View Active Topics          View Your Posts          Latest 100 Topics          Switch to Mobile

Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Discuss Philosophical or Psychological subjects and topics.

Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Jan 2012, 03:38

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
Scepcop
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3258
Joined: 16 May 2009, 07:29

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Arouet » 27 Jan 2012, 04:26

How nice do you think it would be to live in a society without any moral norms?
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Jan 2012, 04:30

Arouet wrote:How nice do you think it would be to live in a society without any moral norms?


I'm not saying that a society without morals is better. Just that morality is more of a "survival strategy" for a species, rather than some "divine law" that applies to all creation, don't you think?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
Scepcop
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3258
Joined: 16 May 2009, 07:29

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Jan 2012, 04:50

Here is my favorite aware freethinker Darryl Sloan on "defining good and evil without God".

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
Scepcop
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3258
Joined: 16 May 2009, 07:29

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Jan 2012, 04:52

Here is my favorite aware freethinker Darryl Sloan on "defining good and evil without God".

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
Scepcop
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3258
Joined: 16 May 2009, 07:29

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Arouet » 27 Jan 2012, 05:36

Scepcop wrote:I'm not saying that a society without morals is better. Just that morality is more of a "survival strategy" for a species, rather than some "divine law" that applies to all creation, don't you think?


Yes
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby plodsie » 27 Jan 2012, 21:08

We have a conscience tough that we sometimes choose to ignore depending on our own needs. For example slaughtering animals for food is something I couldn't see myself doing unless I really needed to. That wouldn't stop me feeling bad about it though. I think we all have a shared conscience but others are better at ignoring it than others.
User avatar
plodsie
 
Posts: 22
Joined: 13 Jan 2012, 19:52
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Craig Browning » 28 Jan 2012, 02:37

plodsie wrote:We have a conscience tough that we sometimes choose to ignore depending on our own needs. For example slaughtering animals for food is something I couldn't see myself doing unless I really needed to. That wouldn't stop me feeling bad about it though. I think we all have a shared conscience but others are better at ignoring it than others.


The taking of life, any life, is the sort of thing that impacts us. When it comes to hunting and fishing our ancestors would have remorse and give thanks to both, "the gods" as well as the soul of that critter that was killed; they would honor that animal in much the same way they would honor & remember their own dead.

Nature does have a "morality" to it; you will find that most wild animals only kill out of necessity, just as we do -- to eat and survive. Many a time you can find lions laying in a filed full of Gazelles or whatever other "snacks" they're known to consume. Thing is, they aren't hungry and so there is no threat. This is why having such exotics as pets tends to work; keep them fed and happy and you won't be on their menu. . . most of the time.

I used to have a pet wolf. . . technically she was 93% wolf with 7% Malamute but at that level of breeding it really doesn't matter, she was lupine not K-9. I bring this up because she is deemed "safe" compared to those hybrids that have a higher percentage of dog in their genes; Dogs will attack and kill or maim in the name of "fun" while wolves only kill for the sake of defense and the need for food. The only exception is when one goes rogue; comes down with a mental illness or infection that alters its normal behavior. In the wild wolves have been credited for saving many lives, especially those of children but in some instances, adult huntsmen as well. They simply aren't the violent and vicious critter legend and ranchers make them out to be.

Morality within the wild can be seen when you know what to look for and it is echoed within human beings. Sadly, humans are also susceptible to carnal influences that more or less fall under the famed 7-Deadly Sin list; just look at the Gluttony within the U.S. culture, how we Envy those that have "more" than we have, how we Lust over people and things of all sorts, how our Lethargy and Slothfulness prevents us from EARNING those things we Covet and in turn slowly destroy us. The list is extensive but most of it breaks down to our personal loss of morality/integrity as both, individuals as well as a society. It likewise includes our lack of respect and inability (unwillingness) to honor and respect -- to be grateful for our food, clothing, shelter, health, life, etc.

