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Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

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Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ciscop » 25 May 2010, 10:06

we have a couple of magicians amonst us
on the paranormal side
theres jon st germain (who doesnt post), jim callahan (also doesnt post anymore), dave koenig (he says he is a magician, i doubt it) and craig browning

all this 4, always talk crap about exposers like randi and derren brown
they believe the role of the magi is too amaze and keep a character like a mysterious charlatan of the 1800
so for them, is a slap in the face when their own kind reveal how a trick is done

i wonder if that is so bad.. i dont think exposure hurst the art, it actually makes the magician more interesting
that worked awesome for people like houdini, randi, ian rowland, richard wiseman, derren brown, penn and teller, banachek, ben harris and many more, exposure brings the public behind the curtain and let them see that magicians feel responsible for helping the people not getting deceived by psychics that use the same conjuring techniques we use.
so exposure isnt as bad as a bad performer ill say..
for instance
here is our very own Craig Brownings Ilusion
Shadows vision performed in Americas got talent and then mocked in the soup on e!
so thats a lot of people seeing how this illusion works not even counting how many saw them on internet

so whats worst.. a bad performer? or an exposer?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby Nostradamus » 25 May 2010, 13:00

That was really funny. It made me think of Pee Wee Herman after he falls off of his bike. "I meant to do that."
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby Nostradamus » 25 May 2010, 13:03

Here is Pee Wee
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby Craig Browning » 25 May 2010, 21:37

Thanks for exposing a $15,000.00 illusion ass wipe! :x

I said that to the jerk from the show by way of Sharon Osborne (I sent her an eMail that night) and I'm saying it here because someone thought it would be cute to post that bit again, so more people learn about PART of the secret (fortunately there's a hell of a lot more involved that wasn't even remotely tipped -- Mark Wilson's comment on Shadow Vision is "It's one of the most amazing and certainly one of the most complicated illusions I've ever seen in 50 years of doing magic..." (he bought two).

That video don't just prove this fool is a total idiot and that owning a bit prop means you can perform it, it likewise reveals what happens when you by a knock-off version to the prop that is not built to speck... then we have the rehearsal issues; SV requires at least a couple dozen hours of time for those involved with making it happen.

The Second Unit we ever built went into the Sigfried & Roy show as a Vegas exclusive for 5 years and too, they had the television performance rights within the U.S. no one else could perform it within Clark County Nevada or on TV without their permission as well as ours (mine and Ken Whitaker/ Creative Illusions Mfg. of Las Vegas).

As To the Issue of Exposure... either form of it is a bad thing but yes, poor performers do far more harm to the craft in the long run, but as one noted magician pointed out some years back "Good Magic is like Good Sex... just harder to find..." Well over 90% of those that think themselves a "Magician"/"Showman" AREN'T! They are over-inflated egos that don't listen... one such middle-aged Goth child is presently proving to the world that he's an Ass whilst headlining a Vegas show... but contrary to popular belief not all of the Vegas magic headliners are of the premium variety... the majority of them stink (just cut Mac King, P&T, and the Lance Burton Show out of the mix... I don't know who else is in town presently, but these are the main fixtures who are "safe" when it comes to the idea of being "entertained")

Vegas was also the on-stage home of a certain Headlining Bimbo that flashed the gimmick on some of the most elementary props going but it all got ignored because all of the dirty old men in the room were drooling over her tits and not her talent... again, someone that had access to some of the top minds and skilled performers of the craft and yet, she stank...(take that as you will).

Deliberate Exposure actually has some variables to it, some of which I tend to support. I'm referring to those bits that were shared decades ago to present with "kids" by way of comic books, cereal boxes, Oreo Cookies, Jiffy Pop Popcorn and a myriad of other sources as "Premiums"... collectibles tied to a famous magician and product for the most part and at times sources like the Boy Scout's handbook (as a merit badge challenge... along side puppetry, ventriloquism, etc.) This type of "exposure" is how most kids got interested in magic over the first 60-90 years of the 20th century and while most novices get bent over it, I doubt anything is going to change this level of exposure.

The type of "exposure" that gets everyone bent is what we find on YouTube (for starters) in which noted effects & methods that have just recently been released (in most cases) are being tipped by punks that simply want to ruin things for the working stiff. Theft is the better inference here in that the jackass that is doing the exposing don't give a damn about anyone but how such things build his own ego... forgetting that his face has been seen and many a magician not only own ball bats but hold to the ideas of "Carney Justice" such as I do... smashed hands and shattered knees tend to be a cure when it comes to this sort of assholiness.

