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Locked Sagan Thread

Discuss PseudoSkeptics and their Fallacies. Share strategies for debating them.

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 00:23

It's not entirely non-invasive. On the level of general information, it's relatively non-invasive, but at the level of the very small, it may have an effect. And it's not a measure of direct neural activity, but of blood flow. Other scanning methods use x-rays, gamma rays, radioactive tracers ..[sic] to measure blood flow or tracer absorption.


Sorry once again you are completely and utterly wrong in the non-invasive issue.

This is not electrophysiological in nature of course.

And I did point out that what you linked to was not the same type of information as an electrophysiological measurement. And I do know how it works, but thanks for telling others how it works.

I think you are a little confused on these what these other imaging modalities are used for.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 00:40

Kevin you definitely stated, as I showed earlier, that you said
There is no 'thought information' encoded in the brainwaves


No weaseling out Kevin. That is what you said. Are you saying that you didn't say that, or are you saying that you want to change your stance?

You continue to insist that the information is low frequency noise. The recording is not noise. If it were noise, then by definition there would be no information. But there is information. I've shown you that thoughts can be detected in brain wave recordings.

Again, you continue to fall back on the fallacious argument of incredulity. Repeating a fallacious argument
does not change the false nature of the argument. What it does is lend credence to the notion that the
person repeating the fallacy is a pseudoskeptic.

Again you claim information was provided to play the music. All of the information has to be deciphered, even the instructions. Why should the instructions be easier or harder to decipher than the materials they refer to?

Now you ask:
How do you decrypt something without a key?

You incorrectly answer:
Some sort of reference.


I'll let you figure out your mistake on your own.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby The Warrigal » 11 Mar 2010, 03:35

Strewf!! :shock: A bloke goes away for a litle while and all hell breaks loose.

I see no reason at all for banning Nostradamus. - (What has he done to deserve that)?

With respect Kevin. - What do you hope to achieve by insulting other members and even more provacatively, - Moderators? :?

Victor Zammit is held, - (wisely or unwisely), - in high esteem by Australian Spiritualists. - And as a professional lawyer, he is an articulate gentleman, more than able of defending himself here if he felt the need.

I don't agree with every opinion of Victor Zammit's any more than I disagree with every critique of the paranormal made by Richard Dawkins or James Randi for example.

Both sceptics and non-sceptics seem to agree that there is phenomena which as yet, is unxplained and currently defies our best efforts to classify it definitively.

Forgive me if I am wrong. - But I thought that the whole purpose of paranormal research was to find a scientific explanation for unexplained phenomena.

I am not much of a space afficianado, so things like SETI seldom catch my eye.

If the late Carl Sagan was an optimist in relation to SETI, he was in good scientific company as the mathematical odds against our earth being the only planet capable of supporting inteligent life are immense.

Well that's as far as my thoughts carry me here for now.

I shall now adjourne to consult further with my spirit guides. - (Bundaberg Over-Proof Rum. - The very best kind). ;)

Cheers!
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Mar 2010, 06:18

Good to see you back Warrigal.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby The Warrigal » 11 Mar 2010, 07:39

Thanks Ninja!

It's nice to be back. :)
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 11 Mar 2010, 08:51

Brainwave recordings are not pure waveforms but fluctuate. The fluctuations indicate brain activity of some sort, and some information can be deduced from it .. with reference (eg..general moods, alertness, etc). The data within the wave forms and extra medical data, does not include individual ideas, thoughts, memories of Ann Duryan. It's an electrical cloud signal of the body and brain.

Here's a rough equivalent of what we are asking the alien finders of the voyager golden record to do. Tell us what a specific lightening bolt looks like .. by listening to a low quality recording of the thunder it made.

Tell us what Lee Harvey Oswald looks like .. by listening to the Dallas police dictaphone recording of the gun shots.

We sent an hours worth of unreadable and worthless data into space.

Maybe we should have sent the aliens a copy of the Indus Script. Because was can't figure it out, and we have more references for Indus than for decrypting brainwaves.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 09:01

Brainwave recordings are not pure waveforms

Not sure what you mean here, but a wave is a wave. Even a flat line is a wave.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 11 Mar 2010, 11:14

I meant stable waveforms.

Image

Hook up your computer processor to an EEG machine and look at the output signal. Based on the signal, ask the question: what program is your computer running, what is in the computer memory? Hey .. it's impossible.