It may sound overly simplistic but just the ritual of saying "thank you" before we eat, before we go to sleep at night and when we awake -- it's powerful stuff! Especially in how it imprints itself on our own psyche and thus, how we view life. ;)
User avatar
Craig Browning
 
Posts: 1526
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 05:20
Location: Northampton, MA

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Scepcop » 01 Feb 2012, 17:36

Some more points to consider:

God and Mother Nature have no morals either - about letting animals, insects and plants die every second, or allowing innocent people to suffer, or allowing good/innocent people to die young and evil people to thrive and prosper either. So there does not seem to be any objective "divine moral code" that governs all of creation. Morality is something that humans create, not some universal divine law that governs the universe.

Sometimes you gotta do what's best for you. As already explained, survival and self-preservation often takes precedent over "morally correct choices". It's not right or wrong; it's just reality. No one likes to admit that publicly, but it's true. There is no perfect world in which the best choices are always the morally correct ones.

I know that doesn't sound good. But you have to be realistic here. No one (at least not most people) can always make the morally correct choice in every decision and action. No one is a saint. But we are all hypocrites in that we hold others to the standards of a saint which we ourselves do not live up to. Everyone (at least most) has skeletons in the closet that would bring moral condemnation from others if exposed out in the open.

As the saying goes: "People do not like to do what's right. They like to TELL others to do what's right."

For example, let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose Bill Gates accidentally deposited $500,000 into your bank account, and he never noticed it. Now, would you contact him and tell him about it, or would you think: "$500k to him is nothing. It's just pocket change to him. He'll never notice or care that he's missing that amount. I need it A LOT MORE than he does." Of course, publicly you might say that you'd report it because it's the "right and morally correct choice". But in REALITY and PRIVATELY, you KNOW you would probably keep it under the rationale and excuse: "I need this money more than he does. And besides, it was his mistake, not mine." Most people would probably do that, and never tell anyone about it of course. They would never post about it on a forum and try to debate the "morality" of it with others either, because they know that everyone would condemn them. Most of you KNOW that YOU WOULD just keep it, because in this scenario, your "survival instinct" would override your "moral instinct". The benefits and gains would overshadow the "moral ethics" (which bring you nothing), especially if you were badly in need of money. So stop pretending that you are all saints who hold other people to the standard of a saint. You are hypocrites and you know it!

Besides, most of you are also hypocrites for condoning the slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs, (and eating them) while condemning the slaughter of dogs and cats. And you are hypocrites for condoning hunters who shoot ducks and deer. Who are you to decide which life of which species is sacred and valuable, and which isn't? Should an advanced alien race have a right to eat you for food too? Just because you are human doesn't mean that human life is the most sacred thing in the objective universe. A higher more advanced race than you might think otherwise. There's simply no consistency in your thinking and moral standards.

If killing were morally wrong, then those who kill and eat animals would be punished by karma and universal retribution right away, wouldn't they? Yet many meat eaters live long and healthy lives. Why is that?

If killing were ethically wrong and punishable by karma, then is your immune system guilty of killing all the harmful bacteria that it kills everyday? Should karma punish you and your immune system?

If killing was a sin punishable by karma or God, then how come George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who started the Iraq War and killed over a million people, have gone unpunished by the universe, and are wealthier than ever? How come the US officials who started the Vietnam War lived long and healthy lives? How come Joseph Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler, lived to a ripe old age? Yet, Robert Kennedy, a man with great compassion for others, gets gunned down and dies young? Where is all the karmic retribution or divine justice in that?

If you are a man, every time you ejaculate, you kill thousands of sperm, even during sex. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" come upon you for that? If you are a woman, every time you go through menstruation, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" befall you for that?

So you see, under casual scrutiny, the "moral logic" of most humans falls apart and is shown to be inconsistent, subjective, situational and relative. Human morality is not some "divine law" handed down by God. It is a code of ethics humans created to help ensure the survival and cooperation of our species. The "moral conscience" you have in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty when you do something wrong is not something that God put into you. It's the result of the moral behaviors and beliefs of all your ancestors that have become ingrained into your DNA. It's the same reason why a kitten is born with an expert instinct to catch mice, and a knowing of what it can eat and what it can't. It's the same way animals know that they are supposed to run from predators. God didn't teach them to. It's simply ingrained into their DNA as an instinct from the past behavior of their ancestors.

