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Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Discussions about Afterlife Research, Survival Science, Near Death Experiences, Out of Body Experiences, Spirit Communication, Mediumship, Ghosts, Spirits, etc.

Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 15 Jun 2010, 18:24

Indigo Child wrote:
You have not demonstrated your point, "It is gibberish" You need to show how and why it gibberish. You failed to answer many questions I raised.
Why can't we find "you" inside the brain? Why can't I just look into your brain and find your thoughts, personality, feelings, desires, memories?
If we are the brain, how can we be know we are the brain?
If you are thoughts, personalities, beliefs etc, then who is it that is aware of your thoughts, personalities and beliefs and can change them?


As I have stated, I don't have time to answer every one of your questions.

As for our thoughts, we are getting close to being able to do just that. From: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ad-my-mind
"Neuroscientist Kendrick Kay and his colleagues at the University of California, Berkeley, were able to successfully determine which of a large group of never-before-seen photographs a subject was viewing based purely on functional MRI data. By analyzing fMRI scans of viewers as they looked at thousands of images, Kay’s team created a computer model that uses picture elements such as angles and brightness to predict the neural activity elicited by a novel black-and-white photograph. Then the researchers scanned subjects while showing them new snapshots. Most of the time Kay’s model could single out which image the subject was viewing by matching its prediction of brain activity to the actual activity measured by the fMRI scanner, although very similar pictures tended to baffle the program."
I believe that if you did some of your own research, you will find they are beginning to determine personality traits based on brain imaging.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 15 Jun 2010, 19:18

Indigo Child wrote:While you answering the questions in the previous post, you can also answer
the unanswered questions I left for you in the Human Flying thread regarding
conclusive experiments on astral projection:

Other experimenters including Robert Morris at the Psychical Foundation of North Carolina spent two years investigating OBEs. A volunteer subject Keith 'Blue' Harary, who claimed to have been having out of body experiences since childhood, was able to lie down in a sealed laboratory room and project himself to another house twenty yards away. While there he was able to read letters and report accurately on which experimenters were sitting there and where they were sitting.

In the United States, Karlis Osis and Boneita Perskari spent several years doing scientific research with an excellent OBE subject, Alex Tanous, and were able to achieve significant results. One particular test involved Tanous traveling astrally to a different place miles away to visit a particular office to see what was on the table then report back. Tanous did not know that at this office a psychic, Christine Whiting, was waiting to see if she could see anyone coming to visit. With her clairvoyant sight she was able to see Tanous come into the office and as well she described in detail his position and the shirt with rolled-up sleeves and the corduroy pants he was wearing (Williams 1989: 35-36).

French researchers including Professor Richet spent many years having the exteriorized body move material objects, produce raps at a distance and affect photographic plates and calcium screens. They photographed exteriorization.
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter07.html

The late Karlis Osis, of the American Society for Psychical Research, sought to determine whether a physical instrument could detect a psychic's "astral body" at the time he was attempting to view a hidden target through his astral vision. Osis installed a strain gauge (which detects extremely subtle physical movements) in front of an optical device in which a graphic "target" was concealed. The setup was such that the image could only be perceived face-on - from the place where the strain-gauge was located; otherwise, from a different angle, a viewer would only see overlapping lines. The psychic Alex Tannous, who was not told about the strain gauge, was asked to attempt to project in front of the optical apparatus, and describe what he saw. Osis found that the strain gauge registered significantly more movement in those trials in which Tannous gave correct descriptions of the target. The implication may be that some facet of Tannous' mind was indeed "projecting" in front of the optical apparatus.

In the mid-1970s, Dr. Robert Morris and his colleagues conducted an interesting experiment with psi researcher Keith Harary as subject. Like Miss Z, Harary - at the time a psychology student - seemed able to voluntarily induce an OBE. His kitten, enclosed in a cage and constantly filmed, was to act as a biological detector of Harary, who would attempt to 'project' his consciousness into the cage from a distant room. Indeed, it was found that the kitten's agitation - its movements in the cage - was significantly reduced specifically at the moments at which Harary had been instructed to project his consciousness into the cage. Over time, however, the kitten's "baseline agitation" decreased, and its reactions to Keith Harary seem to have declined - perhaps as it became habituated to the experimental conditions (i.e., being locked in a cage!)

http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm

In all these studies I have mentioned there are sufficient controls and all involve the subject having to project to another location to see a target/s, they also involve some kind of detector at the location to detect the astral body. These are therefore conclusive studies for the reality of astral projection.

