magical sheids
around you, and uttering spells and incantations to make various things manifest. He also describes the existence
of astral councils of masters of light and masters of darkness. He described to me astral civilisations, kingdoms
of elves, fairies, wizards and witches. He also told of astral schools, like Hogwartz, where people are taught
magical powers.

Then I realised why I was having such a reaction. It is because our minds have been disenchanted by modern science,
where we want scientific explanations for reality. It has to be explained in terms of atoms, waves, energy fields or
holographic projections. We balk when we hear descriptions like "rays of love" "love frequency" "Mother Earth" "Father sky"
because we have been programmed to think of this as primitive. We want impersonal descriptions. You yourself declare you
want to get rid of this language completely. However, ask any regular astral travellers, and they will tell you that the true nature
of reality is just like the enchanted world of the child. It is magical. I myself have experienced it, my Gnostic teacher regularly
astrally travels and reports the same, and one of biggest authorities on astral travelling Robert Bruce also confirms it. Near death
experiences also confirm it. We need to re-enchant our views of reality and regain the sense of wonder and magic of the child.
Bring back the gods, fairies, elves, angels, demons.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 04 Jun 2010, 08:47

Metaphysical terms are very tempting to describe reality such as absolute reality,
universal consciousness, subject-object interactions, illusion, phenomena, noumena,
psychophysical complex, causality, universal, particular. The philosopher falls into this
trap. To a large extent I have fallen into this trap, but I am starting to come out of it...

The scientists falls into the trap of trying to describe things scientifically, energy,
atoms, matter, waves, quarks, actvity, inerial frames, space-time, dimensions,
probability, holographic fields, implicate and explicate order.

This is nothing more than just word play and both are traps. If you go beyond words
and try to explain reality you will experience it in terms of the archetypal forms, the
language of feeling, love, spirit, community, imagination. As soon as we realise that
the very substance of reality is imagination, then we will realise that it is absolutely
boundless and everything is possible.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby ciscop » 04 Jun 2010, 15:18

Indigo Child wrote:Metaphysical terms are very tempting to describe reality such as absolute reality,
universal consciousness, subject-object interactions, illusion, phenomena, noumena,
psychophysical complex, causality, universal, particular. The philosopher falls into this
trap. To a large extent I have fallen into this trap, but I am starting to come out of it...

The scientists falls into the trap of trying to describe things scientifically, energy,
atoms, matter, waves, quarks, actvity, inerial frames, space-time, dimensions,
probability, holographic fields, implicate and explicate order.

This is nothing more than just word play and both are traps. If you go beyond words
and try to explain reality you will experience it in terms of the archetypal forms, the
language of feeling, love, spirit, community, imagination. As soon as we realise that
the very substance of reality is imagination, then we will realise that it is absolutely
boundless and everything is possible.


or being real... you are just talking mumbo jumbo
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby really? » 04 Jun 2010, 20:44

Indigo Child wrote:Metaphysical terms are very tempting to describe reality such as absolute reality,
universal consciousness, subject-object interactions, illusion, phenomena, noumena,
psychophysical complex, causality, universal, particular. The philosopher falls into this
trap. To a large extent I have fallen into this trap, but I am starting to come out of it...

The scientists falls into the trap of trying to describe things scientifically, energy,
atoms, matter, waves, quarks, actvity, inerial frames, space-time, dimensions,
probability, holographic fields, implicate and explicate order.

This is nothing more than just word play and both are traps. If you go beyond words
and try to explain reality you will experience it in terms of the archetypal forms, the
language of feeling, love, spirit, community, imagination. As soon as we realise that
the very substance of reality is imagination, then we will realise that it is absolutely
boundless and everything is possible.


Since you've realized you gone beyond words you've realized anything is possible, let's see if anything is possible.
Let's see if anything's possible. Tomorrow when the Sun rises I'd like you to walk to the Sun not towards the Sun but walk to the Sun. Pack a lunch and something to drink for I've heard it's a long long walk.


Last edited by really? on 04 Jun 2010, 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Jun 2010, 22:42

While a cruel jest, I have to second what Really? is saying here. But the axiom "Anything is possible" get's tossed around in such a random way from the faith-filled as well as intellectuals.

