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evidence - a question for skeptics

Discuss PseudoSkeptics and their Fallacies. Share strategies for debating them.

Re: evidence - a question for skeptics

Postby ProfWag » 23 Oct 2009, 23:32

Brett, are you still pretty active in ghost investigating?
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Re: evidence - a question for skeptics

Postby ciscop » 24 Oct 2009, 00:17

brett wrote:i will have to paint my cat white first NP :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: - prof , yes why not ?? - lets be fair whilst the proof of existence of ghosts would shake the fundamental beliefs of many to the core , as would proof of the existence of other life forms in the cosmos , it would also ultimately strengthen belief in god ( imo ) and most religions preach some sort of afterlife do they not ??

as to peace or war , well lets again be fair that "religion" has probably caused quite a few wars , and an awful lot of suffering over the centuries , and would more proof of the possibility that there IS some form of ultimate force ( lets call it god for the sake of argument ) in the universe change that ?? - chances are ,knowing mankind that all it would do is make fundamentalist religious views more prevalent and there for justify more extreme action in the name of any particular god , BUT this aside , can we also just stick our heads in the sand and NOT ask the question about the possibility of some form of continuance ?? , I say not , as taking in the bigger picture , such proof would give reassurance and comfort to all who have lost loved ones , and maybe actually make people stop and think a bit more about their actions whilst mortal .

but this theorising about the consequences of finding that proof is taking this away from my original question ( another tactic i have come across to diffuse discussion of awkward questions ) - OK so you say truthfully you don't know what you would consider proof - but would accept peer reviewed scientific journal reports , yet science does not actively investigate the subject or in many cases even acknowledge it , ( except to debunk in many cases ) , which is odd considering that a goodly percentage of the worlds population do believe there is or may be something more than the old 3 score years and 10 , and of course any one ( on the whole ) who believes in the preachings of most religions ,and considers what is in the various religious texts as "real " by default also believe in the promise of eternal life , or some sort of heaven ,nirvana, or whatever

and also if we look at the whole worlds population and the percentage of "scientists" in that population , really why are we so swayed by the pronouncements of the few ?? and peer review is only scientists approving of what other scientists think and write - which is as self defeating as believers only approving of what other believers write or conversely skeptics only approving of what other skeptics write - it is merely taking a view point and only backing those who agree with our chosen viewpoint - you and i have both seen this happen enough times , at least here we can examine and critique those viewpoints as i am sure you will mine , but that's what discussion is about ;)

so OK lets assume that a scientist ( name your poison ) had an experience where a "ghost " manifested to him or her , do you seriously think they would write it up ?? - yea right , they would not because on the whole "science " is ruled by motive , and that motive is money , grants ,research funding etc etc ( and we must not forget the profit that research produces , again i ask ,do you think that science would be so well funded if there was no money to be made from it ?? , of course it would not , and that's why "proper" research into the paranormal is not funded , there's no money in it , oh yea there's money in the BS that SURROUNDS the subject , the "stars" and the book writers etc , but actual solid unbiased , genuine research - noooooooooooooo , and until someone comes up with a way to make it pay ,neither will there be :roll:

so that's pretty much ruled out science as the ultimate arbiter of proof , but what if YOU saw what i have described as a ghost ?? - would THAT convince you ?? - you say there is no logic in it , can you honestly say to me you apply logic to and in everything you do ?? just because something is "illogical" by the perceived wisdom of others , does that mean it is ?? - i have seen as you must have, things that if one went strictly by the tenets of supposed "logic" should not have been possible , YET they have happened - so where does that leave us ??

