Questions about Reincarnation and Afterlife planes

[Scepcop]

I have a question about reincarnation. Do we choose our lives on Earth? If so, wouldn't everyone choose to be born rich, attractive, healthy and with an easy life? Who would choose to be born as a starving child in Africa who dies after a few years? What would that accomplish? A sick child causes a lot of grief to their parents. Who would choose to do that?

Also, what if everyone chose the same life, how can there be enough "great lives" to go around? Wouldn't most be forced to be born in poverty since most of the world is in poverty?

I read a book about astral planes, and it said that after we die, the plane that we are attuned to will be where we end up, the good go to higher planes, and the bad go to lower planes, etc. But most people are not all good or bad. They are a mixture of good and bad qualities. A lustful person might be a kind loving generous guy who has a good heart with basic morals. So where would he end up, if he has a mixture of wholesome and unwholesome traits? Would they be tallied to see which side was higher?

If departed spirits can hang around Earth for a while to be contacted by mediums, then how does that reconcile with the idea that beyond the physical plane, time as we know it does not exist and is not governed by clocks? If there is no time in other planes, then why would they only be around for a finite time? Wouldn't they have an eternity to hang around if they wanted to? I can't comprehend this. New Age books I've read mention both of these concepts but do not reconcile them.

[Scepcop]

Also, why don't mediums like George Anderson, who have a very impressive record, try to solve mysteries by contacting deceased spirits like Jimmy Hoffa to find their body. Or Lee Harvey Oswald to uncover the truth about the JFK assassination, etc.? Or contact Barbara Olsen to find out what happened to her on Flight 77 on 9/11, which is missing and probably didn't crash into the Pentagon since there were no significant pieces of debris, and not even the engines made of titanium steel, which can withstand anything, survived. There are too many discrepancies about Flight 77 and unknowns. Why don't mediums try to get to the bottom of such mysteries?

[ProfWag]

[NinjaPuppy]

[Indigo Child]

I am copying this post from the introduction forum, as this is a better forum to discuss it in:

Some of these are questions which puzzle me as well, and I realise I will never get the full answer to them until I pass over. In absence of that I have to rely on the testimony of others, especially NDE'ers. Yes, most people are selfish, greedy and materialistic because they are on the lower planes. One thing that all NDE'ers and Astral projectors report that as soon as you enter the astral everything becomes more alive, more vivid and we feel a lot less heavier. On the other hand, if you are caught up in the infra levels of the astral, it becomes even more horrific. This is where the nightmares take place and many people who go on bad trips on drugs go. When we pass over, it is said that we go to that plane which we are most attuned to.

Regarding space and time in the higher planes. This is a difficult question and the answer is relative. It seems that in the astral there is no space and time, as you can fly around at will, go forwards and backwards in time, use your will go anwhere you want. At the same time there appears to be space and time, because you still have an awareness of body, space and temporality. Moreover, there are even higher planes above the astral such as the mental, causal and spiritual. A story is told in the Hindu Puranas which maybe quite illuminating. It mentions how a king visits the highest plane Brahmaloka and waits there watching a musical performance by celestial dancers, the king then asks the god Brahma that he wants his counsel on a suitable husband for his daughter, at which Brahma laughs, telling him in the short time he spent in Brahmaloka, eons had passed on Earth. This would suggest that time flows at different rates in each plane.

Now, the question to be asked is do the astral planes actually come into existence on creation or are they eternally existent. An answer answer to this is given in the Purusha Sukta in the Rig Veda. The Purusha Sukta says that all of reality consists of 4 parts, of which only 1 part is constantly being projected and created and destroyed, whereas 3/4th always remain abstract, hidden and eternal. In other words the astral plane and its many levels is eternally existent. There is this very interesting notion in Vedic thought that the physical plane is the most important plane for self-development, designating it as the plane of action, and is the plane where one can deal with karma. It for for this reason even the gods desire to incarnate here.

Your other question was why would anybody in their right mind incarnate in some third world country, as a mentally or physically challenged person, or within a dysfunctional family, or during a time of great strife. Surely, everybody would want to incarnate as royalty. However, we are only saying this from our current perspective where things like having a beautiful body, a great mind, a royal family and living in a comfortable age seem desirable, we are not looking at this in terms of soul entities, to whom what is pleasurable is not necessarily good. The soul works in terms of dealing with karmas and it chooses bodies which can help it deal with karmas. When the soul passes over it reviews its entire life for the progress it has made, and based on that review, together with support from its guides, angels and well wishers, it chooses a new body. In this phase the soul also enjoys or suffers the results of its actions in the various planes for its recent actions, as preparation for the next. As the soul passses through these various stages in preparation many years are passing on Earth, and then the soul chooses the right vehicle through which it can best work out its karma. Sometimes, the soul may choose parents or siblings to whom it has karmic issues to resolve with.

[ProfWag]

[Indigo Child]

Prowag,

I can only consider a possibility if you can first show it is possible. I answered your
argument in another thread, but I will present a very brief and shorter form. The
"you" part is not your body. The "you" part is your mind which is not reducible to your
body. Your body is extended, divisible, local, mechnical, your mind is nothing like it,
it is not-extended, it is indivisible, it is non-local, it is intentional(i.e., it works in
terms of desires) and it is experiential(emotions, feelings). You are only in association
with a body, you are not actually your body. Hence why "you" are conscious of the body
as something which belongs to you, which you control. This body of mine is not going to
go anywhere unless I tell it to.

The part that you call body is based on a report we get from 5 senses of the outer dimension
of reality. The part we call "mind" is the report we get from a 6th sense of the inner dimension
of reality. Now science backs this up as well, everything we see outwardly has an inner dimension
which is not physical. This is why we cannot find the location of the mind in the physical, we
have looked at every nook and cranny of the brain, and we have not found anything called mind. On
the contrary the neurbiologist Karl Pribram has found the mind to be a non-local thing.

Obviously the inner dimension is more fundamental than the outer dimension. Atoms precede molecules,
energy precedes atoms. Likewise, mind precedes the physical. So you are not going to lose your mind by
losing your body, as much as you are not going to lose your body by losing your clothes. In actual fact, you
have already lost the body innumerable times, what happend to your body 20 years ago? It's gone. It has
been replaced with a new body long since over and over again. In fact the cells of your body are constantly
being replaced. Still "you" remain. So why should it be any different when you lose your body for the last time?

Your mind does not need a body to exist. Your mind can disassociate from your body anytime it wants. For
instance you can be hearing something, your ears are receiving the sound waves and your brain is receiving
the electric signals, but still you do not listen to it, because your mind is somewhere else. In NDE and OBE
experiences, where the mind completely disassociates from the body, you can see your body lying down, whilst
"you" are standing outside of it.

When your mind completely leaves the body your body will fall apart, because the intelligent controller within has
left which was holding it all in place. Isn't it interesting than just how rapidly the body decomposes as soon as
consciousnessness leaves the body.

[ProfWag]

To use your own words Indigo: "I can only consider a possibility if you can first show it is possible. "
You have written much but said little. Everything you are saying about the body and mind being separate is your belief and that is fine with me. But there is really no evidence to support what you are saying other than what you believe and what others believe. I happen to believe that there is no soul or anything similar. The possibility that a part of you continues after death is illogical to me and has no evidence to the idea. I have not seen anything in my readings or experience that an afterlife is even possible. Using NDEs or astral projections that have been explained does not do the trick. As such, using your own words, reworded a bit: I can only consider the possibility of an afterlife or reincarnation if you can first show it is possible. I have considered the possibility, and you have provided information that in your mind makes it possible, but in my mind, it is not even probably. Sorry, but your argument is not convincing to me. In my world, people die. We bury them, remember them, learn from their lives, and that's pretty much it. The living move on. I know that some people have a hard time with the concept that there is no afterlife. That this is all there is. Well, guess what? It is. This is all there is. I'm going to make the most out of the time I have here. I enjoy life and everything it has to offer. I can't waste my time being afraid to fart because someone's God will banish me to Hell. I can assure you that I have never been happier with my life than I have been since I logically concluded there is no God. No Deity. No Nothing.
Wag