Your examples appear to be anecdodal at best and hardly "conclusive." Could you please provide a reference for the actual experimental protocols please? I couldn't find any.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Indigo Child » 16 Jun 2010, 03:12

As I have stated, I don't have time to answer every one of your questions.


However, you do have time to tell people that they are speaking "gibberish" ;)
If you are not going to commit to a debate, then don't enter the debate and
make claims which you are too lazy to defend in the end.

As for our thoughts, we are getting close to being able to do just that. From: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ad-my-mind
"Neuroscientist Kendrick Kay and his colleagues at the University of California, Berkeley, were able to successfully determine which of a large group of never-before-seen photographs a subject was viewing based purely on functional MRI data. By analyzing fMRI scans of viewers as they looked at thousands of images, Kay’s team created a computer model that uses picture elements such as angles and brightness to predict the neural activity elicited by a novel black-and-white photograph. Then the researchers scanned subjects while showing them new snapshots. Most of the time Kay’s model could single out which image the subject was viewing by matching its prediction of brain activity to the actual activity measured by the fMRI scanner, although very similar pictures tended to baffle the program."
I believe that if you did some of your own research, you will find they are beginning to determine personality traits based on brain imaging.


Sigh, did you actually watch the video I posted above. This is the easy problem. We know there are neural correlates for mental states,
what we don't know is how can any number of physical processes create something non-physical. Just as we know that if we play a radio
there are physical correlates to the music, if I turn a dial I can tune in to a radio station, if I turn the switch on and off I can turn the music
on and off. Does this mean the music is being produced inside the radio? Of course not.
Last edited by Indigo Child on 16 Jun 2010, 03:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Indigo Child » 16 Jun 2010, 03:16

Your examples appear to be anecdodal at best and hardly "conclusive." Could you please provide a reference for the actual experimental protocols please? I couldn't find any.


So are you actually claiming these experiments were not done as they have been described? Prove it.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jun 2010, 04:46

Indigo Child wrote:
Your examples appear to be anecdodal at best and hardly "conclusive." Could you please provide a reference for the actual experimental protocols please? I couldn't find any.


So are you actually claiming these experiments were not done as they have been described? Prove it.

What you are doing by stating "Prove it" is irrational and emotionally charged because your back is against the wall on this. Here is an example of what you are doing. I'm going to tell you flat out that I conducted an experiment on my wife last night and she was able to use the paranormal powers of her mind and float my dog in the air at a height of 2 feet for 12 seconds. Now, go and tell the world that you have proof of the paranormal! Oh wait, you would like to see the parameters of the experiment? SO WOULD I !!!!!!!!!
I don't know if they were or were not done as they were described. Do you? Of course not, unless you can provide the case study of the experiment which, it appears, you can't provide. Hence, you're argument has failed again. Sorry.
Either provide the protocols and/or controls from the experiment or admit that you are providing evidence of something without it. I tried to do your job for you and look up one of the cases you provided and all I got was a reference to Victor Dammit or whatever the hell his name is.
You are the one telling me there is concrete evidence for the paranormal, yet you've shown nothing so far. I WOULD like to see it though and will continue to wait patiently.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jun 2010, 05:01

Indigo Child wrote:[Appeal to authority fallacy. I don't care what the science museum web site says.
I am asking you to answer a simple question. How does any number of physical processes lead to non physical and subjective states. Do you believe your computer and thermostat is thinking? Your camera is seeing? Your radio is hearing?

I find it hysterical that you don't care what a science museum web site says, yet you want me to watch a youtube video made by Chewbacca in a T-shirt. Just hysterical.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Indigo Child » 16 Jun 2010, 05:24

Nope Prowag, I am asking you to work with the available evidence.

Are you claiming that the experiments described by these two sources

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter07.html
http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm

Did not happen as they have been reported? I other words are you accusing these sources
of distortion, lying or misrepresentation? Prove it.

I did some more research and found a web site giving very detailed technical descriptions
of the experiments(and other experiments) and detailed diagrams and analysis straight from the
publications by the original researchers.

http://www.towardthelight.org/neardeath ... apter.html


Figure 10.3. Physical layout of the Osis-Tanous experiment, showing floor plan of the laboratory. The OBE subject, Alex Tanous, was located in an isolated, sound-attenuating room on one end of the building (shown at far right). The optical image device, to which he attempted to "go" in the out-of-body state and view, is on the opposite end of the building, shown at far left in the diagram. Also there are the strain gauge sensors, in a motion-isolated shielded cage. During successful OBEs, the strain gauges indicted that some physical energy force passed into the chamber, disturbing the strain sensors.
The correlation of a strain gauge signal with Tanous’ correct answers indicated that "something" approached the target window at the times when the viewing information was correct. The optical sensors showed that this "something" was invisible. Yet the strain gauge sensors indicate that it had electrical properties or was able to induce mechanical disturbances. This suggests that the "astral body" has detectable physical attributes, even though it is usually invisible to humans.


You are the one with the back against the wall here, not me. The evidence here is overwhelming, and you
claim there is no evidence. You are being exposed here for the pseudoskeptic that you are.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jun 2010, 05:33

Indigo Child wrote:Nope Prowag, I am asking you to work with the available evidence.

Are you claiming that the experiments described by these two sources

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter07.html
http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm

Did not happen as they have been reported? I other words are you accusing these sources
of distortion, lying or misrepresentation? Prove it.

I did some more research and found a web site giving very detailed technical descriptions
of the experiments(and other experiments) and detailed diagrams and analysis straight from the
publications by the original researchers.

http://www.towardthelight.org/neardeath ... apter.html


Figure 10.3. Physical layout of the Osis-Tanous experiment, showing floor plan of the laboratory. The OBE subject, Alex Tanous, was located in an isolated, sound-attenuating room on one end of the building (shown at far right). The optical image device, to which he attempted to "go" in the out-of-body state and view, is on the opposite end of the building, shown at far left in the diagram. Also there are the strain gauge sensors, in a motion-isolated shielded cage. During successful OBEs, the strain gauges indicted that some physical energy force passed into the chamber, disturbing the strain sensors.
The correlation of a strain gauge signal with Tanous’ correct answers indicated that "something" approached the target window at the times when the viewing information was correct. The optical sensors showed that this "something" was invisible. Yet the strain gauge sensors indicate that it had electrical properties or was able to induce mechanical disturbances. This suggests that the "astral body" has detectable physical attributes, even though it is usually invisible to humans.


You are the one with the back against the wall here, not me. The evidence here is overwhelming, and you
claim there is no evidence. You are being exposed here for the pseudoskeptic that you are.

Thank you for the one link. I will look into the Osis/Tanous experiment and report what I find.
To answer your question though, no, I don't believe a word Victor Zammit says. And neither should you.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jun 2010, 10:56

The Osis/Tanous experiments are indeed interesting. A few questions I would have for Osis, however, include how many "hits" and "misses" did Tanous have? Were his hits significant? It says a reading suggested his body was actually projected in front of the target. Was the stain gauge sensor properly calibrated? What exactly were the targets he was trying to read? Were there a set of targets that he already knew and could make educated guesses? Were they completely picked out by an uninterested third party. Unfortunately, I didn't see those questions answered in that article which, by the way, was not a journal article, but a post on a supportive website. I'd also like to see the peer reviews of the journal article, however, that is not necessary for me to properly review the experiment if I had more of the specifics of the experiment.
I won't give this experiment a fail just yet, but will if I'm unable to obtain the answers for my questions above.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Indigo Child » 18 Jun 2010, 00:22

Yep, the strain gauge sensor was properly caliberated. Can you prove it wasn't? In any professional
scientific experiment baseline readings would be taken of your measuring device. Look at the link again
and look at the grapth for those baseline readings. The sensor was registering significantly more activity
during "hits" than it did with "misses" If the sensor was not working properly, then it would have been giving
same readings during misses as well. It wasn't, therefore it was caliberated correctly to detect "hits"

What is significant here is not what the target image is. The target was a special target randomly
generated by the optical device which was a picture which consisted of various colours in 4 quadrants
the final picture was put together by black and white outlines, a colour wheel and mirrors, so that the
full image could only be seen from one position. What is significant here that the strain gauge detected
significant activity during the periods hits were made, and at other times it did not. Thus suggesting that
there really was something present in the room looking at the target.

