View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

Why do some have NDE's near death, while others don't?

Discussions about Afterlife Research, Survival Science, Near Death Experiences, Out of Body Experiences, Spirit Communication, Mediumship, Ghosts, Spirits, etc.

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Eteponge » 13 Apr 2010, 05:19

Maddogkull wrote:Have you ever heard of the DMT theory and that is the reason we hallucinate before death? That right before we die we get a massive dose of DMT realised (read The Spirit Molecule) before we die. And that is what makes us hallucinate during an NDE.

The argument of The Spirit Molecule is not entirely that these are hallucinations, but rather than the drugs producing the state, they act as a door to a state of perceiving realities and experiences that in our normal waking state, we are unaware. This is similar to the whole "Ketamine causes NDEs" argument.

The Skeptic Sources refering to the Drug Ketamine causing NDEs are referancing an old paper by Ketamine Researcher Dr. Karl Jansen, who has since totally changed his stance on Ketamine actually causing the experiences, and is now far more open to the metaphysical component of NDEs. His current hypothesis is that Ketamine and other triggers of NDEs/OBEs simply act as a "door to a space" rather than actually producing that space. He states that his findings now are more in line with other researchers in his field such as John Lilly and Stanislav Grof.

"I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'." (Dr. Karl Jansen)

Melvin Morse M.D. wrote an insightful article titled "The Right Temporal Lobe And Associated Limbic Lobe Structures As The Biological Interface With An Interconnected Universe" that is along these lines of thought.

Of course, the NDE Experience contains many Veridical Details associated with many of the encounters, which suggests far more is going on than a mere "Hallucination".
"I think Eteponge's Blog is a pretty cool guy. eh debates Skeptics and doesnt afraid of anything."
User avatar
Eteponge
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 13:26






Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Eteponge » 13 Apr 2010, 05:28

Maddogkull wrote:New Article saying Carbon doxide might be the reason.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 192448.htm

You've never actually read many NDE accounts before, have you?

As IANDS points out, these are the most intriguing aspects of the NDE Phenomenon ...

* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?

* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?

* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?

I'd also add, NDEs of the Blind. Where persons Blind have seen verifiable events during their NDE. One example, is a man who went totally blind early in his life (cannot even see shadows, etc), who, during his NDE many years later, saw the doctors, nurses, surroundings, events, etc, and reported back on it to the doctors when he revived. He even told the doctor he was wearing a red and green tie.

Please, tell me how "Carbon Dioxide" can account for all of that?

Thanks for the link though, it will make a great laughing stock when I link it to fellow NDE Researchers.
"I think Eteponge's Blog is a pretty cool guy. eh debates Skeptics and doesnt afraid of anything."
User avatar
Eteponge
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 13:26

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 13 Apr 2010, 05:39

lmao i have no idea, i belive in ndes. I give you articles i am not sure of. you answer them and we all go home happy :lol:
Maddogkull
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 02:47

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Eteponge » 13 Apr 2010, 06:30

It's always best when engaging a topic of discussion to be well read on all sides of the issue. Being familiar with the proponent arguments, the skeptic arguments, and the content of the original source materials. If you aren't all that familiar with the topic, and are just tossing random skeptic articles you haven't actually read, and saying, "Refute this!", that doesn't lead to a particularly interesting dialogue.

Skeptics like Nostradamus on this forum I actually respect, because he'll actually take the proponent arguments on head on rather than resorting to personal attacks and ridicule, and will search the web and look for additional information on whatever topic we are discussing, and will even critique the original source materials. That's what skeptics should do. Alas, most of the skeptics I come across online are quite content with just spamming personal attacks and ridicule and then posting a few skeptic article links (that they probably haven't even read for themselves) and then moving on.
"I think Eteponge's Blog is a pretty cool guy. eh debates Skeptics and doesnt afraid of anything."
User avatar
Eteponge
 
Posts: 300
Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 13:26

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NucleicAcid » 13 Apr 2010, 09:41

After taking Research Methods & Statistics, and reading all the debates in parapsychology, I'm actually a little jaded towards conventional research now. Because it's already plausible stuff, no one bothers to look at it nearly as closely as they do something they are trying to pick holes in. "New research" and "Cutting edge" simply means "Probably hasn't been replicated yet."

In the case of this study, it's okay I suppose. I've written longer reports on SPSS data for in-class exercises. It's definitely prospective: with a group of 11 NDErs, you really can't pull a correlation on much of anything. It's interesting. It definitely doesn't explain NDEs by any means, but it might be something correlated. What I found weird is that they didn't run any sort of analysis on the 'degree of being dead' so to speak. This I think is rather important, especially the degree of brain death they experienced (may preclude remembering experiences). Not to mention lower O2 levels in the brain should correlate with being more dead, which should correlate with NDEs. Obviously, in the spiritual NDE model, you have to at least have a foot out the door in order to have an NDE of the classical variety. I'm also not sure if they differentiate from the feeling of out of body, mystical experiences, and seeing light, vs having an actual OOBE, seeing the room around them, livid experience NDE.

This is why I don't trust media reports of science research, ESPECIALLY cutting edge. It's a good direction to move in, but people (especially non-scientists) attribute far too much weight to things that are meant to be exploratory. It's meant for scientists to read and say, "Hey, that's neat" and want to try it themselves.
Hey, you there. Yes, you. Read more journal articles.

If what I say sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown (Wah wahh woohh wuh waah), then you should try college. It's fun, and only costs you your soul and several tens of thousands of dollars. :)

“I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven“ - Richard Wiseman

Let's make directional hypotheses, test them repeatedly, replicate experiments, and publish results! Yay, science!
User avatar
NucleicAcid
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 26 Mar 2010, 04:20

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 14 Apr 2010, 04:09

I got a question. Why would a doctor try to revive someone after 15 minutes, I have never heard of that before. longest time to use the paddles is like 5 min max.
Maddogkull
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 02:47

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NucleicAcid » 14 Apr 2010, 04:12

The envelope of "clinically dead" has been continually pushed. People keep trying to revive people longer and longer after clinical death occurs, because we humans seem to cling to life :).
Hey, you there. Yes, you. Read more journal articles.

If what I say sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown (Wah wahh woohh wuh waah), then you should try college. It's fun, and only costs you your soul and several tens of thousands of dollars. :)

“I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven“ - Richard Wiseman

Let's make directional hypotheses, test them repeatedly, replicate experiments, and publish results! Yay, science!
User avatar
NucleicAcid
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 26 Mar 2010, 04:20

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 14 Apr 2010, 06:59

Not true. No doctor will try for 15 minutes to revive someone. They would try 5 times tops and that woul only be in a timeframe of 5 minutes. So its either they came alive on there own, or the articles you read are lying to you.
Maddogkull
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 02:47

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NucleicAcid » 14 Apr 2010, 07:29

Again, not all dead is created equal. Their heart might be stopped, but they might have cooled their body to prevent brain damage for an operation (and they died in the process). I don't have any specifics, I was just stating that it's possible to be "dead" for quite a while. Where did you get the 15 minutes number, anyways?
Hey, you there. Yes, you. Read more journal articles.

If what I say sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown (Wah wahh woohh wuh waah), then you should try college. It's fun, and only costs you your soul and several tens of thousands of dollars. :)

“I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven“ - Richard Wiseman

Let's make directional hypotheses, test them repeatedly, replicate experiments, and publish results! Yay, science!
User avatar
NucleicAcid
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 26 Mar 2010, 04:20

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Dmustard11 » 20 Apr 2010, 01:44

Why don't some people have an nde?
Well think about this question..why don't some people dream? Or why don't some people hallucinate when they've taken drugs.
Basically, everyone's brain is different, though the structure is obviously similar BUT it could be something as simple as genetics. Perhaps people with more vivid imagination are more prone to have an OBE or NDE, or perhaps the part of the brain which creates the NDE illusion may be more active in some people.
This is an interesting question, but I think it's as simple as some people are fortunate enough to people to experience the illusion where as others aren't.
Dmustard11
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 20 Apr 2010, 01:39

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NucleicAcid » 20 Apr 2010, 05:00

All people dream. But some people do not remember their dream.

Perhaps all people have an NDE on the edge of death, but not all remember them?
Hey, you there. Yes, you. Read more journal articles.

If what I say sounds like the teacher from Charlie Brown (Wah wahh woohh wuh waah), then you should try college. It's fun, and only costs you your soul and several tens of thousands of dollars. :)

“I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven“ - Richard Wiseman

Let's make directional hypotheses, test them repeatedly, replicate experiments, and publish results! Yay, science!
User avatar
NucleicAcid
 
Posts: 169
Joined: 26 Mar 2010, 04:20

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others

Postby The_Grand_Illusion » 06 Sep 2010, 07:53

NucleicAcid wrote:Again, not all dead is created equal. Their heart might be stopped, but they might have cooled their body to prevent brain damage for an operation (and they died in the process). I don't have any specifics, I was just stating that it's possible to be "dead" for quite a while. Where did you get the 15 minutes number, anyways?



You're quite right, Nucleic. Some ppl have been clinically dead a LOT longer than that--days, for instance--and been revived without any brain damage. In fact, some NDEers who've been dead way longer than deemed "possible" have found their perceptual and/or creative abilities enhanced in the aftermath.
Brendan D. Murphy is the author of the forthcoming book series on the nature of reality and consciousness, The Grand Illusion: A Synthesis of Science, Mysticism and the Occult. Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/The-Grand-Illusion-TGI/151764238172173?ref=ts

It's all just a dream, and the dream is dreaming itself...
User avatar
The_Grand_Illusion
 
Posts: 48
Joined: 30 Aug 2010, 20:20

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others

Postby Js1981 » 05 Jul 2011, 22:54

Hi
I am a mew one here.
I experience all NDE', OBE, AP while lucid dreaming.
I have Lucid Dreamed for years. Once came across a philosophy of time slowing down while asleep and by that chance I gained full control of analyzing my dreams.
I am sure based on my own experiments that OBE and Mediumship exist only whitin your brain and I can post my own conclusion on what I based my knowledge here. I know that I can keep two realms and operate my dream and my real body at the same time( I actually had occasions of my real body saying words I was saying while a Lucid Dream)
I am also stating by now that NDE' is in fact a solid form of a Lucid Dream and would like to know what you think about it.
User avatar
Js1981
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 21:23

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others

Postby NinjaPuppy » 06 Jul 2011, 03:48

Welcome to the forum.
User avatar
NinjaPuppy
 
Posts: 4002
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 20:44

Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others

Postby Js1981 » 06 Jul 2011, 06:56

Thank you.

My observation started years ago, I could sleep for few minutes and have a better sleep than sleeping whole night, I also had a memory of a dream lasting hours.
I sometimes had sleeping paralysis when my mom had to wake me up and ability to project objects after waking up. I neer understood any of it.

I later came across a theory that sleeping time stretches and goes slower than the real one. There even is a book about it. I found it totaly crazy and with my increasing ability to control my dreams I started experimemting.
My conclusion:
OBE - it isn't a philosophy, as I can control my dream surrounding it doesn't shock me, I can take my time and analyze my dream visualisation, all details.
OBE happens very much in your mind not out of your brain, the problem is that people can't understand subcociousness or are too shocked to do so. There isn't a special force it all happens in the brain.
How I know it? Simple:
If I picture OBE(which became a part of my lucid dreaming) and I am placed in a surrounding I know, my brain creates a hundret percent real looking 3D projection of the place where I sleep.
How do I know it is a dream:
I feel my physical body along my dream body and remember details. If I went to bed with no switching the lights on, my dream would have details like curtains, sheets from the last time I saw my bedroom as I wouldn't know my girfriend changed them. Those difference make you aware what is real and what isn't.

How do I know I lucid dream in places I haven't been before rather than having an OBE? Simple:
Hospital scene. I float, see machines, doctors, faces I saw the day before, my real ears still register sound. When I wake up the surrounding is clearly projected by my brain from logical knowledge like movies or similar places. All equipment is of course different to what I saw in supposly OBE as I don't know nothing about hospital machines yet my brain knows to place them in the logical scenario.

Medium:
Astral Projections are not controlable projections of your subconciousness.
At the begining I could speak to GOD or a force and received answers to any questions. In fact I was talking to my subconciousness. I later developped a way of seeing all events in 3rd person. I was asking and I was answering. I was all roles of my dream/trans.

By a method of luck I tried to measure a real dream length to debuke a time slowing theory. I was right, a short dream giving illusion of lasting long is like watching a movie. It last 90min but shows action of the movie over years, it is a jump between most important scenes. You don't dream of eating 3 meals a day, going to toilet, brushing your teeth - just straight to the point like in the movie.
That about a silly theory of time perception changing.

Doing it many times I actually started creating present time dreams as:
I dream continouity for 4 hours and my body sleeps same 4hours.
By a luck I got bored by it and started shouting for my girlfriend to wake me up.
She actually heard my real body calling and since then that was the sign:
If my body shouts asleep it means that I want be woken up from a dream I can't control.
That is why I know I am all roles of my dreams and I don't meet anyone as my real body really speaks all roles, it is me conciousness asking and my subconciousness answering- bizarre but true.

I can also feel now, my body is cold if I dream of skiing, I cough awake if I dream I have a flu. It is strange but as it doesn't shock me anymore I can freely analyze any position while I am draming like: colours, sound, architecture of known places etc.

I am sorry for my poor english but that is why I don't belive in OBE, NDE, Mediumship and Astral Projections as it is simply a Lucid Dream when you get your consiousness to meet your subconciousness. It is an illusion.
User avatar
Js1981
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 21:23

PreviousNext

Return to Afterlife Research / Ghosts and Spirits

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest