View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

Locked Sagan Thread

Discuss PseudoSkeptics and their Fallacies. Share strategies for debating them.

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 10 Mar 2010, 10:57

Let me try again. What is it that you need help in understanding in regards to Ann Druyan? What is not clear to you?
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08






Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 11:53

Let me explain the science to ya. There is no 'thought information' encoded in the brainwaves, or in the ECG data or other medical data on the golden record. Just as there is no thought information in more modern brain data techniques (PET scans).

I was just watching the NatGeo channel about LSD trips. They showed brain PET scans of LSD users. They all looked the same, but their trips were not the same. No thought information was encoded in the scans ... or the brainwaves.

No Thought Information = Brain dead pseudo-science.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 12:27

That's not to say the brainwave information doesn't contain any useful data. It can be used to detect autism, epilipsy, or other abnormal thought patterns. It's a low frequency waveform, a low humming vibration which can be useful for meditation. Listening to your refrigerator hum can also be used for meditation. It can be used to feedback responses in brain detection systems, to control things. But this requires:
1) A human brain (not included on Voyager)
2) Detection software (also not included).


For an alien civilization to find any pattern in the brainwaves (um .. *toke* .. yeah), it would require a reference database of (human) brain signal inferences to compare it to. Something we don't have ourselves. But consider the variables .. where the sensors were placed, the shape of the subject's head, recording equipment, resolution quality, etc. all color or distort the information.

An hour's worth of humming noise without any meaning or message is all the data will ever be.

If the alien civilization wanted to understand the data, they would need a human brain to study. Which is an invitation for alien invaders to harvest humans for medical study like lab rats ... or to eat for lunch. I will blame Carl Sagan if this happens:

Image
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 10 Mar 2010, 13:36

You seem to have posted contradictory statements:

There is no 'thought information' encoded in the brainwaves

It can be used to detect autism or other abnormal thought patterns.


Hmmm. Let me explain the science to ya.
This is a measurement of electrical signals often taken at the surface of an organism although that is not the case in many experiments with animals. The intention of the measurements is to record neural activity.

No thought information recorded? Once again you are sadly mistaken. To claim that the data does not contain "useful data" simply demonstrates your limited knowledge of the field. Your statements about low frequency hum are again evidence of your limited understanding. Your comments on feedback responses are as you point out not applicable.

You might want to look into journals such as "Computational Neuroscience" or "Brain and Language" or better yet read about cognitive electrophysiology. Or check out "Brain Signal Analysis" from the MIT Press.

From http://www.lce.hut.fi/research/mm/sbsa/
See figure 3 which says that
Right index finger lifting produces activation contralaterally on the left hemisphere somatomotor hand areas (plotted on inflated brain surface).


That's an example of recording information and working it back to an action. This is not a bio-feedback or control process. This is a one way mapping from a brain signal to the brain.

From http://www.eng.odu.edu/visionlab/research/brain.php
Brain signal analysis for identification of emotional states of mind
Using EEGs to recognize human intentions or thoughts opens new field of study in brain computer interaction.


Does that explain the science of thoughts discerned in brain waves to ya?
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby ciscop » 10 Mar 2010, 13:39

Kevin Kane wrote:Why? Because I use satire and write satire and have a sense of humor? If a reader doesn't like it, read something else.


nah.. is just your satire isnt witty and your comedy isnt funny
maybe a dance with Maria Juana could help you improve your writing
right now is kind of D-

comedy isnt for everybody :D
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 10 Mar 2010, 13:42

For an alien civilization to find any pattern in the brainwaves (um .. *toke* .. yeah), it would require a reference database of (human) brain signal inferences to compare it to. Something we don't have ourselves. But consider the variables .. where the sensors were placed, the shape of the subject's head, recording equipment, resolution quality, etc. all color or distort the information.

An hour's worth of humming noise without any meaning or message is all the data will ever be.

If the alien civilization wanted to understand the data, they would need a human brain to study. Which is an invitation for alien invaders to harvest humans for medical study like lab rats ... or to eat for lunch. I will blameCarl Sagan if this happens:


Your suggestion that a reference is required may not be true. Do you have any evidence for that?
Measurements are prone to error - well known issue. Your conclusion of meaningless is a conjecture you make without evidence. The claim that a human brain is needed is a conjecture for which you supply no evidence.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby ciscop » 10 Mar 2010, 15:17

never been much of a space aficionado...
i´ll let this one pass

i am not skeptical about life in another planets, i wish there was althought the conditions of it happening again are minimal.
i am just skeptical about those ufos being aliens ..
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 17:37

1. Can it be confirmed that Nostradamus read the Victor Zammit critique of Carl Sagan? If so, what was so kooky about it?

2. Can it also be confirmed that Nostradamus is the person who reported my original Sagan thread to be locked, because he saw a graphic image from the movie 'Total Recall' and thought it was real? (It's not, it's what Hollywood calls a "special effect")

3. Can it be confirmed that Nostradamus has never seen the classic 80's sci-fi film Total Recall based on a novel by Phillip K Dick?

4. If by chance, Nostradamus did see the movie Total Recall, did he:

A) Think it was a Documentary.
B) Think he was actually on the planet Mars.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 17:46

Nostradamus wrote:
Does that explain the science of thoughts discerned in brain waves to ya?