Source: http://www.psychwww.com/asc/obe/faq/obe22.html
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Scepcop » 18 Jun 2010, 00:29

NinjaPuppy wrote:I must have missed this thread back in June. Some Wiccan teachings touch on some of these questions in relation to the Wiccan "Summerland".

Basically, you die and have the option to hang out in Summerland or return via reincarnation. You can pick the time but not the circumstances. It all boils down to the lessons you have yet to learn in life. None of your previous teaching stays with you as memory but the lessons learned stay with you as part of your basic personality. You keep going through similar sets of circumstances until you 'get it right' then you graduate to the next lesson.


That's interesting. And it would explain why we are born with different personalities. Or born with phobias and strong likings toward certain things.

But I don't think I would choose to return to Earth if I didn't know what kind of life I'd get. I mean sheesh. Who wants to be born starving in Africa and live only a few short years? Most people are suffering, and so the probability is that you'd be one of them. I can't imagine who would choose that rather than ascending to a higher plane. Especially since you could choose an impure life and then your spirit would de-evolve and possibly even go to hell. Seems way too risky.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Scepcop » 18 Jun 2010, 00:31

ProfWag wrote:That's certainly one possibility Indigo!!! Of course, the other one is that when we die, we rot away without leaving anything but some bones.


Ok ok Profwag. Your opinion on this has already been noted. You don't need to repeat it. That's redundant. Just let the others answer the question ok?

Otherwise, if you keep repeating that, it'll look like you're trying to push your views onto others. It's already been noted.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 09 Oct 2010, 02:49

I get it, SCECOP throws out a thought and watches Indigo and Prof “Fight it out” in the best sense the phrase can have when referring to a dialogue between irreconcilable positions (barring extraordinary new evidence)

SCECOP: First, if there have been say, sixty billion human bodies born that carried souls, and ten % are here now, then if reincarnation is at all frequent, we must be running short of souls. However, as the magafauna become extinct, tigers, buffalo, and the dodos have been filling the gaps, thus accounting for serial killers, american idol fans, and people who watch Maury Povich.
Second, I once, in a largely scientific but also highly personal mood, tried to arrange a seance to find the body of a murdered friend. The plan ganged agley, resulting in my becoming a Xian and getting married without getting even a glimmer of an answer (Except that “God” told me that if I had gone to Waco to see a prophet He had sent there, I would have found out (!?) )
I dislike “believing” in things. Its a slippery path, once I start I end up believing in everything.

The following is primarily addressed to Indigo's information, also to SCECOP, who asked. Prof, I am risking losing your respect here :). Please remember, this is my Shakespeare mode talking about the Beta hypotheses.

Still, I seem to be starting down that path now, as I have found four mathematical statements that, taken together and inflated with lots of animal spirits, seem to describe a 3 part set that would automatically generate everything else that is or could be, and could be equated with the Xian and or Hindu Trinities (See my math mysticism article in “Esoteric”. Epistemology is my worst vice.).
Leaving aside the question of the reality of pure math, a strong implication of this theory is that information is “real”. It is perhaps even the part of the noumenon we experience directly, as Platon thought. (I am aware of the dubious quality of information. I like Heinlein's view of “information” as consisting of “Fictons”. Personally I am make a further distinction between fictons and “dictons” (“from spoken”) meaning “communicated statements.” A ficton unspoken makes no sound. That's why I am blogging.
A secondary implication is that fictons are the content of awareness, and awareness is “real” and fundamental. This corresponds to the way I have experienced the universe. I suspect that awareness is implicit in everything, from photons to beyond galaxies, although I suspect any photon is “smarter” “more aware” than the universe itself.
This implies also, although much less strongly, that Awareness is, in some sense “more than mortal.”

With that said, I have justified to myself talking about how many angels can dance on a pinhead, or how many people can queue to reincarnate as Pamela Anderson or the Prince of Wales. My next big leap of faith would be to assume there is something worth examining in anecdotal evidence.

My model of the “soul”, the barakami, is outlined in the “If there is a soul...” topic. In my model, the barakami is, in miniature, a set of the body (ba), the memory (ra) and the unknown noumenon (ka) collectively making a kami. In your model, Indigo, the ra and ka seem to be, collectively, what you mean by soul.

Up to this point Twain has scrutinized everything Shakespeare has said. Beyond this point, its “Here be Dragons” These are the kinds of thoughts I have when I fall asleep. I must think and edit before Twain will let Shakespeare speak anymore. Peace, Love, and Wit.
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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 09 Oct 2010, 03:42

Here come the Dragons (Shakespeare)

Scecop - Why would one return to earth?
The japanese kami has three parts.
When the body (ba) is consumed by fire, animals, or decay, and the memory (ra) has lost touch with "dictons" in the memory of the living, and even the Ka has faded (and no record exists of one's existence on Earth,) it nirvanizes and snuffs it.
If, before that, after the ra has faded, when the ka is getting dim, what little is left finally realizes, if its still hungry (has unfulfilled desires) it must feed through reincarnation. As Indigo points out, this is the realm where progress can be made. If its still hungry, it comes back.

In the West we have the Egyptian model. At the beginning of the historical record, we find the Royal Pharaohnic immortality cult full blown (I do have a very funny story about King Tut's Curse and immortality) It gradually evolved, through the Book of the Dead and (derivative) mystery cults, into the cult of Horus Jesus Christ, wherin a pleasant immortality is offered to all. The idea is so powerful that it not only infected Judaism, but emerged in a pure monotheistic form in Islam.

And here we hit head on the subject of gods. A ka, so long as it is remembered in the minds of generations that did not know the ra, is a god in the sense Euhemerus said. In a phenomenal sense, “Henry Ford” “Kung Fu-tze” and even “Jesus Christ” still exist and influence events. Noumenally, they may even be said to have an awareness and persona constructed by those who “remember them”

(Chinese dragon coming) I suspect most gods were once incarnate, including sports teams and Coca-cola (or are those just idols? ;) ) At least since Siddhartha, the gods have known they must incarnate in order to nirvanize. Even powers that were not human to begin with (Vishnu and Shiva, maybe even Logos, although that is a frightening thought. “The good news is, Jesus Christ is coming back. The bad news is, he's pissed”) have allegedly incarnated, since this is where things happen.

A last dragon. The Mazdakians said only the set of the ineffable, and its principles of entropy and synergy, were “worthy of divine honors” and all other gods were “devas” unworthy of worship because their morals were demonstrably human and flawed. But a deva who reincarnates to nirvanize, or a power that incarnates to benefit the world, is a bhoddisatva.

(Twain thanks you for letting him let his inner jungian run free. Prof, I think Twain can defend every statement up to the one's about reincarnation as being also valid dialectical materialist descriptions of things with real world referents. Shakespeare)

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Re: Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

Postby Paradox » 14 Feb 2011, 05:59

I'm not sure and I've asked myself these same questions as well. According to Silver Birch only 50% of the people on earth 'reincarnated'. The rest have come from the Source or Great Spirit itself. This is why I like Pearson's Grid Theory of consciouness (I know I should get a statue of the guy) because it explains so much. There is the oversoul issue where someone can exist in the spirit world AND be reincarnated onto the physical plane at the same time. The grid theory says that our true mind never leaves the body (even at death) but is always situated in the same place in outer space. What we experience as reality comes from transmitting this consciousness through our 'brainminds'. At death it is not our consciousness that leaves our bodies but an etheric duplicate with its own brain to experience this consciousness from the fragmented sectioned off 'mind' seated in outer space in another universe or reality. This would explain how someone like a deceased loved one could be there for us in the afterlife while reincarnating at the same time. These different fragaments of our true higher self (our true mind situated in the ether of outer space) are experienced through different brainminds made for different matter systems. I know this sounds out of there but what better way is there to describe the issues of physical life, etheric life, reincarnation and the concept of oversouls? If you are a believer anyway. I know the sceptics would already say this is nothing but a bunch of hot ether. lol.

As far as the vibration thing goes I suppose this would make sense. The universal law of cause and effect aka karma. You reap what you sow. I can't answer all of your questions. Perhaps reading White Eagles teachings would help after reading Silver Birches since according to Victor Zammit White Eagles teachings are considered more advanced. From what I've read almost everyone, even those in the higher realms of heaven beyond the third plane will eventually have to reincarnate. Depressing thought. I've also read about the Great Spirit giving some tormented souls in the lower hellish realms the chance to reincarnate since another physical life would be more likely to save them then the more gradual 'enlightment' in the etheric realms better known as the universal law of progress. Wow this stuff is complicated! :shock:
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