which then brings us back to "faith" - surly total reliance on the tenants and pronouncements of "science " is a form of "faith" after all can you personally dispute or disprove what scientists are pronouncing about quantum physics for instance ?? - probably not any more than I or anyone else here can , as we are not part of the club and can easily be dismissed as mistaken , uneducated ,plain wrong , or whatever by those with vested interest in maintaining position and the "status quo " and if we continue with QP as an example , is not most of that not speculation ( and a lot of incomprehensible math ) with little actual PROOF of what they are proclaiming as ( in some areas ) fact ?? ( and making a nice earner writing long winded books about it )

so yea - sorry if you feel you have been put on the spot here prof - at the end of the day you have answered truthfully and for that I do respect your stance :D

i recon at the end of the day it boils down to the fact that the ONLY way any skeptic is ever GOING to be convinced is when /if they actually encounter said ghost for them selves and then have to either reevaluate their standpoint - or just carry on denighing what has happened to them , and that i believe is where we start throwing the word "delusion " around ..........................................

right can of worms this ain't it ?? :lol: :lol:


i see no reason in scientists investigating this kind of claims just because people like to believe in them
i think i remember that NASA used their satelites to look for Nessie and they didnt found anything... did that stoped cryptozoologists from believing in their beloved monster?... nah
the same will happen to ghosts
there is also a psychologist study explaining the tunnel vision when you have a Near Death experience.. but does people care about the scientific approach?.. nah... for heavens sake!.. Clarence Clemons from th E Street band went to Howard Stern yesterday and claimed to have a NDE and hear voices.. people really dont want those studies.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: evidence - a question for skeptics

Postby brett » 24 Oct 2009, 00:51

ProfWag wrote:Brett, are you still pretty active in ghost investigating?


well sadly these days because of both my disabilities AND my "lets do this job properly attitude " - i dont get to do much :roll: - local groups dont want to know me because i give them hell over their investigation techniques ( read all the BS ) and people generally don't want "proper" investigation , just a one night "shit and giggles" type investigation :roll: :roll:

+ the bubble has sort of burst in the UK , oh sure the pay to play groups and "experts " are still active - but i have noted a lot of former groups either gone or their sites are not updated

so i am sort of holding my self in reserve for the real case , the one with multiple manifestations , poltergeists, and all the bells and whistles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

in the mean time prof - i am researching - reading and following up some historical stuff that is of interest to me - oh and of course annoying people on forums :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

hope that answers your question
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Re: evidence - a question for skeptics

Postby brett » 24 Oct 2009, 01:05

do you have a link to that study please csicop ?? - i would like to read the latest ( if of course its not one of those pay to read it type studies ) and actually i am glad you brought this up , we are told that science has the answers and we should follow the scientific method and read research papers - then what do they do ?? - want to charge us for the privilege - thus restricting and in many ways discriminating against those who do not have the wherewithal to do so , after all like film reviews , abstracts can be cracked up to sound brilliant , only when you see the film do you say "well that was a waste of money "

and i am sure that you would not argue that we believers , should not look at ALL the available data and thinking on the subject , eh ?? ( oh of course WE are not clever enough to understand it are we ?? )

i mean what have the people writing the papers got to protect ?? - oh sorry i forgot - its all about commercial exploitation and money again

or are they frightened that if some of us got to read them we may have the temerity to disagree with their findings and theories ?? ;)
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Re: evidence - a question for skeptics

Postby ProfWag » 24 Oct 2009, 01:42

brett wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Brett, are you still pretty active in ghost investigating?


well sadly these days because of both my disabilities AND my "lets do this job properly attitude " - i dont get to do much :roll: - local groups dont want to know me because i give them hell over their investigation techniques ( read all the BS ) and people generally don't want "proper" investigation , just a one night "shit and giggles" type investigation :roll: :roll:

+ the bubble has sort of burst in the UK , oh sure the pay to play groups and "experts " are still active - but i have noted a lot of former groups either gone or their sites are not updated

so i am sort of holding my self in reserve for the real case , the one with multiple manifestations , poltergeists, and all the bells and whistles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

in the mean time prof - i am researching - reading and following up some historical stuff that is of interest to me - oh and of course annoying people on forums :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

hope that answers your question


Yes, that answers it. I'm sorry you aren't able to get out and investigate. They could sure use more people searching for the real answers. I lived up in Suffolk back 20 some-odd years ago and ghost stories were all the rage, but little to no investigating at that time (that I saw, anyway...)
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