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Human Flying

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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 07 Jun 2010, 22:51

I've two questions for you. But first this what's wrong with this photos of levitation ?


It is clearly a trick, he is suspended above the ground by the means of a harness which is attached
to the handle. However, there is something wrong with your intent in pointing this out, in that are
you trying to say that all levitations must be tricks. That is like trying to point out one person that
lies and then generalizing it to everybody. The levitation of the Maglev trains is that a trick or an
actual application of a scientific principle? Is the experiment by the russian scientist, Eugene Podkletnov,
showing a spinning super conductor causes an object placed in its field to levitate, a
trick or the application of a scientific principle?

Similarly, levitation done by the Yogis through psychic means are using scientific principle,
but a science using a completely different ontology to science today, that understands reality
as a mind-stuff.

1. Have you ever thought what yogi's are doing to the fabric of spacetime when they levitate ?


Have you ever thought that this term "space-time" did not in fact exist before Einstein? Before Einstein reality
was thought to be just be fields of force. The variable of "space-time" was only introduced by Einstein to explain
relative frames of reference which the older Newtonian physics did not account account for. It is a theoretical
construct, but you are using term it as if it is a real thing. In quantum physics the term "space-time" is not even
used, because fundamentally there is no space and time, just wavfunctions which only manifest and take physical
form when they are observed.

The Yogis are operating from a level which goes even beyond quantum physics, to mental physics, where they realise
that fundamental or quantum reality is mind-stuff. It responds to the mind. The Yogi can directly play with the principle
of gravity, countering its effect, thereby causing levitation.

2. If levitation occurs, what keeps yogi's from flying off into space ?


Their will.

I feel it's far better to be incredulous than credulous.


You're not really incredulous, because you have beliefs. You believe in
space-time for instance. I am neither credulous or incredulous, I am open
minded researcher, who investigates every possibility, collects data and revise
my paradigm of reality accordingly. I have in a single life time gone
through several paradigm shifts from outright materialist and atheist, to
newage, to secular and rationalist, to spiritual and existentialist, to idealist and theist.
I totally understand what paradigm you are operating from, because I've been there myself,
but I know you will move on from that paradigm eventually when your knowledge of reality
expands. It might be in this lifetime or another, but it will happen eventually.

I hate to preach, but I cannt stop myself out of love for my fellow beings. The sooner
you realise that your current conceptions of reality are actually beliefs and assumptions,
the more your mind will begin to open to other conceptions, and your knowledge will begin
to expand faster. A true skeptic is a seeker of truth and will keep seeking until they have
found the truth.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 07 Jun 2010, 23:32

I just want to point out, because I have a really bad habit
of always giving a reason for whatever I state. It is perhaps
my training as a philosopher and logician. I stated in the previous
post the many assumptions and beliefs you already have. I am going
to point them out.

1. Materialism
You believe that everything is physical matter. How do you know this?
All we can say is that we receive sensory impressions from something
external to us, which is then organized by our minds into a coherent whole
which we then perceive as reality. What we don't actually know is that this
external thing is physical and solid matter.

2. Epiphenomenalism
You believe that mind is just produced by the brain. How do you know this?
All we can say is that the mind and brain are correlated, because both have
the power to affect one another, we cannot say anything about causality.
Moreover, the assumption fails because of the illogicality of a physical stuff
producing a non physical stuff.

3. Realism
You believe that we are in a real world. How do you know this? All we can say
is that we access the external world by means of our consciousness. Thus everything
is predicated on consciousness, it itself is not a predicate. This consciousness
also gives us access to dream worlds. If you accept the waking world as real
because it is external, then the dream world is also real because it is external.
How do you know it isn't?

4. Positivism
You believe in scientific constructs as real things. How do you know this? All
that we can say about scientific constructs is they are theoretical constructs,
explanations of things, not the things themselves. Moreover,they are explanation
of perceptual things, not the things in themselves before perception takes place.
"Space-time" is no more real than "force, electricity and quarks" Moreover, you only
believe in some scientific constructs. You seem to know nothing about constucts in
quantum physics, or string theory which contadict realism and materialism.

In short, taking all those beliefs and assumptions in totality, you believe in a scientific
religion of materialism. In principle, no different to a believer in any other religion. I
hope you can critically evaluate your own beliefs.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ciscop » 07 Jun 2010, 23:46

have you ever seen a guy levitating or you just like to believe it is possible?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 07 Jun 2010, 23:54

ciscop wrote:have you ever seen a guy levitating or you just like to believe it is possible?


It is a reasoned belief that it is possible, based on the thrust of logical argument. However, the ultimate
proof is in the pudding. Logic cannot subtitute for experience. I have had personal validation of others powers
though such as being able to leave the body and travel, and some telepathic communication, as well as precognitive
dreams. I also have met many reliable people who have also had experience of powers, one of them being my own
mother who can see auras. She has never told anybody she could do this, except me. No, she does not offer any
aura-reading services to anybody.