The last category are your "Skeptics" few of whom are actually in the field doing research/investigating possible fraud. Most are little other than some part-time trickster looking to grab some cheap headline by harassing the local Readers... Psychic Baiting as it was known for some time, most of it encouraged by way of Ian Rowland's COMPLETE FACTS travesty, on Cold Reading. Ian being the typical cynic that deliberate deceives folks for ulterior motive, betraying trusts, friendships, etc. He walks into the Psychic world with preconceived views and not one inkling of empathy let alone the intellectual obligation for fairness... that is if his investigation was to be "scientific" as they keep screaming. :roll:

I should add that the Rowland book was not originally intended for the Magic community but was to be sold to the general public in a way more akin to a Consumer Awareness reference source... or that's how I understand things, at least. Add to this Rowland's jokes on American Tv in which a cup of black coffee is used as a shiner... sorry, I've done Readings since the 1970s and most Readers drink tea or water if anything at all. Yes, charlatans can and will use various "cheats" no question... but the majority of people that do Readings DON'T... the only even remote exception is a questionable one... Muscle Reading. This is something that "Gypsies" have known of and used for generations (contrary to the Banachek book, which only covers the history of public performance using the Ideomotor factor). Again, as I've pointed out previously, the majority of Readers aren't out to hustle the public but people like Rowland, Randi, Brown, etc. love painting things under the same banner so as to INVENT bias via association... that's another story though.

I'll not mention specific devices outside of the couple recently exposed on CBS Tv (the Mentalist) such as the "Swami" (lead under finger nail) method to secret writing and of course, exploiting the impressions made by the act of writing (there are hundreds of variants to this) but such things hurt us all when it comes to the Mentalism side of magic, be it the Masked Ass tipping the Center Tear or some shitforbrain weekend warrior presenting a $500.00 book test at a kiddie party. :x and yes, this sort of thing is "exposure" in that it is not age appropriate for starters and thus, placing it into a birthday party show belittles an otherwise outstanding piece of mental magic... transmuting a miracle into being nothing but a "trick" in the mind of the observer... but magicians have RUINED many great bits of mentalism in this manner, a few dozen most recently impaling their hands on various sharp objects as an end result... thankfully said incident will insure us that at least that group of fools won't be perpetuating such selfishness -- the inability of magicians to simply respect Mentalism and keep the two art forms segregated.

"Sigh"... so, that's that. :evil:
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ciscop » 26 May 2010, 02:36

you know craig..
i do get lost in your ramblings

well.. i did saw richard wiseman and derren brown
entering with all fairness to analyze joe power
and richard wiseman did say a lot.. well.. he could do it.. ¨this way¨.. and that would be a logical explanation or.. he could be doing it the hard way.. which is with the spirits and all that crap..
there was a way of avoiding this.. and that was to do an experiment and of course.. joe power didnt agree to it..

also.. the guys i mentioned are not ¨tricksters¨ those are part of the biggest names in magic today, banachek could be one of the greatest mentalists creators of all time.
you know that
who cares that there are not investigating ?. you just use that to invalid their claims. which by the way are hand to hand with logic, reason and science. the other side of the fence is faith, beliefs and ignorance.

so i know in what side of the fence i stand
i do rather expose and tell people what cold reading is, what the forer effect is
than to keep the idea of ¨there are psychics out there but we just dont know who they are and those psychics wouldnt take a test since they are not interested¨

i believe is rather wrong
having the knowledge and not sharing it to protect people
you know what uri did.. you know uri is a trickster and that guy scamed millions out of companies
yet, you prefer to have the myth of uri alive than to help people
sorry.. that´s no good in my book
to the hell with uri and all his kind
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ProfWag » 26 May 2010, 02:58

ciscop wrote:you know craig..
i do get lost in your ramblings

well.. i did saw richard wiseman and derren brown
entering with all fairness to analyze joe power
and richard wiseman did say a lot.. well.. he could do it.. ¨this way¨.. and that would be a logical explanation or.. he could be doing it the hard way.. which is with the spirits and all that crap..
there was a way of avoiding this.. and that was to do an experiment and of course.. joe power didnt agree to it..

also.. the guys i mentioned are not ¨tricksters¨ those are part of the biggest names in magic today, banachek could be one of the greatest mentalists creators of all time.
you know that
who cares that there are not investigating ?. you just use that to invalid their claims. which by the way are hand to hand with logic, reason and science. the other side of the fence is faith, beliefs and ignorance.

so i know in what side of the fence i stand
i do rather expose and tell people what cold reading is, what the forer effect is
than to keep the idea of ¨there are psychics out there but we just dont know who they are and those psychics wouldnt take a test since they are not interested¨

i believe is rather wrong
having the knowledge and not sharing it to protect people
you know what uri did.. you know uri is a trickster and that guy scamed millions out of companies
yet, you prefer to have the myth of uri alive than to help people
sorry.. that´s no good in my book
to the hell with uri and all his kind

If I knew how to imbed that cute little cartoon of hands clapping, I would insert that here... (BTW, that means I agree with ciscop on this...)
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby Craig Browning » 26 May 2010, 21:23

you know craig.. i do get lost in your ramblings


That’s probably because you DON’T READ! (or should I say, “Study”)

well.. i did saw richard wiseman and derren brown entering with all fairness to analyze joe power and richard wiseman did say a lot.. well.. he could do it.. ¨this way¨.. and that would be a logical explanation or.. he could be doing it the hard way.. which is with the spirits and all that crap.. there was a way of avoiding this.. and that was to do an experiment and of course.. joe power didnt agree to it..


I’m not certain what that has to do with you EXPOSING a $15,000.00 magic prop that you have no legal right to and by all rights, I should have my lawyers suing the ever living crap out of you over… but as my other used to say, “one can’t expect to get blood from a turnip”

also.. the guys i mentioned are not ¨tricksters¨ those are part of the biggest names in magic today, banachek could be one of the greatest mentalists creators of all time. you know that who cares that there are not investigating ?. you just use that to invalid their claims. which by the way are hand to hand with logic, reason and science. the other side of the fence is faith, beliefs and ignorance.


Do you want Banachek’s phone number… I can put you in touch with him as well as Gellar… they are both working acquaintances of mine; Scott Wells, who runs Steve’s retail business when he’s traveling, has become a very good friend as has Jimmy Fingers, who has known Steve for over 20 years. Of course he and I have done lectures together as well.

I’ve always found it odd, how I can get along quite well with Banachek, Rick Maue and other noted elements of the “we love Randi” cult (including the old fart himself) better that I do with weekend wannabes that want to act self-important and knowledgeable.

so i know in what side of the fence i stand i do rather expose and tell people what cold reading is, what the forer effect is than to keep the idea of ¨there are psychics out there but we just dont know who they are and those psychics wouldnt take a test since they are not interested¨


No, you are merely regurgitating what you are told to say by the powers that be just like the Sunday go’n to meet’n bible thumpers do.

i believe is rather wrong having the knowledge and not sharing it to protect people you know what uri did.. you know uri is a trickster and that guy scamed millions out of companies yet, you prefer to have the myth of uri alive than to help people sorry.. that´s no good in my book to the hell with uri and all his kind


Who do you protect others by stirring crap on a forum?

How many Consumer Awareness lectures do you present annually and have you been doing them for more than twenty years, such as I have?

How many physical investigations have you personally done with real life psychic predator types… the good folks that would kill you if they found you out?

How many such rackets have you aided law enforcement in investigating and breaking up?

And how is Uri maximizing his fame and charging lecture fees common to his time any different that Randi doing the same? (other than Randi fakes his tax exempt status, that is)?

I go after predators, I know what to look for, where they tend to hover, and most importantly how they local family networks tend to operate all of which I learned by doing. Again I will ask, when was the last time you put your ass and your big mouth on the line and I don't mean harassing the granny ladies down the street?

You need to know who you are talking too before you go shooting your mouth off towards when it comes to such accusations and more importantly, who they are tied to. By the way, during the big Volcano that keeps causing travel issues in Europe a very well known skeptic that’s all anti Uri, etc. in public, actually stayed “at his friend’s home” (as in Mr. Geller) until he could get a flight out. I refuse to name names but I can assure you that you have heard of him.

By the way, sense we’re on the penis size thing… how many books or effects have you contributed to Mentalism? I have over a half-dozen out there presently with more coming out this year and my first “shut-eye” books next year. I’ve likewise won awards for my contributions to numerous effects for stage as well as parlor/Mentalism so maybe you need to stop being so jealous and showing off your ignorance and lethargy…

Oops! Where did I get that from? :roll:

Hmmm… Maybe it's your not knowing how to (or being too lazy to)properly compose a paragraph using proper punctuations, spellings or respect enough for individuals to properly spell their names… that may have something to do with it… your writing style is on par with a 4th grader as are your arguments… every single one of them text book “mantras” tied to groups like CSICOPS, and JREF without a single “new” contention or “proof” on anything. It’s the same crap Randi was pushing 30 years ago and the same crap CISCOPS got in trouble for about 20 years ago (they got caught red-handed changing data because proof data… I believe it was on Astrology… was coming back… we certainly don’t hear them banging a drum on that FUBAR do we?)

Get your information straight if you are going to lean on others and try to demean someone. All you’ve managed to do and deliberately I might add, is poked the bear and proven that you have no respect for magic in the least… you are a red handed exposure of an effect that don’t belong to you… I guess I need to make my rounds on all the forums showing where you exposed magic in order to show off… but I’ll not lower my standards to such a level though I will ask of you and the moderators two things; get that video off this forum and for you… GROW UP!
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ProfWag » 26 May 2010, 23:30

Craig Browning wrote:I’m not certain what that has to do with you EXPOSING a $15,000.00 magic prop that you have no legal right to and by all rights, I should have my lawyers suing the ever living crap out of you over… but as my other used to say, “one can’t expect to get blood from a turnip”

Craig,
Ciscop didn't EXPOSE anything. He merely posted a link to a public youtube video.
From what legal right to sue would you be referring too? Any Case Law you might be able to produce to support your statement?
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby EnfieldWasLegit » 27 May 2010, 01:39

HaHa! That was hilarious.
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ciscop » 27 May 2010, 01:47

I didnt Exposed anything !!
i merely posted a link!!!
what the hell are you talking about?!?!?1

you threaten to sue me for posting a link... hahahahaha
¨your lawyers¨.. yep.. do your lawyers use red helmets and have chocolate moustaches?
will you pay them in Play-Doh?
i am pretty sure i can outsmart your whole ¨team of lawyers¨ with a ¨get out of jail¨ monopoly card

this is how the conversation between craig and his lawyer will go

Lawyer :
¨so.. craig.. are you saying.. that you want to sue a gentleman over the internet.. because he posted a link.. of a youtube video.. of the Soup that also took his feed from America´s Got talent?... craig.. im sorry.. but are you drunk or are you really that dumb¨

Craig :
¨I can assure you... i am not drunk¨

hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha

it isnt nice to threaten to sue somebody
so you get what you deserve!

and i get lost on your ramblings
because you arent talking to me or anybody else
you are talking to yourself
you are in love with your inner voice. you egomaniac
now of you go to take out some money from some old widow :
Last edited by ciscop on 27 May 2010, 02:46, edited 3 times in total.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ProfWag » 27 May 2010, 02:29

And here's another little tidbit of info concerning magician's props and the law:
Even if I were to get a patent on an illusion, there is nothing in the law that prohibits others from talking about what my illusion is or HOW it is performed. This was the finding from case law resulting from lawsuits against the Masked Magician TV shows...
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby EnfieldWasLegit » 27 May 2010, 06:16

I forgot about the Masked Magician. Those shows were great. Is that guy still able to show his face in magic circles? I would think he pissed off a ton of magicians.
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ciscop » 27 May 2010, 09:32

His name is Leonardo Montano A.k.a Val Valentino
a stupid beaner from LA
by the way, i get to call him a beaner, cause i am one, just like black people get away with the N word, but if you use it,
you are racist!!

and i dont think magicians like him
and despise craig in his lsd trips considers,
i am a magician and i am part of the beaner circle of professional magicians

now i am off to eat some guacamole
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby EnfieldWasLegit » 27 May 2010, 11:36

"and despise craig in his lsd trips considers,"
What does this even mean? Are you able to dress yourself?
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Re: Whats worst for a magician? exposure or a bad performer

Postby ciscop » 27 May 2010, 12:19

EnfieldWasLegit wrote:"and despise WHAT craig in his lsd trips considers,"
What does this even mean? Are you able to dress yourself?


i am able to dress myself
but i still need somebody to tie my shoes

by the way your joke would have been funnier
if it wasnt because you arent even smart enought to detect that a couple of afeminate magicians are gay
i hope you are sitted cause guess what? Elton John is also gay
bet you didnt spot that one
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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