[Indigo Child]

[ProfWag]

[Indigo Child]

[Indigo Child]

The following video explains some of the points I have raised more directly:



In summary: In absence of the explanation of how any kind of physical process can lead to the mind,
your insistance that the mind and the brain are the same thing is pure belief.

[ProfWag]

I won't argue about whether or not the brain thinks. Here's a reference: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/brain/69.asp

Actually, I believe you are confusing epistomology and ontology rather than logic and ontology, but that's okay. I understand.

The rest of what you said was gibberish and does not begin to explain reincarnation, afterlife, or how an animal can continue to exist after the body becomes devoid of oxygen.

[Indigo Child]

[Indigo Child]

While you answering the questions in the previous post, you can also answer
the unanswered questions I left for you in the Human Flying thread regarding
conclusive experiments on astral projection:

Other experimenters including Robert Morris at the Psychical Foundation of North Carolina spent two years investigating OBEs. A volunteer subject Keith 'Blue' Harary, who claimed to have been having out of body experiences since childhood, was able to lie down in a sealed laboratory room and project himself to another house twenty yards away. While there he was able to read letters and report accurately on which experimenters were sitting there and where they were sitting.

In the United States, Karlis Osis and Boneita Perskari spent several years doing scientific research with an excellent OBE subject, Alex Tanous, and were able to achieve significant results. One particular test involved Tanous traveling astrally to a different place miles away to visit a particular office to see what was on the table then report back. Tanous did not know that at this office a psychic, Christine Whiting, was waiting to see if she could see anyone coming to visit. With her clairvoyant sight she was able to see Tanous come into the office and as well she described in detail his position and the shirt with rolled-up sleeves and the corduroy pants he was wearing (Williams 1989: 35-36).

French researchers including Professor Richet spent many years having the exteriorized body move material objects, produce raps at a distance and affect photographic plates and calcium screens. They photographed exteriorization.
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter07.html

The late Karlis Osis, of the American Society for Psychical Research, sought to determine whether a physical instrument could detect a psychic's "astral body" at the time he was attempting to view a hidden target through his astral vision. Osis installed a strain gauge (which detects extremely subtle physical movements) in front of an optical device in which a graphic "target" was concealed. The setup was such that the image could only be perceived face-on - from the place where the strain-gauge was located; otherwise, from a different angle, a viewer would only see overlapping lines. The psychic Alex Tannous, who was not told about the strain gauge, was asked to attempt to project in front of the optical apparatus, and describe what he saw. Osis found that the strain gauge registered significantly more movement in those trials in which Tannous gave correct descriptions of the target. The implication may be that some facet of Tannous' mind was indeed "projecting" in front of the optical apparatus.

In the mid-1970s, Dr. Robert Morris and his colleagues conducted an interesting experiment with psi researcher Keith Harary as subject. Like Miss Z, Harary - at the time a psychology student - seemed able to voluntarily induce an OBE. His kitten, enclosed in a cage and constantly filmed, was to act as a biological detector of Harary, who would attempt to 'project' his consciousness into the cage from a distant room. Indeed, it was found that the kitten's agitation - its movements in the cage - was significantly reduced specifically at the moments at which Harary had been instructed to project his consciousness into the cage. Over time, however, the kitten's "baseline agitation" decreased, and its reactions to Keith Harary seem to have declined - perhaps as it became habituated to the experimental conditions (i.e., being locked in a cage!)

http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm

In all these studies I have mentioned there are sufficient controls and all involve the subject having to project to another location to see a target/s, they also involve some kind of detector at the location to detect the astral body. These are therefore conclusive studies for the reality of astral projection.