It contains some information about mental states ... IF .. one has a reference. A database, or a real human brain to compare it to. Such a reference is not to be found on the golden record. If you can show me where this database is on the Voyager, please do so.

It certainly doesn't allow for the "decryption" of thoughts and never will. Scientists have tried, are trying, and are concluding it's not possible. Keep up with the research.

Nostradamus wrote:
Your suggestion that a reference is required may not be true.


Based on what logic? Do you have any evidence to make such a claim?
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 19:02

New study: Chronic Pot smokers (such as Carl Sagan) are more susceptible to psychosis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194820

The problem with picking out actual thoughts is that the brain is processing so much information, in many different ways, each different for each person. So much of the information and processes are individual and subjective that an all purpose database would be impossible.

The uncertainty principle. At levels of activity of individual neurons, the ability to actually observe what they are doing alters them. And the act of recording, interacting with, and observing brain fuctions with technology must also be calculated.

Hey, remember that vacation you had to Mars with your blonde wife .. in the future? Was it real .. or was it Rekall?

Image
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 21:22

Take a look at this:

http://pinktentacle.com/2008/12/scienti ... rom-brain/

It's fantastic, until you realize how much training is required to obtain the data. Staring at a high contrast black and white image for 12 seconds to register the information. Now imagine how it would be necessary to record every possible experience to produce a general reference. Tasting an apple for 12 seconds. Tasting a strawberry for 12 seconds. Tasting a banana for 12 seconds. Looking at a cloud for 12 seconds. Looking at the sunrise for 12 seconds. Thinking about triangles for 12 seconds. Calculating 12x12 for 12 seconds. Remembering Grandma for 12 seconds. The list is endless. The reference database would be huge. False interpretations would be inevitable.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 10 Mar 2010, 21:30

Kevin said
There is no 'thought information' encoded in the brainwaves

Kevin you made it abundantly clear that there is no thought information. You also appeared to make a contradictory statement, but you chose not to make any clarifying statements.

It certainly doesn't allow for the "decryption" of thoughts and never will. Scientists have tried, are trying, and are concluding it's not possible. Keep up with the research.

You also made another unsubstantiated statement. You gave no references. In fact, you have provided nothing but guesses here. I on the other hand have shown these guesses to be wrong. I gave two examples of research that extracts thoughts from brain waves. So it appears that you are unaware of the state of research, although you have mentioned some feedback devices.

It contains some information about mental states ... IF .. one has a reference. A database, or a real human brain to compare it to. Such a reference is not to be found on the golden record. If you can show me where this database is on the Voyager, please do so.

Again you claim the need for a reference. You make this a mandatory issue. You have no evidence at all that this is a requirement.

You might want to read the following post. It discusses a logical fallacy called arguing from incredulity. Your arguments here basically stem from your inability to comprehend what is happening and the science behind it. Just because you are unaware of facts, doesn't mean others are unaware. Just because you think this is impossible or can't understand any of the math doesn't mean others do not. Just because you have not or no one else on the planet has not conceived of a solution does not mean it cannot be done.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27&p=36&hilit=incredulity#p36

The post does suggest that someone that uses the argument of incredulity is a pseudoskeptic. I'm not so sure on that. I think it shows where someone is on the cusp of a decision: learn something interesting, or decide to not learn and become a pseudoskeptic.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Nostradamus » 10 Mar 2010, 21:39

Your link to this article is a great link Kevin; it shows a good example of thoughts being extracted from a noninvasive brain scan. This is not electrophysiological in nature of course. It should also be pointed out that this device, the fMRI, was not available when the Voyagers were launched.

Again arguing for the need for a database is an argument from incredulity.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 23:12

By 'thought information' I mean what Ann Druyan was talking about. Specific information, memories, ideas, recollections, etc. Context is important in discussions. You can't go wily-nily taking things out of context because of some attention deficit disorder or something.

I would think reference data would be essential to understanding a process that is .. alien. For some squid creature from Orion who may not have anything like a human brain. An hours worth of low frequency noise .. should that mean anything to anyone? A record full of Earth music .. followed by alpha waves. Similarities? Oh, it must be some type of music. Or maybe it's just an artifact of human technology of the time.

Should the aliens also be trying to "decrypt" the audio music section for deeply embedded brain coding? What level of scrutiny should they place on various levels of information?

We provided information on how to play the music .. but didn't provide information on how to decrypt brainwaves. It would indicate that the brainwave information is at the same level of scrutiny as the music .. just audio information. How do you decrypt something without a key? Some sort of reference.

And who knows, maybe alpha waves are dangerous to such a creature. Is Carl Sagan trying to kill the space creatures he loves so much with his wife's alpha waves?
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: Locked Sagan Thread

Postby Kevin Kane » 10 Mar 2010, 23:38

Nostradamus wrote:Your link to this article is a great link Kevin; it shows a good example of thoughts being extracted from a noninvasive brain scan. This is not electrophysiological in nature of course. It should also be pointed out that this device, the fMRI, was not available when the Voyagers were launched.


It's not entirely non-invasive. On the level of general information, it's relatively non-invasive, but at the level of the very small, it may have an effect. And it's not a measure of direct neural activity, but of blood flow. Other scanning methods use x-rays, gamma rays, radioactive tracers .. to measure blood flow or tracer absorption.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

PreviousNext

Return to PseudoSkeptic Fallacies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest