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Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 02 Dec 2013, 08:42

justintime wrote:Well said. American exceptionalism is accepted worldwide and America is the richest, most powerful nation in the world in spite of it. It is the triumph of the people against common adversity that forces Americans to excel in everything they do. Australians on the other hand are beset by a culturally backward country made of little towns where 70% of the country is nothing but an arid desert. Convicts were sent to Australia to isolate and punish them. Pilgrims came to America to be free and prosperous. Americans spy on world leaders. Australians spy on Indonesians.

As the saying goes. If you aim too low you end up shooting your own foot. It is no accident America has a space program. Australians do not.

Sorry to only misappropriate a desert continent from the original inhabitants, my mistake. You stole a much better continent and dispossessed more people, well done. You kind of got big chunks of central and South America by proxy in the end as well.

You actually aren't the richest country in the world per capita, there's a few ahead of you, including Australia and Switzerland. There's a lot of valuable minerals under that arid desert and only 22M people to share the wealth with. The US certainly has the most money in total, especially when you start fabricating a lot of it on credit. It also has much more inequality, so your 'richest' status is not very equally shared, meaning per capita earnings are not the best in the world. There are a lot of precarious 'nickel and dime' jobs in the US, Australia has the highest minimum wage in the OECD, flatter wages, and better employment protections. It also has guaranteed universal health care ('single payer').

Pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution, not to be prosperous. They were arguably just as 'free' in Britain or America concerning civil rights net of religious intolerance. The later multifarious and nefarious settlers and invaders of course were not religious pilgrims, and it seems characters like George Washington definitely had their eye on the riches of the new continent as they pushed for secession -- which was NOT a popular idea amongst most American settlers at the time in fact.

Australians spy on world leaders too, including Indonesia, and the Anglosphere countries do a fair bit of information exchange. Australia is regularly heavied by the US to provide information, training bases, and in fact US listening posts like Pine Gap in the region. They also increasingly demand military interoperability with Australian forces for expeditionary adventures overseas. There is a point, however, where it is probably wise to say 'no' to your allies once in a while.

Convicts were sent to Australia to 'excise the convict stain', not to isolate and punish them particularly. It served a dual colonising purpose.

America has a space program. So do the Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Indians and ESA, i.e. any affluent country or union of countries with a population of over, say, 100M might have a go at it. Australia's population is still around 22M due to the aforesaid arid desert, a climactic and geographic condition which is no fault of the inhabitants. Australian scientists continue to make significant breakthroughs in a variety of areas however, from physics to biotech.

The Russian space program lead US efforts throughout the 1950s and 60s. In desperation, JFK, more interested in the Cold War and space race than important domestic programs like civil rights, constantly beat the drum in Congress to attempt to outclass the Russians, believing landing a man on the moon would finally trump them. He then diverted a huge amount of national wealth towards this dubious aim, rather than paying for, say, healthcare and education for the populace. However, there is strong evidence that the Apollo moon landings needed to be faked in the end as technology was not up to it, somewhat negating the entire exercise.

In the present, after 2 space shuttle explosions and many fatalities in a system operating in low earth orbit only, manned rocket launches are now only possible via the Russians.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby ProfWag » 02 Dec 2013, 09:23

justintime wrote:Nobody is giving America anything, not to the richest country in the world. America has earned whatever it is today. But I have to say national security is down the toilet. Some guy called Obama from a 3rd world country like Kenya slipped into the white house with a fake birth certificate and the only one who can prove that is hiding in Russia (Edward Snowden) accused of being a traitor.

http://www.gfmag.com/component/content/ ... z2mHASUEiH

Yet we Americans voted for him. Twice.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 02 Dec 2013, 09:57

ProfWag wrote:
justintime wrote:Nobody is giving America anything, not to the richest country in the world. America has earned whatever it is today. But I have to say national security is down the toilet. Some guy called Obama from a 3rd world country like Kenya slipped into the white house with a fake birth certificate and the only one who can prove that is hiding in Russia (Edward Snowden) accused of being a traitor.

http://www.gfmag.com/component/content/ ... z2mHASUEiH

Yet we Americans voted for him. Twice.