This is why our survival instinct tends to override our moral instinct. Our need to survive comes first and foremost. It is the root instinct of all life and comes before all other instincts. It also precedes any "moral code" we develop to get along with others. So naturally, when survival and morals come into conflict, we will choose survival. As the saying goes, "One can only have morals if one can afford them."
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
User avatar
Scepcop
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3258
Joined: 16 May 2009, 07:29

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Bucky the Badger » 31 Mar 2012, 11:55

I'm sorry, but are you really saying that just because someone is evil and lives a long and fruitful life, that nature or God does not look down upon them? Do you really think that there is nothing objectively immoral about the slaughter of a human being, that we shouldn't force our moral values on others. I tell you this, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, etc. are getting what they deserve in the afterlife. If you have spent any time browsing the near death experience accounts (which doesn't seem likely) at nderf.org or near-death.com, you understand that what goes around does indeed come around and that God doesn't judge you, you judge yourself. You atone for these sins by going to a lower afterlife realm or reincarnating to correct the unbalanced dharma you have caused. What is this objective moral standard you may ask? Well, in the words of the great Jesus of Nazareth, "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself."
User avatar
Bucky the Badger
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 31 Mar 2012, 09:35

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Craig Browning » 31 Mar 2012, 20:36

Bucky the Badger wrote: What is this objective moral standard you may ask? Well, in the words of the great Jesus of Nazareth, "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself."


While the "Golden Rule" can be found in every major culture and many religious teachings. . . while it is probably the oldest known "Wisdom Teaching" in all matter of time. . . it is the single "commandment" or ideology humankind refuses to abide by -- it's too simple or elementary for most of us to accept and so we have ream upon ream of paper through which man has put words into the mouth of the Gods (and a few Goddesses as well) include the one of current popularity -- Science. We've adopted the policy of loving ourselves but we do so at such a level that there is no room for loving others, let alone some sort of divinity, on equal bases . . . one must feed the old ego after all.

In other words, we have here the reason why so few in each age make that spiritual advancement towards Nirvana (so to speak). It takes life times for most to just catch a glimpse at what's happening and what they are responsible for and why and eons after that realization, before most are ready to graduate to the higher harmonies be being.

We are all born with that spark within that is of the divine, this is what links us all together with all things but most importantly, with the Godhead. This is where that moral essence comes from; that "inner voice" that guides us at the most base and natural manner when it comes to general functioning within society. That light is quite dim in some based on accumulated karma and deliberate acts in previous life-times, of turning one's back on the divine, even exchanging faith with the auspices of current logic ideologies or in service of one's ego -- the voluntary act of becoming a "demon" if we are to consider the oriental concept of such things; a human being that has surrendered its humanity for the sake of carnality and its glories.

We are looking at a very deep issue here, there is no way of clarifying it without digging a deeper pit, because the truth to it all is so simple, so elementary that most every child born knows it innately, even when never exposed to the auspices of religion or general philosophy.
User avatar
Craig Browning
 
Posts: 1526
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 05:20
Location: Northampton, MA

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Arouet » 31 Mar 2012, 20:55

Who says humankind refuses to abide by it? Unless you mean: abide by it perfectly. There is a good reason why the golden rule shows up in every culture: it is plain logic, common sense and self-preservation. Humans are not self sufficient. We live in communities, and we depend on those communities for our survival. We evolved an emotion that favoured that: compassion. You are right: every child instinctively knows it. It is inbred in us. The fact that we don't apply it perfectly doesn't mean that we don't apply it! Probably we apply it most of the time -otherwise we'd just go around hitting people and swearing at everyone all day long. And we'd probably kill each other!
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07

Re: Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

Postby Bucky the Badger » 01 Apr 2012, 05:10

Exactly. What makes humankind superior over the rest of the animals is not just our greater intelligence. We realized, long ago, that it is much easier to cooperate and get along with each other than live by the whole "survival of the fittest" mentality. Exploitation, manipulation, etc. is still, of course, practiced in this world by peoople seeking short term power over long term fulfillment. Such spiritually un-evolved folks will eventually come around and realize that LOVE is the strongest force in the universe.
User avatar
Bucky the Badger
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 31 Mar 2012, 09:35


Return to Philosophy / Psychology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron