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Locked Sagan Thread

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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby ProfWag » 17 Mar 2010, 09:55

Nostradamus wrote:I remember the protest marches in the US where people staged rallies against the space program. There were rallies with people carrying signs complaining that any money spent on space was a waste of money. Kevin you missed your place in time. Those rallies were are a part of history.

Sorry ND, I don't remember it. But then again, I don't think I'm as old as you... (sorry, couldn't resist. :-) )
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 18 Mar 2010, 23:34

Anyway, NASA's budget has been cut, it's Constellation program has been killed. It's currently retooling for Earth science. And many space nuts are pissed and angry at Obama. Even to the extent of supporting a LaRouche candidate for Congress whose entire agenda is: Impeach Obama - Colonize Mars.

The Planetary Society, Sagan's lobby group, is looking at private funding and even Chinese and Russian help for a mission to put the first potheads on Mars.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Mar 2010, 01:23

But where do skeptics stand on support for NASA and human exploration of Mars?

Some skeptics belong to the Planetary Society and similar Space groups and strongly support NASA Science Fiction type ideas.

Some skeptics support Lyndon LaRouche. Mostly eco-sceptics, but they do have some scientific skeptics. LaRouche even made a film about Mars exploration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sunc3Co7Qjk

Some skeptics support libertarians like Ron Paul .. who want to defund NASA of public money but support private sector development. But at the same time, they oppose Obama's cuts because they hate Obama more than they love NASA.

Some skeptics support the Zeitgeist Movement / The Venus Project .. who are suspicious of NASA and don't support their agenda. The VP ultimately calls for NASA to be abandoned.

Altogether, I'd say skeptics are conflicted about NASA and Mars colonies ... but the important thing is .. they all support marijauna.

WEED >> NASA
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby really? » 19 Mar 2010, 03:07

Holy cow KK you do have a bug up the ol' arse and that's putting it mildly when it comes to NASA and skeptics.

With the links you provided[ which I did not read] it obvious skeptics have varied opinions. Just like everyone else in the population.
Poo-pooing NASA as some idiot taxpayer waste of money is a bit short sighted. NASA has many spinoffs that have made your and our daily life easier more productive and more enjoyable. Things I doubt you are or have any inclination to want to know.
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

What have skeptics ever done to you that makes you ridicule them so. Let me guess


1. We point out the emperor has no cloths.
2. That today the emperor will probably not be wearing any cloths.
3. And that the chances of the emperor ever wearing cloths seems to be unlikely.

Have I guessed right ?
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 22 Mar 2010, 01:37

Why does NASA always attempt to justify it's existance? Look at the Space Shuttle program. We spend billions (and human lives) on that flying turkey simply to grow space crystals and to fix the Hubble. We could have funded 5 Hubble telescopes for the price it cost to fix one ($1.5 to 2.1 Billion new - $10 Billion with repairs). And how did a $36 Million (budgeted) piece of equipment get to be $1.5 Billion in the first place? Oh thats right ... NASA is not really about science, or usefulness and practicality ... it's about jobs.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 22 Mar 2010, 01:38

Before getting a bone marrow transplant, Carl Sagan wrote this article for Parade Magazine:

http://www.bauleros.org/saganenfermedad.html

--------------

"There were, as you might guess, many scary aspects. I remember one night, on medical instructions, getting up at 2 a.m. and opening the first of 12 plastic containers of busulfan tablets, a potent chemotherapeutic agent. The bag read:

CHEMOTHERAPY DRUG

BIOHAZARD BIOHAZARD

TOXIC

Dispose of as BIOHAZARD

One after another, I popped 72 of these pills. It was a lethal amount. If I was not to have a bone-marrow transplant soon after, this immune-suppression therapy by itself would have killed me. It was like taking a fatal dose of arsenic or cyanide, hoping that the right antidote would be supplied in time.

The drugs to suppress my immune system had a few direct effects."

-----------------


Carl Sagan died as a result of Pneumonia due to a chemo/radiation suppressed immune system. He probably would have lived longer if he had done nothing. From a legal perspective, Carl Sagan is entirely responsible for the decisions which ended his life. But I have to wonder, if he had researched his decisions, if he had known how he would die, would he take the treatments he believed in?