Edit to add: I forgot to mention I have also had some experiences in feeling pranic energy. On myself, and other
very powerful healers have done it to me. The energy was felt very intense.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 00:04

so you do astral travel?
that´s pretty cool
can you do it on command?
or does it only happen a couple of times, like random?

and no it is not a reasoned believe
it is like me saying i believe in fairies because a couple of girls in england saw them
it is not a reasoned believe. we are humans, we have never proved to posses such power.
if nobody has seen those masters perform, then it is just faith and wishful thinking.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Human Flying

Postby really? » 08 Jun 2010, 02:43

Indigo Child wrote:
.


With logic like yours there's no way to win an argument against you. However, your continual demonstration of special pleading suffices well to show the fence sitters how tenuous your position really is
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 04:04

ciscop wrote:so you do astral travel?
that´s pretty cool
can you do it on command?
or does it only happen a couple of times, like random?


No, I cannot do it on command yet. My teacher can, but I cannot.
It takes a few hours to induce it. I have had many which have taken
place spontaneously. Do you have any experience of astral travelling?

and no it is not a reasoned believe
it is like me saying i believe in fairies because a couple of girls in england saw them
it is not a reasoned believe. we are humans, we have never proved to posses such power.
if nobody has seen those masters perform, then it is just faith and wishful thinking.


Nope, it is not based on anybodies testimony, so it is not like believing in in fairies because
some girls in England saw them. It is based on having a working theory of reality and using it
to make predictions. For instance the predictions of general and special relativity were only
later experimentally validated, before that they were just theoretical predictions or reasoned
belief. Likewise, as I have a working theory of reality, in which reality is modelled as a mind-stuff
and not a physical stuff, levitation is one of those predictions because the power of the mind preceding
space and time and gravity. The mind has absolute mastery over the world.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 04:18

really? wrote:
Indigo Child wrote:
.


With logic like yours there's no way to win an argument against you. However, your continual demonstration of special pleading suffices well to show the fence sitters how tenuous your position really is


What do you mean with logic like mine, there is only one logic. All you need to do to "win"
is disprove my arguments and prove yours. However, clearly you cannot, because nothing I
have said is non-factual. This is why I said "all we can say" It is a fact that without consciousness
we would have no access to reality. It is a fact that something physical cannot produce something
non-physical. It is a fact that our reality is a representation constructed in our minds. It is
fact that a scientific theory is is a theoretical explanation of something, not the actual thing itself. More
over a scientific theory is never proven.

The truth is you don't care about facts. You want to believe in your scientific materialistic religion. I
cannot go wrong as long I stick to facts, and you won't be able to argue with me, because they are facts.
If they are not facts you could easily give a counter-example and refute them. The fact that you can't do this
shows the fence sitters how tenuous your position is.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 04:35

hahahaha
being rational is not a reason of faith nor a religion, believing somebody can fly without seeing it it is

and yes i did experience astral travel
that was way back when i was reading one of shirley mcclaine books
althought i do believe it was just a dream and nothing more
(it has happened a few times ever since)
i do enjoy them, i do think they are awesome
but they are dreams
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 06:02

ciscop,

Then you are closer than you think to validating
the existence of spiritual realities and higher dimensions.
In a sense you are right that astral travel is a dream, all
dreams indeed take place in the astral plane and are just as
real as waking experiences taking place in the physical plane.

As it has the characteristic of reality it is possible to have objectivity
in the astral plane. In the same way you you have a body in the waking
plane, you have one in the astral plane and have an objective access to
the astral world, where you can interact with others. This is no less real
than the physical plane.

You can do astral experiments that will give you validation. For instance
you can place in a sealed box some object, such as a randomly selected playing
card and then you can astral travel look at the hidden playing card, and come back
and verify it is indeed the same. A more simpler experiment is to spy on your friends
or family listen to what they are saying in the astral, return to waking and then verify
it. A third type of experiment where you can interact with somebody in the astral plane,
and then later in waking you can confirm the interaction took place.

These experiments have already been done by scientists researching astral travel and
positive results have been found for the reality of astral travel.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 06:39

i will like to take a look at those experiments

well sure i do hope that i am actually doing that
leaving the body and all that
it does feel like a fantastic experience
when you wake up, you feel awesome
but i think thats pretty much because flying is my version of a teenager´s wet dream
i love the idea of flying

and the problem with doing that of the playing card is that i never know when ill have one of those experiences,
it is not like it happens once a month, it happened to me like less than 10 times in the past 10 years
but i guess it is worth the try
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Human Flying

Postby caniswalensis » 08 Jun 2010, 07:01

Indigo Child wrote:You can do astral experiments that will give you validation. For instance
you can place in a sealed box some object, such as a randomly selected playing
card and then you can astral travel look at the hidden playing card, and come back
and verify it is indeed the same. A more simpler experiment is to spy on your friends
or family listen to what they are saying in the astral, return to waking and then verify
it. A third type of experiment where you can interact with somebody in the astral plane,
and then later in waking you can confirm the interaction took place.


Hello IC,

I like what you are saying here, but these experiments all have flaws built into them as they are described. The first is the most sound, but with only 52 cards in a standard deck, there is a relatively good chance of guessing the correct card by luck. After a few trials with a couple hits, it would be easy for someone to convince themselves that they were scoring better than chance. It would require careful record keeping to control for confirmation bias. The other two need to be controled for things like subjective validation. just having people informally discusss the experiment & decide if it suceeded is frought with oppurtunities for error. It would be easy to zero in on a couple key points that make a "hit" seem likely.

I think a better test would be to have a double blinded test where the results were evaluated by an objective third party. To borrow from the card test, have a stranger place a random object of their choosing in a box. It should be a simple object that is easy to describe in objective terms. They do not know why or who is being tested. The box is placed in an agreed upon location known to the traveler, but not accessible to them by normal means. Then the astral traveler works at it until they are satisfied they know the answer. The answer is given to the third party to compare to the object in the box. Only commonly accepted names for the object sould be considered hits. Vagueish answers should be thrwon out. For example, if the object was a red ball, acceptable answers would be "a ball" "a red ball" "a red sphere" or something very specific like that. Answers that would be considered non-hits would be "something red" "Something round" "an object that a child would enjoy" and things like that. They are not specific enough and could be applied to thoushands of common objects. Repeat this trial several times to gather a statistically sound sample of data points. Positive results gathered in such a way would be impressive.

Indigo Child wrote:These experiments have already been done by scientists researching astral travel and
positive results have been found for the reality of astral travel.


I find this statement to be very exciting. I was not aware of this. Can you please post some more information about these studies? Where were they conducted? Who participated in the experiments? I really want to know more!!

Thanks, Canis
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ProfWag » 08 Jun 2010, 21:35

Indigo Child wrote:
ciscop wrote:have you ever seen a guy levitating or you just like to believe it is possible?


It is a reasoned belief that it is possible, based on the thrust of logical argument. However, the ultimate
proof is in the pudding. Logic cannot subtitute for experience.

There are three things used in science: Hypothesis, Theory, and Law. A hypothesis is an educated guess based on observation. A theory takes that hypothesis and makes it valid through repeat testing. The Theory of Relativity is probably the most famous theory. It has yet to be proved incorrect though studies continue to be done and modifications made based on these repeated tests. Finally, there is a Law. When something is defined by a Law, there are no exceptions made. Probably the most famous Law is Newton's Law of Gravity. As such, levitation as it is known today is impossible based on this Law.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby Indigo Child » 08 Jun 2010, 23:05

There are three things used in science: Hypothesis, Theory, and Law. A hypothesis is an educated guess based on observation. A theory takes that hypothesis and makes it valid through repeat testing. The Theory of Relativity is probably the most famous theory. It has yet to be proved incorrect though studies continue to be done and modifications made based on these repeated tests. Finally, there is a Law. When something is defined by a Law, there are no exceptions made. Probably the most famous Law is Newton's Law of Gravity. As such, levitation as it is known today is impossible based on this Law.


I covered this earlier in another thread, no amount of repeat testing makes a hypothesis valid. If this was true, then theories would not eventually
be falsified(look up falsification in philosophy of science). The notion that a theory would be validated through a test, also known as verificiationism,
is long obsolete. You finally appeal to Newton's law of gravity, newton's theory has been dead since beginning of the 20th century. Even relativity is
more or less dead, the current theory of physics is quantum physics, in which there are no variables like space-time or any such thing as a physical reality
it all about analysing probabilities. Einstein hated this, which is why he said "God does not play dice"

In quantum physics because everything is either probable or improbable, there is nothing impossible as such. So levitation is not impossible according to
quantum physics. In fact nothing is impossible in quantum physics, there is even a probability for a shattered glass to become fully formed again or to walk
through a wall, or disappear and appear somewhere else, or to travel faster than the speed of light. Quantum physics is the most vigorously tested and successful
theory of all time. It has survived every test thrown at it.
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Re: Human Flying

Postby ProfWag » 08 Jun 2010, 23:35

Indigo Child wrote:. You finally appeal to Newton's law of gravity, newton's theory has been dead since beginning of the 20th century.

So Indigo just turned Newton's "Law" into a "Theory" and then says it's dead. Hmpf. You might want to tell that to scientists around the world...
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