Ok Indigochild, let me clarify one thing... I don't wish to rob people of the spiritual experience, just their ignorance. I want them to better understand what they are dealing with and why (most likely) the "Old Ones" designed the various exercises and rites as they did; all of it hosting very specific purpose that has nothing to do with invoking the Gods, Dead People, Big Bad Guys, etc. but rather addressing one's own psyche -- our higher-self (deity)or lower-self (demonic).

We know today that numerous illnesses that we can now treat are the very same demons and devils that were "cast out" by the prophets, seers, healers, messiah, etc. 2,000+ years ago. We can understand why certain natural springs were seen as healing; not because of literal "magick" but the minerals and other qualities of the water and how such interact with a variety of human ills. So again, we find logical/scientific reasons for the "miraculous" or "enchanted".

The "Wise Ones" were such because of education, be it an understanding of nature on the most base of expression (low magick) or through the study of planets, chemicals, minerals, etc. (high magick... which actually evolved into present day sciences of chemistry, astronomy, physics, etc.) Too, as far back as Hermes and Pythagoras you will see how the analytical was a part of the mystical. It was only through the influence and rise of Christianity that a separation was invented; an illusion that allowed Orthodoxy to gain an upper-hand by way of segregation and being able to point to one thing and call it "Evil" and another as "good". But they ended up tripping over their own two feet as people started getting educated (thanks to the printing press) and realizing a greater truth... and the truth will set you free!

I'm an exceptionally spiritually oriented man... hell, I work as a Psychic and Metaphysical teacher and author (as well as retired entertainer). I've not just studied, I've participated in and been initiated through several Western occult traditions, New Age elements like Alpha Consciousness, Science of Mind, Course in Miracles, etc. I'm likewise a hobbyist in things like Ghost Hunting, PSI Research and the whole Holy Blood/Holy Grail intrigue but I'm also a realist. My "faith" as it were, is based on the more miraculous and unexplainable and impossible to replicate experiences I've had over the years; experiences that prevent me from becoming a total and immersed atheist... and trust me, I've more than enough reason to think in that direction, starting with the duplicity found in nearly every single religion and formalized philosophy (a.k.a. cult tradition) going with the Abrahamic trinity leading the way with the most lies, deceptions and public betrayal bar none! Hell, Hitler and Stalin are Saints compared to the atrocities of "The Church" the past 2,000 years. :twisted:

So the fact that all things are "spiritually based" is a bit of a misnomer. Yes, "man" is here as a spiritual entity having a physical experience. But we are not here to bend over and kiss the glowing tukkiss of some ego claiming to be a "god" or better than us. No, "God" (whatever that might be) put us here (metaphorically speaking) TO LEARN... to Become as He. Our "Quest" (at least in the majority of the teachings I'm aware of) has always been evolutionary and moving towards the center which is where Nirvana becomes known... when we awaken to the reality that we really are "connected" to all things... we are all things... not due to mysticism but because of the scientific realization that we are atomically, chemically and on so many other mundane levels "Space Dust" just like everything else. The "Spiritual" side to all of this is what happens when we finally thump ourselves across the forehead as the result of realization -- waking up and actually seeing the trees that make up the forest rather than being blinded by them and seeing only the blanket they create upon the landscape.

The forests are vast and layered, begging us to dig ever deeper. This is the spiritual journey!
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 05 Jun 2010, 01:00

Craig, the biggest illusion of our times is that we have progressed. We see our civilisation as a deparature from the "primitive" civilisation of the past, starting our civilisation from the rationality of the Greek philosophers and the beginning of analytical thinking there, which ultimately culminates in scientific empiricism, replacing all previous spiritual descriptions of reality with scientific ones.
The premodern descriptions of demons and evil spirits as the cause of disease, is replaced by germs, microrganisms and viruses. The descriptions of gods controlling the elements is replaced by laws of nature. The descriptions of lifeforce regulating our body is replaced by biological systems. We are told this is "progress" over our "primitive and superstitious" ancients.

Hogwash, all we have done is replaced one description with another description and turned our new description into a dogma. However, this dogma has not lasted and in the 20th century positivism was defeated. It was no longer right to say anything positively is the cause of something, because whatever we think something is, we later learn it is something different altogether. All science has done is exposed its ignorance about not knowing what anything is. However, the esoteric traditions know exactly what things are. They know that the causes of all things are spiritual and then they become denser and denser resulting in what we call physical reality. In the Ayurveda tradition for instance they knew about the existence of germs and microrganisms as early as 5000 years ago, called "Krimis" and gave extensive descriptions of various types of Krimi and what they look like physically, according with descriptions by microbiologists, without the aid of microscopes. It also explains that they really were demons in the higher planes.

Likewise the ancients knew about the body and its various biological systems, but they also knew that the body had more fundamental levels of reality such as the etheric pranic body within which lifeforce flowed. More fundamental than these going in a sequence of density is astral, mental, causal/intentional and spiritual. In other words at the most fundamental level of reality everything begins as spiritual causes.
Modern science is not far off in realising that there are more fundamental causes than physical causes. In other words it is just going to come full circle to the same explanations premodern people gave gods controlling nature not laws, demons causing disease not germs, spirit regulating the body not biological systems.

As I discussed earlier while it is impossible for something physical to evolve into something non physical, it is not impossible the other way around. Something non physical can gradually become physical through a process of gaining density. Just as before there is anything we call solid physical matter, it is fluidic energy. If you take the chain way back you gradually realise everything is pure spirit and the entire world is a transformation of spirit. It is therefore all the imagination of spirit. When you realise the imaginative nature of reality, you can play with it just as a child plays with his imagination.
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Re: If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

Postby Indigo Child » 05 Jun 2010, 02:08

Since you've realized you gone beyond words you've realized anything is possible, let's see if anything is possible.
Let's see if anything's possible. Tomorrow when the Sun rises I'd like you to walk to the Sun not towards the Sun but walk to the Sun. Pack a lunch and something to drink for I've heard it's a long long walk.


I am not a spiritual master or adept, therefore I cannot do that. The masters, however, probably could.
However, even the masters do not like doing such things, because each plane of reality has its own laws and when
ever we act against them we create a disturbance in the plane, which mirrors back to us. This is why the masters
are so reluctant to show miracles. That said many masters have have done many "miracles" Patanjali describes
many powers that we can develop in Yoga teleportation, increasing and decreasing in size, walking on water,
levitation, flying, becoming invisible, seeing into the future, controlling another person's body, controlling the
weather, materialising things, supersensory perception, superhuman strength, transforming into another thing
(Most of these are covered in chapter 3 of the Yogasutras) You can literally become a god-like being. This comes
from the realization that the stuff of the world is actually made out of mind stuff so we can play with it.

A famous master of modern times Yogananda describes many masters he met in the Himalayas and the powers they had
in his classic "Autobiography of a Yogi" One amazing story he recounts is when his master Babaji materialised a massive
golden palace out of nowhere for him. He asks Babaji how he could do this, Babaji explains:

"'I will gladly enlighten you.' My companion's dark eyes sparkled with wisdom. 'In reality there is nothing inexplicable about this materialization. The whole cosmos is a materialized thought of the Creator. This heavy, earthly clod, floating in space, is a dream of God. He made all things out of His consciousness, even as man in his dream consciousness reproduces and vivifies a creation with its creatures.

"'God first created the earth as an idea. Then He quickened it; energy atoms came into being. He coordinated the atoms into this solid sphere. All its molecules are held together by the will of God. When He withdraws His will, the earth again will disintegrate into energy. Energy will dissolve into consciousness; the earth-idea will disappear from objectivity.

"'The substance of a dream is held in materialization by the subconscious thought of the dreamer. When that cohesive thought is withdrawn in wakefulness, the dream and its elements dissolve. A man closes his eyes and erects a dream-creation which, on awakening, he effortlessly dematerializes. He follows the divine archetypal pattern. Similarly, when he awakens in cosmic consciousness, he will effortlessly dematerialize the illusions of the cosmic dream.

"'Being one with the infinite all-accomplishing Will, Babaji can summon the elemental atoms to combine and manifest themselves in any form. This golden palace, instantaneously created, is real, even as this earth is real. Babaji created this palatial mansion out of his mind and is holding its atoms together by the power of his will, even as God created this earth and is maintaining it intact.' He added, 'When this structure has served its purpose, Babaji will dematerialize it.'


This only seems amazing to somebody who believes this physical reality is real, solid, hard, tangible. To one who knows this reality is actually fluidic like water, and actually manifests from thought forms, this is not amazing at all. In the astral reality it is infinitely easier to play with reality, and flying into the sun in astral reality or travelling to other galaxies is childs play. However to do the same while in physical reality is infinitely more difficult. We even find it hard to move a glass on a table with our mind , forget about flying to the sun lol
Last edited by Indigo Child on 05 Jun 2010, 03:23, edited 1 time in total.
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