1 in 4 cancer treatment deaths are caused or sped up by chemo:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008 ... 418640.htm


But the number of deaths due to chemo are artificially low and probably much higher:

http://www.naturalnews.com/025499_cance ... ealth.html
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Mar 2010, 01:51

1 in 4 cancer treatment deaths are caused or sped up by chemo:

That's your typical and purposeful misquote. I'd have to label such a purposeful misquote a blatant lie.

No surprise there.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 22 Mar 2010, 03:09

That's exactly what the study shows and what the article cites.
Here's the study:
http://www.ncepod.org.uk/2008sact.htm

My statement was not a quote or misquote. So how is my brief yet accurate summary dishonest?

.....

Hey Mr. Skeptical Science Critical Thinkee Type Guy, swallowing a lethal amount of poison probably isn't a smart thing to do.

YA THINK?!
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Mar 2010, 07:01

late-stage cancer patients

You left out this important issue making your statement extremely misleading, aka a lie.

YA THINK?!
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby really? » 22 Mar 2010, 08:37

Kevin Kane wrote:Why does NASA always attempt to justify it's existance? Look at the Space Shuttle program. We spend billions (and human lives) on that flying turkey simply to grow space crystals and to fix the Hubble. We could have funded 5 Hubble telescopes for the price it cost to fix one ($1.5 to 2.1 Billion new - $10 Billion with repairs). And how did a $36 Million (budgeted) piece of equipment get to be $1.5 Billion in the first place? Oh thats right ... NASA is not really about science, or usefulness and practicality ... it's about jobs.


For one that has his head in the clouds all the time you'd think that the real promise of human space exploration would have you all giddy with excitement.
And why do you ignore the beneficial spinoffs from NASA that have helped us and as collateral created more jobs.
And when did providing jobs become a bad thing ?
And what are you so damn angry for ?
And I know in your mind you make perfect and reasonable sense, but from over here, well... exactly how big is that bug ? I know a competent proctologist that'll get rid of it for ya.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 22 Mar 2010, 09:16

Nostradamus wrote:
late-stage cancer patients

You left out this important issue making your statement extremely misleading, aka a lie.

YA THINK?!


Same as Carl Sagan. In context, what I said is true. Out of context .. not even misleading. People can judge for themselves. That's why I provided a link with my blurb. Talk about knit-picking, anal-retentive, OCD skeptic nutjobs.

Sagan had faith in science and medicine. In his last interview (Charlie Rose) he said he felt lucky to be living at a time when medicine could fix his problems. He was confident in his recovery, delusionally reassuring himself that he was totally cured. The fact is .. Carl Sagan died because his immune system was destroyed, not just from cancer, but by chemo and radiation therapy. One day, people will probably look back at the kind of treatment he recieved and shake their heads at how primitive his treatment was.

“Better the hard truth, I say, than the comforting fantasy." - Carl Sagan
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Mar 2010, 10:15

In context, what I said is true.


What you stated was a lie. I am not surprised that you lied. I am not surprised that you misstated. You have this aversion to telling the truth.

Your claim is now that you provided a link so people could see that you lied. That's good thinking.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Mar 2010, 10:32

Here is Kevin's statement.
1 in 4 cancer treatment deaths are caused or sped up by chemo


The study included the following:
The starting point is a death that occurred within 30 days of having chemotherapy; this is a small minority of such treatments.

Bolding mine.

The study did not consider all patients receiving chemo. It considered only a small fraction. To suggest that this study covers all chemo patients is wrong. The study and linked to articles make that clear. Therefore, the statement originally written by Kevin was clearly and obvious written to mislead.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Mar 2010, 10:43

The next lie connected to this statement is connecting this article to Carl Sagan. Sagan would not have been included in the British study for a number of reasons, but mainly because he did not die within 30 days of the initiation of chemo.

It is a false claim to associate Sagan with the British report. His situation did not overlap with the study that was done.

Kevin, do better research next time. You can do it.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 22 Mar 2010, 14:04

Nostradamus has yet to provide evidence that I lied or intended to decieve. Hence, Nostradamus is again lying and making false statements. End of silly pointless Nostradamus side distraction.
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