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Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 26 Nov 2009, 08:37

If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?


That's more ifs than in the opening paragraph of Toffler's book Future Shock.

I would suggest a pathological fear of reality.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 09:05

yep! you have everything in pere lachaisse
from the lovers: Abelardo and Eloisa to cool people like Morrison, Proust, Moliere, Wilde and Piaf
is quite a chilling experience... i wonder if you can still get buried there?.. like a millionaire can do it or is it more like a museaum now?

yeah, i ended up drinking my shot with wilde, which i am not a big fan of.. i guess at least i didnt take it with Hahnemann (father of homeopathy who is also there).. one last thing.. one time when i told the story to a french girl she asked me if i was gay, only because the grave of oscar wilde is kind of a shrine for gay people...
who knew? i guess the lipstick kisses should have gave me a clue...
live and learn
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 09:17

Nostradamus wrote:You guys are amazing. But I have climbed to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge. I climbed El Cap in Yosemite 3 times (1000m). Rode on horseback to watch rhinos. Stood on top of the pyramids at Giza. Saw a meteor that cast shadows. Watched the Berlin wall being built. Swam with piranhas. Was staring into volcano when it erupted and hit a town 8 miles away.


OOOH!!! the volcano story is amaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing !!!
i also didnt knew you could climb up the golden gate and the pyramids of giza!

we really need to create a thread
like the EGO-THREAD to keep sharing this amazing stories
is gonna be fun.. i bet one story will end up like this
Scescop - ¨... and the hooker gave the money back¨
:lol: :lol: :lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 26 Nov 2009, 10:56

I was on the 'dog path', the tourist trail up the volcano in a rain storm. Had an umbrella for the rain. Hiked up the rain forest and into a summit cloud. The fog lifted and I was at the rim of the crater. Suddenly the entire crater was filled with a black column about 150m across and headed straight up. I tried the wiley coyote trick and placed the umbrella between me and the searing heat. Did not work for wiley coyote and it did not work for me. Knocked me off my feet and melted the umbrella. There was a short period of time in which hot burning ash blew over me and then the big rocks fell out of the sky. It rained rocks the size of microwaves and televisions while I ran screaming and crying. Hours later I got back to town. There was all sorts of debris in town and its 8 miles from the volcano.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 15:01

Nostradamus wrote:I was on the 'dog path', the tourist trail up the volcano in a rain storm. Had an umbrella for the rain. Hiked up the rain forest and into a summit cloud. The fog lifted and I was at the rim of the crater. Suddenly the entire crater was filled with a black column about 150m across and headed straight up. I tried the wiley coyote trick and placed the umbrella between me and the searing heat. Did not work for wiley coyote and it did not work for me. Knocked me off my feet and melted the umbrella. There was a short period of time in which hot burning ash blew over me and then the big rocks fell out of the sky. It rained rocks the size of microwaves and televisions while I ran screaming and crying. Hours later I got back to town. There was all sorts of debris in town and its 8 miles from the volcano.


what volcano was it? where were you?
do you have a scar from that?
was the explosion really loud?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 26 Nov 2009, 19:56

Student of Sophia wrote:If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through fancy mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Fear of stigma? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?

This would sure sum it up. SOS -I find your questions to be very interesting. It will give me something to think about while I try to defrost a turkey that should have defrosted 2 days ago. Particularly 'pathological rationalism' as that seems to be so very well put.

"To a certain intellectual mediocrity, characterized by enlightened rationalism, a scientific theory that simplifies matters is a very good means of defense, because of the tremendous faith of modern man in anything which bears the label "scientific." -Carl Jung

A wonderful quote as well. Thank you for posting this.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 21:22

Nostradamus wrote:You guys are amazing. But I have climbed to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge. I climbed El Cap in Yosemite 3 times (1000m). Rode on horseback to watch rhinos. Stood on top of the pyramids at Giza. Saw a meteor that cast shadows. Watched the Berlin wall being built. Swam with piranhas. Was staring into volcano when it erupted and hit a town 8 miles away.

Great stuff ND! I can honestly say I haven't experienced anything close to those!
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 21:30

Student of Sophia wrote:If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through fancy mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Fear of stigma? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?

Perhaps, but I don't think so. At the time of my major experiences, I was quite taken aback and for a couple of my experiences, I believed them for several years. But as I got older and more studious, I learned possible alternate explanations and now realize that thereit is these alternate explanations for which I prefer to subscribe to.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 26 Nov 2009, 22:38

ProfWag wrote:
Student of Sophia wrote:If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through fancy mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Fear of stigma? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?

Perhaps, but I don't think so. At the time of my major experiences, I was quite taken aback and for a couple of my experiences, I believed them for several years. But as I got older and more studious, I learned possible alternate explanations and now realize that thereit is these alternate explanations for which I prefer to subscribe to.


I don't like the idea of smashing through psychological defenses you have built up. They were built up for a reason. But...if you're going to hang out at forums like this and debate people like me then perhaps a deep part of you secretly wants them smashed through, so that you can grow?

