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Looking for Info on a church in Panama

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Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ProfWag » 06 May 2010, 04:27

I don't expect this to go far, but I thought I'd take a stab in the dark so here it goes:
A few months ago I was "Indiana Jones'ing" it down in Panama. There is a small church in the old section of Panama City called the Church of San Jose. Inside this church is a huge alter made of gold and some story about Capt Morgan spilling rum on the thing and came up with a new spice drink or some crap like that. Yea, yea, yea, no big deal. However, on the right wall, under one of the smaller alters, there is a non-descript, bas relief of the Last Supper. What I am looking for is a picture of that. Does anyone know anyone who lives there that wouldn't mind taking a picture of it or is anyone planning on going down anytime soon? I've searched the internet and couldn't find one. I took a picture when I was there, but I can't find it to save my life. There is potentially an important, historical significance in this bas relief if I could just have another look.
Thanks in advance
Wag
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby Craig Browning » 07 May 2010, 00:08

You know, I'd check with the archeology department of various colleges (known for decent funding and large department size... specializing in that part of the world). Something that unique must be documented somewhere like that be it in the States or something like the state Universities in the Central American corridor.... Maybe the University of Mexico City (I think that's what it's called), it would probably be one of the better funded facilities outside of South America (Brazil & Argentina in particular).

:idea: Shoot a note over to the folks at Nat. Geo. as well, I'll bet they could at least point you in the right direction.
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ciscop » 07 May 2010, 14:28

ooh man this sounds so interesting
kind of like angels and demons
but something of that importance in panama??
well.. it is not to me to judge

i do have a friend living in panama city
let me ask for her help but not sure i could get her to go to a church since her busy schedule

so you wanna a picture of the last supper?
couldnt be found on internet? Have you tryed "la ultima cena" ?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ProfWag » 07 May 2010, 20:44

Thanks guys!!! Nat Geo is a great idea Craig and ciscop, no, I haven't tried your recommendation, but I don't know Spanish so I probably wouldn't be able to navigate through it, but I'll check it out and if your friend works out, that's even better!
Heck, I didn't even think to contact the University of Panama's history department, but I'm going to check them out as well.
Thanks again and I'll fill you in on my developments.
I'll tell you why though. You know how you go to see sights with someone else who's not interested in the same thing you are? Well, having lived in Italy and seen the Last Supper by Da Vinci, that was of particular interest to me (but not my wife who was more interested in the gold alter. Anyway, (and this is reminiscent of The Da Vinci Code) I only remember that the Apostle John appeared to me to be very much a woman. This bas relief was supposedly done in the 1600's. Could the rumor be true that this was, in fact, Mary Magdelen rather than John and if so, it would be quite historical if this rumor goes back 400 years rather than the last decade or so. I took a picture of it in hopes that I could study it better since I was rushed around, but since the picture didn't come out, I need to find another one.
Thanks again!
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 May 2010, 01:13

Mary Magdalen is considered one of the Aspostles in some circles. For some reason, she got knocked down to prostitute somewhere in history. Oh those silly patriarchial, monotheistic, self centered, males who always find their way into the facts and change them to suit their personal agendas.
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby Craig Browning » 08 May 2010, 01:52

NinjaPuppy wrote:Mary Magdalen is considered one of the Apostles in some circles. For some reason, she got knocked down to prostitute somewhere in history. Oh those silly patriarchal, monotheistic, self centered, males who always find their way into the facts and change them to suit their personal agendas.


One of the early Popes deliberately equated her to the woman being stoned in one of the earlier Gospel parables. In truth Mary was quite a well to do lady which likewise lends us a bit of language confusion in that translators from a patriarchal theological position would not wish to empower a woman by noting that she was of noble blood, etc. so they made the translation to imply her to be of a lesser station. Then again, most biblical scholars have suggested that JC grew up poor when archeology and anthropological studies suggest much to the contrary; for starters his adopted father Joseph was a skilled tradesman which meant he had steady work and was paid quite well for his skills; carpentry and fine masonry being two of the more high demand skill sets of the era. Too, mommy dearest (Mary the virgin) along with her sister, were property owners; she and Martha actually owned a castle and came from a minor dynasty which raises another interesting point when it comes to JC and his pedigree.

The New Testament offers two different genealogies, each of them showing a path of relationship from as far back as Adam to JC's EARTHLY Father... Jesus was NOT related by blood or otherwise, to Joseph on any level other than adoption e.g. the family tree of Joseph affects JC at absolutely no legal level (by common laws of the land as well as Jewish law). The other problem with the gene pool records (aside from the fact that they not only disagree with one another but literally have people in line to be their own grandpa) is that Jewish tradition links the family blood line through the mother, not the father.

Nowhere in the New Testament can we find Joseph tied to any sense of social influence, wealth, etc. other than through his trade skills and the fact that he was seen as an honorable spokesman in the village. Mary on the other hand, along with her sister Martha, had ties to an Egyptian temple as "priestesses" (for lack of a better term -- more akin to going to convent), she was educated which was quite unique for the era (even to date for that matter), carried a known royal pedigree via the tribe of Ben (Benjamin) who were the caretakers of the temple at one point in time (I can't recall all of the details here but as I can recall David fell from Grace so Benjamin was given the blessing, etc.... let's face it, God's fickle).


I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the bible is so confusing to keep up with :?
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ProfWag » 08 May 2010, 02:56

Craig Browning wrote:
One of the early Popes deliberately equated her to the woman being stoned in one of the earlier Gospel parables. In truth Mary was quite a well to do lady which likewise lends us a bit of language confusion in that translators from a patriarchal theological position would not wish to empower a woman by noting that she was of noble blood, etc. so they made the translation to imply her to be of a lesser station. Then again, most biblical scholars have suggested that JC grew up poor when archeology and anthropological studies suggest much to the contrary; for starters his adopted father Joseph was a skilled tradesman which meant he had steady work and was paid quite well for his skills; carpentry and fine masonry being two of the more high demand skill sets of the era. Too, mommy dearest (Mary the virgin) along with her sister, were property owners; she and Martha actually owned a castle and came from a minor dynasty which raises another interesting point when it comes to JC and his pedigree.

The New Testament offers two different genealogies, each of them showing a path of relationship from as far back as Adam to JC's EARTHLY Father... Jesus was NOT related by blood or otherwise, to Joseph on any level other than adoption e.g. the family tree of Joseph affects JC at absolutely no legal level (by common laws of the land as well as Jewish law). The other problem with the gene pool records (aside from the fact that they not only disagree with one another but literally have people in line to be their own grandpa) is that Jewish tradition links the family blood line through the mother, not the father.

Nowhere in the New Testament can we find Joseph tied to any sense of social influence, wealth, etc. other than through his trade skills and the fact that he was seen as an honorable spokesman in the village. Mary on the other hand, along with her sister Martha, had ties to an Egyptian temple as "priestesses" (for lack of a better term -- more akin to going to convent), she was educated which was quite unique for the era (even to date for that matter), carried a known royal pedigree via the tribe of Ben (Benjamin) who were the caretakers of the temple at one point in time (I can't recall all of the details here but as I can recall David fell from Grace so Benjamin was given the blessing, etc.... let's face it, God's fickle).


I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the bible is so confusing to keep up with :?

Not to dispel this wealth of information as it's spot on with one little exception. Outside of some book I keep finding in my hotel room, there is no archeological evidence that Junior ever existed at all, neither as a man nor as the son of George Burns.
And as for Mary, she was misidentified by Pope Greg in the 6th Century and remained a Call Girl until a few years after my birth...
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 May 2010, 05:20

That book that you keep finding during your trysts... um... I mean travels, is missing a few chapters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ProfWag » 08 May 2010, 05:26

NinjaPuppy wrote:That book that you keep finding during your trysts... um... I mean travels, is missing a few chapters.

Reason #87 why I'm not a fan of religion. Who the hell WERE those people who decided what should and shouldn't be in that book. That little group of people changed the course of history...
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 May 2010, 05:33

Don't forget all the 'versions'. It obviously doesn't translate too well. :)
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby Craig Browning » 09 May 2010, 02:06

Silly you.. they just found Noah's Ark and believe it or not the Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant were right there with it, wrapped up in Joseph's technicolor dream coat.

IF you can find an "honest" historian/researcher around the biblical insanity they will sustain exactly what you have pointed out ProWag. On the other hand, you have those "researchers" that were bought and paid for by the State of Israel, The Vatican, Salt Lake (and at least a dozen other Christian seats of power) along with the leadership of Islam... seems that this is one area the Big 3 tend to get along on, covering one another's tukkis so that the "big lie" doesn't get exposed. Oddly, the truth is coming up from the dirt just as the good book warned, and what is being painted isn't the divine sage most envision when it comes to the "messiah". In fact, the Jesus we know of today never existed as a single person but in the aspects of several different people from around the same period of time (give or take a century here and there). Certain "recently" (past decade) discovered materials even hint that JC and John the Baptist were one in the same, not cousins as the bible suggests. But again, this is the sort of material the Big 3 will strive to keep quiet until they can find a way of working around it... kind of how they did with Nag Hammadi, and referring to it as non-Gospels or other Gnostic texts that don't fit the tall tales they want everything to fit into... like Mary M being married to JC and even having greater authority than the men who followed JC.

There is "historical" inference around the idea that a sage/shaman/rabbi fitting the Jesus idea lived and was executed. But the documented record gives him and the execution less than a paragraph's note... when compared to the reams of material still retained by the Vatican let alone the mountain of manuscripts destroyed in the name of Rome & God (and at one time, Allah) it seems rather odd. That is, unless you look at mythology and ritualism throughout that region and much of the known world for that matter; the myriad of Sun Gods (as well as the bastard children of Gods) that became the hero or hope for their people... Jesus seems to be nothing more than a Jewish attempt to echo that same theme, melding it into their prophetic verse which was later "edited" by the hand of those seeking to use this cult to their political favor... but I'm confident many here know that tale. :twisted:

Long story short, archeological discoveries that can be intimated as being somehow associated with the various biblical tales (especially old testament) get to gain public light. Anything that might challenge the essence of the Abrahamic traditions is quickly suppressed... or at least, that's how it was long ago (lots of murder and mayhem... made the Cold War look like Amateur hour -- Archeologist & translators murdered, come up missing along with the material they were translating, etc.)

Sigh... :? Go to Jerusalem and you will find 3 tombs of Jesus; the Catholic display that conveniently has his tomb and birth place under the same roof... the lesser known Protestant Gardens and the more recently discovered site that had ossuaries bearing the names of the "Holy Family"... Then again, there are at least two different sites of the birth, the ascension and numerous other odds & ends (and yet a deranged member of the Roman ruling family found all these sites some 1,700 years ago without question). :shock:

I give up :ugeek:
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Re: Looking for Info on a church in Panama

Postby ProfWag » 09 May 2010, 21:36

There are people around this forum that are angered by all the secrets the U.S. Government (among others) keeps from its citizens. Imagine the wealth of information the Vatican has that it keeps secret from society as well. For all we know, they have evidence that there is no Big Daddy OR Junior, but that wouldn't fair very well for their wealth if that got out...
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