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what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Discuss PseudoSkeptics and their Fallacies. Share strategies for debating them.

Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby ProfWag » 27 Jan 2010, 06:25

NinjaPuppy wrote:
I have never heard a thing about LSD use or mentally ill people being the sole target of these witch claims. It was religion that got the ball rolling and politics that ended the situation.

Here ya' go:
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm
(If you're unfamiliar with "ergot," you may want to look that term up first.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby NinjaPuppy » 27 Jan 2010, 06:31

I'm fully aware of what it is and of the story in your link. Yes, the three little girls in Salem may very well have been under the effects of ergot but that doesn't explain the actions of the judges and other officials involved.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby Kevin Kane » 27 Jan 2010, 06:43

ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:
Hypatia of Alexandria was acussed of being a witch, of magical practice. With that, she was officially condemned by the church (and state).

Too bad there wasn't a skeptic around to stop that condemnation.



A heretic is anyone who chooses to believe something different than the established truth. The charge of heresy often includes false charges of satanism, magic, witchcraft, sex orgies and other slanders.

When the christian church became the official religion of Rome, a process that began with the Nicean Council authorizing what is "True", what to believe, they used their state power to destroy any and everyone who had a different belief or criticized the church, by any means possible. The heretic was often killed by authorities. That's the origin of the witch-hunting tradition. A social exercise of authority, of expert opinion, for defending the established truth.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby ciscop » 27 Jan 2010, 09:06

Kevin Kane wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:
Hypatia of Alexandria was acussed of being a witch, of magical practice. With that, she was officially condemned by the church (and state).

Too bad there wasn't a skeptic around to stop that condemnation.



A heretic is anyone who chooses to believe something different than the established truth. The charge of heresy often includes false charges of satanism, magic, witchcraft, sex orgies and other slanders.

When the christian church became the official religion of Rome, a process that began with the Nicean Council authorizing what is "True", what to believe, they used their state power to destroy any and everyone who had a different belief or criticized the church, by any means possible. The heretic was often killed by authorities. That's the origin of the witch-hunting tradition. A social exercise of authority, of expert opinion, for defending the established truth.


and the skeptics are the ones OUT OF that one
since we dont believe in invisible friends (gods), religions, witches and stupidities like that.
we live in a natural, material and awesome world called reality
which you have never heard of

do you believe in fairies? go for it!
do you believe in spreading stupidity and lies on internet forums? go for it!
but you might bump into a skeptic like me that will tell you... it isnt so :-D
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby Kevin Kane » 27 Jan 2010, 09:39

Ciscop, whatever it is .. some sort of spambot who can't prove that it's human .. is a perfect example of the type of skeptic we've seen many times.

There are remarkably few places to go online where those who want to discuss their paranormal experiences or alternate "heretical" beliefs and practices, seriously and thoughtfully, can go. And the few places that do exists, are over run by abusive skeptics who want to put them down or have something to prove. There's plenty of places where skeptics can go and circle jerk their half-assed theories, but they always need to hunt down, mock and insult those who are different than them. Skeptics are some sick puppies, and it needs to be said.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby ProfWag » 27 Jan 2010, 20:10

Kevin Kane wrote:Ciscop, whatever it is .. some sort of spambot who can't prove that it's human .. is a perfect example of the type of skeptic we've seen many times.

There are remarkably few places to go online where those who want to discuss their paranormal experiences or alternate "heretical" beliefs and practices, seriously and thoughtfully, can go. And the few places that do exists, are over run by abusive skeptics who want to put them down or have something to prove. There's plenty of places where skeptics can go and circle jerk their half-assed theories, but they always need to hunt down, mock and insult those who are different than them. Skeptics are some sick puppies, and it needs to be said.

You can go to the thread "Share your paranormal experiences" in this forum to discuss your experiences. We skeptics aren't allowed to invoke our thoughts on other possibilities there.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby Kevin Kane » 28 Jan 2010, 01:26

Hypatia was a heretic, a non-conformist, a free-thinker. A pagan, a neoplatonist philosopher, and the first female scientist of reknown, and a good one at that. Her best attributed quote is:

"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all."


If skeptics believe that paranormalists and alternative therapists are "thinking wrongly", at least we are thinking.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby ProfWag » 28 Jan 2010, 02:46

Kevin Kane wrote:Hypatia was a heretic, a non-conformist, a free-thinker. A pagan, a neoplatonist philosopher, and the first female scientist of reknown, and a good one at that. Her best attributed quote is:

"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all."


If skeptics believe that paranormalists and alternative therapists are "thinking wrongly", at least we are thinking.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure how to respond to this without breaking the rules of the board, so maybe it best I don't.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby stevetrueblue » 14 Apr 2010, 17:19

Randi finally outs himself on his own website JREF




Almost simultaneuosly Christopher Hitchins owns up to Homosoexual practices.

This could be the death of The New Atheism.

Randi in his outing speech blames holy books and "intolerant society" for his lifelong concealed grief and resultant anger. It also explains his war against religions. With the two leading skeptics confessing to their likely dishonest motivations we only need wait for Dawkins to fess up. Its likely some of Randis followers, miltant atheists are also grief stricken angry latent gays.
It would explain much of their irrational anger. One militant atheist has already been caught viewing GAY PORN on Youtube. HONEST. There is a video.... of the discovery.......

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/whos-got-next.html
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby stevetrueblue » 14 Apr 2010, 19:20

Randi Outs himself as a GAY from his own website.



Randi reveals in his outing statement a lifetime of deception and anger toward "intolerant society" and its "holy books"

Complaining about society intolerance, while being extremely intolerant toward religions, himself.
It certainly suggests a motivation for much of his irrational attacks on Religions.
Christopher Hitchins another world famour atheist has just confessed to homosexual practices.
So the top echelon of miltant atheists have always been closet gays. Food for thought.
So thats one possibiilty for what drives SOME pseudoskeptics.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/whos-got-next.html
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby Nostradamus » 14 Apr 2010, 22:25

So the top echelon of miltant atheists have always been closet gays.


There is an old saying in math (it's a math joke)
Once is an instance
Twice is a coincidence
Three times its a pattern
Four times it's a theorem
Five times it's proved

So you're up to the coincidence level in this joke.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby Craig Browning » 15 Apr 2010, 22:27

Nostradamus if you are referring to the RANDI COMES OUT SPAM... I'm all for outing our friend at this point... too much immaturity and I kind of like the guy, but enough is enough!
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby jakesteele » 05 May 2010, 08:12

In my opinion here's the true underlying cause of the aggressive, attacking nature of a debunker.

Closure (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Cognitive closure (psychology))
Jump to: navigation, search

Closure is a popular psychology term. It refers to a conclusion to a traumatic event or experience in a person's life. The term became popular in the 1990s due to its use in the popular media. The term cognitive closure has been defined as to "a desire for definite knowledge on some issue and the eschewal of confusion and ambiguity."[1] Need for closure is a phrase used by psychologists to describe an individual’s desire for a firm solution as opposed to enduring ambiguity.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)
o 1.1 Research
* 2 Collective psychology
* 3 References
* 4 External links

[edit] Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)

The need for closure varies across individuals, situations, and cultures. A person with a high need for closure prefers order and predictability and is decisive and close minded. This person also feels discomfort from ambiguity.[2] Someone rating low on need for closure will express more ideational fluidity and emit more creative acts.[3]

The Need for Closure Scale (NFCS) was developed by Arie Kruglanski, Donna Webster, and Adena Klem in 1993. Items on the scale include statements such as “I think that having clear rules and order at work is essential to success.” and “I do not like situations that are uncertain”. Items such as “Even after I’ve made up my mind about something, I am always eager to consider a different opinion.” and “I like to have friends who are unpredictable” are reversed scored.[4] This scale is composed of 42 items and has been used in numerous research studies and has been translated into multiple languages. In 2007, Roets and Van Hiel revised the scale to resolve the psychometric problems and obtain a stable, one-dimensional scale.[5]

The Need for Closure Scale exhibits low to moderate association with the following: “authoritarianism, intolerance of ambiguity, dogmatism, need for cognition, cognitive complexity, impulsivity, need for structure, and fear of invalidity, while retaining considerable distinctiveness from those various constructs”.[6]. It does not appear to be related with the intelligence level nor social desirability concerns.

It is a very fundamentalist mindset that experiences Existential pain at the uncertain and ambiguous nature of Life, the Universe and Everything.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby really? » 05 May 2010, 20:26

jakesteele wrote:In my opinion here's the true underlying cause of the aggressive, attacking nature of a debunker.

Closure (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Cognitive closure (psychology))
Jump to: navigation, search

Closure is a popular psychology term. It refers to a conclusion to a traumatic event or experience in a person's life. The term became popular in the 1990s due to its use in the popular media. The term cognitive closure has been defined as to "a desire for definite knowledge on some issue and the eschewal of confusion and ambiguity."[1] Need for closure is a phrase used by psychologists to describe an individual’s desire for a firm solution as opposed to enduring ambiguity.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)
o 1.1 Research
* 2 Collective psychology
* 3 References
* 4 External links

[edit] Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)

The need for closure varies across individuals, situations, and cultures. A person with a high need for closure prefers order and predictability and is decisive and close minded. This person also feels discomfort from ambiguity.[2] Someone rating low on need for closure will express more ideational fluidity and emit more creative acts.[3]

The Need for Closure Scale (NFCS) was developed by Arie Kruglanski, Donna Webster, and Adena Klem in 1993. Items on the scale include statements such as “I think that having clear rules and order at work is essential to success.” and “I do not like situations that are uncertain”. Items such as “Even after I’ve made up my mind about something, I am always eager to consider a different opinion.” and “I like to have friends who are unpredictable” are reversed scored.[4] This scale is composed of 42 items and has been used in numerous research studies and has been translated into multiple languages. In 2007, Roets and Van Hiel revised the scale to resolve the psychometric problems and obtain a stable, one-dimensional scale.[5]

The Need for Closure Scale exhibits low to moderate association with the following: “authoritarianism, intolerance of ambiguity, dogmatism, need for cognition, cognitive complexity, impulsivity, need for structure, and fear of invalidity, while retaining considerable distinctiveness from those various constructs”.[6]. It does not appear to be related with the intelligence level nor social desirability concerns.

It is a very fundamentalist mindset that experiences Existential pain at the uncertain and ambiguous nature of Life, the Universe and Everything.


I'll counter that argument of your's that this is the sole reason that drives the skeptical community. It actually applies heavily to the New Age community. They have a need for everything to have a reason as explained by one of your own.
Bridging the Chasm between Two Cultures
Karla McLaren
A former leader in the New Age culture—author of nine titles on auras, chakras, “energy,” and so on


I've been studying the conflict between the skeptical community and the metaphysical/new age community for a few decades now, and I think I've finally discovered the central issue that makes communication so difficult. It is not merely, as many surmise, a conflict between fact-based viewpoints and faith-based viewpoints. Nor is it simply a conflict between rationality and credulity. No, it’s a full-on clash of cultures that makes real communication improbable at best.
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/bridging_ ... _cultures/

From my own involvement with folks like you also over decades Karla is right every occurence has meaning. Everything has an explanation: a teacup falling off a shelf is evidence of a ghost. Two people serendipitously running into each other after many years of separation is significant. It goes on and on. Ambiguity is not very well tolerated by the New Age community. Everything has an answer. You can contrast that with the skeptical community where a thing without an answer is acknowledge as such. We look for answers too, but we don't make up answers.
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Re: what exactly drives the skeptical ??

Postby jakesteele » 07 May 2010, 03:20

really? wrote:
jakesteele wrote:In my opinion here's the true underlying cause of the aggressive, attacking nature of a debunker.

Closure (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Cognitive closure (psychology))
Jump to: navigation, search

Closure is a popular psychology term. It refers to a conclusion to a traumatic event or experience in a person's life. The term became popular in the 1990s due to its use in the popular media. The term cognitive closure has been defined as to "a desire for definite knowledge on some issue and the eschewal of confusion and ambiguity."[1] Need for closure is a phrase used by psychologists to describe an individual’s desire for a firm solution as opposed to enduring ambiguity.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)
o 1.1 Research
* 2 Collective psychology
* 3 References
* 4 External links

[edit] Need For Closure Scale (NFCS)

The need for closure varies across individuals, situations, and cultures. A person with a high need for closure prefers order and predictability and is decisive and close minded. This person also feels discomfort from ambiguity.[2] Someone rating low on need for closure will express more ideational fluidity and emit more creative acts.[3]


The Need for Closure Scale (NFCS) was developed by Arie Kruglanski, Donna Webster, and Adena Klem in 1993. Items on the scale include statements such as “I think that having clear rules and order at work is essential to success.” and “I do not like situations that are uncertain”. Items such as “Even after I’ve made up my mind about something, I am always eager to consider a different opinion.” and “I like to have friends who are unpredictable” are reversed scored.[4] This scale is composed of 42 items and has been used in numerous research studies and has been translated into multiple languages. In 2007, Roets and Van Hiel revised the scale to resolve the psychometric problems and obtain a stable, one-dimensional scale.[5]

The Need for Closure Scale exhibits low to moderate association with the following: “authoritarianism, intolerance of ambiguity, dogmatism, need for cognition, cognitive complexity, impulsivity, need for structure, and fear of invalidity, while retaining considerable distinctiveness from those various constructs”.[6]. It does not appear to be related with the intelligence level nor social desirability concerns.

It is a very fundamentalist mindset that experiences Existential pain at the uncertain and ambiguous nature of Life, the Universe and Everything.


I'll counter that argument of your's that this is the sole reason that drives the skeptical community. [i]It actually applies heavily to the New Age community. They have a need for everything to have a reason as explained by one of your own.
[/i]
You're right, it does. It applies to all people individually and collectively. This is where Gods come from. Imagine stone age man during a thunder/lightning storm terrified of the "jagged spears" and the "thunderous roars". A stone ager wouldn't have a clue so he would make up something to explain it. Conspiracy people do the same thing with modern events. Man has to have an explanation for everything. Even a bad answer is better than no answer.


From my own involvement with folks like you also over decades Karla is right every occurence has meaning. Everything has an explanation: a teacup falling off a shelf is evidence of a ghost. Two people serendipitously running into each other after many years of separation is significant. It goes on and on. Ambiguity is not very well tolerated by the New Age community. Everything has an answer. You can contrast that with the skeptical community where a thing without an answer is acknowledge as such. We look for answers too, but we don't make up answers.


Skeptics can accept 'safe' things like whether string theory is the real deal or not. But string theory is a type of explanation for a very perplexing and disturbing question: How? Why? or is there a how and a why? The concept of God? There isn't one; that is an explanation that gives comfort and succor to the skeptic/atheist. Most skeptics have a reductionist, materialistic, mechanical answer to life, the universe and everything; Fundamental Materialism A skeptic is no different than anyone else in this regard. They need answers and explanations, so they get them.

The whole point of the NFC scale is that some people have a deeper need than others and thus tend to gravitate toward the black and white/all or nothing end of the scale; hence, a fundamentalist world view.
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