"As a psychiatrist and psychotherapist I have often come up against the phenomena in question and could convince myself how much these inner experiences meant to my patients. In most cases they were things which people do not talk about for fear of exposing themselves to thoughtless ridicule. I was amazed to see how many people have had experiences of this kind and how carefully the secret was guarded." -Carl Jung

The tension between paranormal experience and pathological rationalism can send people to the therapy couch. What you need is a middle-ground, I think. I did an I-Ching reading about you and this line came up:

"Thus the superior man reduces that which is too much,
And augments that which is too little.
He weighs things and makes them equal."


Seems apt. My readings usually are.

Dr Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, author of Extraordinary Knowing 10 minute vid
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 26 Nov 2009, 23:02

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Student of Sophia wrote:If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through fancy mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Fear of stigma? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?

This would sure sum it up. SOS -I find your questions to be very interesting. It will give me something to think about while I try to defrost a turkey that should have defrosted 2 days ago. Particularly 'pathological rationalism' as that seems to be so very well put.


Glad to hear that. :)

"To a certain intellectual mediocrity, characterized by enlightened rationalism, a scientific theory that simplifies matters is a very good means of defense, because of the tremendous faith of modern man in anything which bears the label "scientific." -Carl Jung

A wonderful quote as well. Thank you for posting this.


My pleasure.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 27 Nov 2009, 00:46

Student of Sophia wrote:I don't like the idea of smashing through psychological defenses you have built up. They were built up for a reason. But...if you're going to hang out at forums like this and debate people like me then perhaps a deep part of you secretly wants them smashed through, so that you can grow?

I do believe that some of our skeptics here have said that they would like to see different areas of the paranormal (psi in particular) be proven. Sorry skeptics, I'm paraphrasing comments from assorted posts and you just know it's not going to be an accurate statement.

"As a psychiatrist and psychotherapist I have often come up against the phenomena in question and could convince myself how much these inner experiences meant to my patients. In most cases they were things which people do not talk about for fear of exposing themselves to thoughtless ridicule. I was amazed to see how many people have had experiences of this kind and how carefully the secret was guarded." -Carl Jung

SOS - Once again, a wonderful quote.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 27 Nov 2009, 05:37

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Student of Sophia wrote:I don't like the idea of smashing through psychological defenses you have built up. They were built up for a reason. But...if you're going to hang out at forums like this and debate people like me then perhaps a deep part of you secretly wants them smashed through, so that you can grow?

sort of... i would like to believe there´s psi, althought must of the so called evidence here is way too easy to explain,
(i was amazed when i read scescop believe he has psi only because he guessed 1 CARD correctly, is like the word coincidence means doesnt exist in the believers language)
perhaps im harder to amaze because i am a psychologist and a magician and know how people like to deceive themselves?.
still it would be awesome if you could share your stories, at least the best of your stories.

"As a psychiatrist and psychotherapist I have often come up against the phenomena in question and could convince myself how much these inner experiences meant to my patients. In most cases they were things which people do not talk about for fear of exposing themselves to thoughtless ridicule. I was amazed to see how many people have had experiences of this kind and how carefully the secret was guarded." -Carl Jung

SOS - Once again, a wonderful quote.

i was way into jung when i started chosing my career path... then reason and logic won me over
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 27 Nov 2009, 05:48

ciscop wrote:i was way into jung when i started chosing my career path... then reason and logic won me over

I have read very little by Jung. Not having a background in psychology, his stuff can be hard for me to follow.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 27 Nov 2009, 11:58

What NinjaP said is my position. At this time there is no evidence of psi. That does not mean that it is not so.

What I find a bit disconcerting from the psi believers is comments, at times and certainly not by all, that its definitely true and they can't, or won't prove it.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 27 Nov 2009, 23:11

Student of Sophia wrote:The tension between paranormal experience and pathological rationalism can send people to the therapy couch. What you need is a middle-ground, I think. I did an I-Ching reading about you and this line came up:
"Thus the superior man reduces that which is too much,
And augments that which is too little.
He weighs things and makes them equal."

Seems apt. My readings usually are.
Dr Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, author of Extraordinary Knowing 10 minute vid

Thanks for the reading SoS. I think I have to disagree a bit though and here's why. First, I don't consider myself superior. I began my educational pursuits thinking it would be too much for me, but I overcame that and spent 7 years of my life putting off golf an concentrating on what I needed to do. I don't weigh or rationalize different thoughts to make anything equal, either I see something for what it is, or it isn't so in my mind. I search for the truth and form opinions based on what I find. I have no problem at all changing my opinion on something however, and if something is presented that contradicts what I had previously believed, I am proud, actually, that I can change my opinion and move on. For example, my "religion" is atheist, but I do hold out hope that I'll see a sign from above. I really wish there were an afterlife, but as of now, I don't believe there is.
I really have no tension concerning the paranormal and rationalisism. I don't dwell on either one at all. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the paranormal, except when I log into the forum. My issue with the paranormal, as I've mentioned before, is in fraudulent psychics taking money and altering the thoughts of my friends and loved ones. I want to find a "true" psychic, medium, astrologist, or anything along those lines. My search so far has been futile. I am most interested in finding the truth about the possibility of psi and since I have the resources available to me to search scientific journals on experiments, I started learning. What I've learned is that at the present time, there is not enough evidence to support any type of psi, especially controlled psi. So, unless you are willing to contribute to my continued learning in the subject by sharing experiences and your evidence, your statements don't do much for me.
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