In summary: Carl Sagan couldn't understand what his wife, Ann Druyan was thinking most of the time. So he spent most of his life looking for magical space aliens who could.

Kooky pothead.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 12:35

Hook up your computer processor to an EEG machine and look at the output signal. Based on the signal, ask the question: what program is your computer running, what is in the computer memory? Hey .. it's impossible.

In summary: Carl Sagan couldn't understand what his wife, Ann Druyan was thinking most of the time. So he spent most of his life looking for magical space aliens who could.

Kooky pothead.


So you post an example of a number of waveforms and label them stable. Why do you call them stable? Do you have a definition of stable? I bet you can't provide a definition of waveform or stable that does not include the flat line ss the most stable waveform of all.

I guess you don't understand what a waveform is. That doesn't surprise me. Your analogies are poor as well. Your claim of impossibility is yet another pseudoskeptical logical fallacy of incredulity.

Your summary is just a statement of your limitations. Kooky.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 12:53

Here's a rough equivalent of what we are asking the alien finders of the voyager golden record to do. Tell us what a specific lightening bolt looks like .. by listening to a low quality recording of the thunder it made.

Tell us what Lee Harvey Oswald looks like .. by listening to the Dallas police dictaphone recording of the gun shots.

These statements just illustrate your lack of knowledge in this area. That's okay. You are like most people. You have no background in these issues. Remember you are the one that pointed to the mapping of fMRI visual cortex data to the images being viewed by subjects.

We sent an hours worth of unreadable and worthless data into space.

This is your opinion - nothing more nothing less. Apparently, people thought this was completely wrong decades ago.

You don't seem to understand a host of issues here. Maybe a few of these need to be repeated.
1. Your statements on a non-invasive being invasive are wrong. Here the terminology is the commonly used definition of medicine.
2. You made incorrect statement about x-rays, gamma rays, and other imaging modalities
Other scanning methods use x-rays, gamma rays, radioactive tracers .. to measure blood flow or tracer absorption.

3. Your claims of a key requirement for decryption are wrong - I left the challenge to you to figure out obvious places where keys are not available
4. You claim that the waveforms are noise - again quite wrong
5. You claim that brain waves do not contain thought yet this was clearly demonstrated to be wrong
6. You don't understand what a waveform is
7. You have purposely avoided the issue that even the instructions need to be decrypted

All you keep falling back on is the claim of incredulity. That's a logical fallacy. It basically says that just because you don't understand something has no bearing on the issue.

I can easily accept that Kevin Kane thinks something is a waste. That's your opinion and you can have it. But you can't prove it a waste. That would take evidence and you have provided nothing at all.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 12:54

Out of curiosity, when you posted recently did you sign off as kooky pothead? It sure looked like you were saying that's what kooky pothead has to say.
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 11 Mar 2010, 21:07

It's funny how skeptics can't recognize fantasy-based pseudoscience when it's done by skeptics. The voyager golden record makes so many false assumptions,it fails at critical and scientific thinking. It's no wonder why they kept the information about the brainwaves a secret for so long.

Here's the question for (pseudo) scientists: Can you guess what's in my refrigerator by analyzing the electrical hum of the fridge motor? It's power consumption, cooling cycles, and noise output? Get back to me on that, won't you?
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 22:20

Again Kevin you point to a bad example in an effort to demonstrate that you are a pseudoskeptic relying on the fallacy of incredulity. Actually, this example is an irrelevant example verging on misrepresentation of the issue at hand.

First, let's make it clear that the hum is not due to the motor as you claim. It is a hum due to the compressor. Secondly, the hum of the compressor is not related to the food contents of the refrigerator. The hum is related to the controls inside of the refrigerator.

The only one you are fooling by these bad examples is yourself. I have already shown that thoughts can be extracted from brain waves. It has been done. End of story.

You might want to look over the following website to avoid the logical fallacies in your arguments:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info
Take a look at least at these issues, but don't stop there:
1. weak relevance
2. red herring
3. strawman fallacy
4. argument from ignorance
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Mar 2010, 22:26

It's no wonder why they kept the information about the brainwaves a secret for so long.

You make this specific and testable claim. How long do you believe that this was kept a secret? When do you think that the secret was "revealed"?
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Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 12 Mar 2010, 00:30

It's news to me. The only source of this information appears to be Ann Duryan herself.

I don't see how the aliens will ever decrypt Ann's brainwaves. Carl Sagan forgot to include a phrenology map of Ann's skull.
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