And the elections weren't even rigged those times! Unlike the rigging in the Bush wins in 2000 and 2004.

Also note:


BEYOND GDP
It is important to notice that GDP is not a perfect measure to describe the well-being and quality of life of populations, and, in fact, there are other indexes that take into account other variables such as life expectancy, income distribution, literacy, etc., such as the UN Human Development Index and the Index of Sustainable Economic Welfare. In fact, GDP is often considered imperfect even to measure overall economic strength; see a report released in 2009 by a commission chaired by Nobel Prize-winning economists Professor Joseph E. Stiglitz and Professor Amartya Sen, and by Professor Jean-Paul Fitoussi.


This happens to be one of my amateur areas of expertise. Apart from the GDP per capita figures econometricians like to put forward, when you actually compare earned wages side by side, rather than GDP calculations, the US doesn't fare quite so well, due to a preponderance of nickel and dime jobs with poor job security, and a bunch of smug millionaires and billionaires who are trousering most of the money.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby Arouet » 04 Dec 2013, 00:17

Just wanted to let you guys know that I've been finding this discussion interesting. Not quite sure what it has to do with anything but interesting none-the-less!
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Dec 2013, 00:42

Arouet wrote:Just wanted to let you guys know that I've been finding this discussion interesting. Not quite sure what it has to do with anything but interesting none-the-less!

Me too.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 04 Dec 2013, 05:16

justintime wrote:I think you are making the wrong comparisons. The US is ranked #1 in global fire power (GFP military ranking) Australia is ranked #23 some 8 ranks behind Indonesia which is ranked #15. That explains why Australia was spying on Indonesia (National Inferiority Complex). Why Tony Abbot refuses to apologize to Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono over the spying is rather baffling? Surely he must know Indonesia's military ranking.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

Justin, you slay me with your penetrating analyses. Despite showing an embarrassing lack of understanding of Anglosphere alliances and interconnections and south east Asian politics and history, resorting to Tea Party level forms of jingoism in lieu of a worthwhile argument, you may have touched on something there -- you have overlooked that you might need to add together Australia and the US's GFP scores against Indonesia if push ever came to shove. Especially since Australia has graciously allowed US Marines to set up an entire base in the north of the country near Indonesia for 'training purposes'.

You realise of course that Indonesian Presidents Sukarno and Sueharto were right wing, despotic crony capitalists who were propped up quite deliberately by the US and Australia in the Cold War as part of the 'dam against Communism' (as was Japan), turning a blind eye to their excesses and injustices in the hope of stopping 'the Domino Theory' from coming to pass. Australia has appeased Indonesia for many years on a range of unethical actions by Indonesia, including annexing East Timor and West Papua and brutalising the inhabitants. This is still going on today in West Papua, after Australia very reluctantly provided assistance in the East Timorese independence process. The East Timorese assisted Australia greatly in WWII against the Japanese, despite previous oppressive colonisation efforts by the Portuguese, for which thanks they got annexation by Indonesia with no protest from Australia.

Tony Abbott is just flexing his muscles here. He is not popular with the current crop of Indonesian leaders, but once they started leaning on him and playing an increasing number of diplomatic tricks, there came a point where he had to say 'no more'. Confusing that is his domestic promise to 'turn back the boats' full of refugees coming via Indonesia including getting tough with Indonesia using whatever international law he can to prevent boats from entering Australian territory. A boatful of refugees is worth $2M to the smugglers and a lot of that money ends up back in the Indonesian economy, and of course some of the local police and army are in on the scheme as a consequence, as well as the leaders realising it is a good export industry and source of foreign currency.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 04 Dec 2013, 11:37

justintime wrote:I agreed with you SydneyPSIder, both America and Australia participated in genocide. But America took steps not to revisit their past by becoming a superpower, whereas Australia succumbed to naivety falling being in military GFP ranking to Islamic countries like Indonesia surely a negligent act that can only boomerang (pardon the pun).

There is nothing in Islamic teachings that ban the consumption of pre-shagged meat except that they be washed and blessed. But Australia and NZ have overindulged themselves and caused low birth rated in countries where they exported pre-shagged victimized sheep on the unsuspecting public. This only reinforces the Islamic call to mistrust uncircumcised infidels.

It is only a stop gap solution resisting the strict sharia laws that demand the cutting off of hands and other limbs that are used in the defamation of moral codes. Imagine stealing a sheep and then shagging it and the consequences under Sharia Law. Voluntary circumcision and Halal (blessing of unholy meat) is a small price to pay or Tony Abbott apologizing to the Indonesians with promises that promiscuity in Australia is contained and prevalent only among sheep/shaggers.

hilarious.

You should work out GFP per capita for Australia, and you'll find it is up there. Indonesia has a population of some 250,000,000, Australia only has 22,000,000, i.e. under 1/10th of the Indonesian population on a much bigger landmass. Indonesia is often the notional enemy in Australian defence planning.

The US didn't 'decide' to become a superpower, it just became one by default. A large population on a large landmass with advanced technology and greater social mobility and cohesiveness than the divided countries of Europe. The earlier European superpowers were of course Britain, France, Germany, Spain, then the Austro-Hungarian empire, Ottoman empire, Russia, etc etc. Participation in WWI and WWII saw the US increasingly step into the role of world cop or the guy with the biggest stick. Both wars were initially really 1) European wars, and 2) Franco-German wars to be more precise. WW0 was the Franco-Prussian war of 1870.

Jokes about shagging sheep are made mostly about the Welsh and New Zealanders by the English and Australians, respectively.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 07 Dec 2013, 22:24

justintime wrote:The Australian military did not do too well in Afghanistan even though it is ranked 23 GFP against Afghanistan`s 48 GFP ranking and that was with help from 50 other countries which included US and UK. Now it appears Australia may stay beyond 2014 despite the withdrawal of NATO troops and the uncertainty of US troops remaining, to go at it alone. What is even more bizarre is what the Australian military could not achieve with 1500 troops, it has to accomplish with a reduced troop level of 400 troops past 2014. With such logic coming from the Australian defense department, Winston could whip the Australian military as well.

Troops may stay longer in Afghanistan, says incoming defence minister
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6720486210

hilarious

apparently the Australian troops were more popular in Afghanistan than other countries for at least appearing to mean well.

if you don't understand the pretexts behind the 'coalition of the willing' and the US pulling its allies into its expeditionary adventures you're better off not posting your deranged remarks. Oz is extremely unlikely to stay beyond US involvement, as they are only there to lend credibility to the US project. Why you think the US is really going to withdraw when there is a pipeline to be put in is beyond me, presumably that's just a piece of disinfo for local consumption.

Australian Bushmaster vehicles handle IEDs a lot better than Hummers, by the way, maybe you need to look at your casualty stats a bit more closely relative to force size.

Australia was attempting to do a few sweetheart deals with the new Afghani govt around trade, don't know what minerals they were seeking to trade however. A trillion dollars worth of lithium in the ground there.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby ProfWag » 07 Dec 2013, 23:09

Not that this will add anything to the conversation, but I worked side by side with the Australian military while deployed during the Iraq War and I can honestly say they were a great bunch of guys.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 08 Dec 2013, 13:37

Why are you so upset with Australians right now, justintime? Did you get your ass handed to you somewhere in a debate?
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 09 Dec 2013, 13:41

justintime wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:Why are you so upset with Australians right now, justintime? Did you get your ass handed to you somewhere in a debate?

You are taking all this too personally mate. Read the title of the OP "Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!" I am just showing the many ways Australians are already whupped. Starting with their Convict Ancestry to the Asian immigrants pointing to their bad Karma and why drop bears and kangaroos are possible reincarnations and finally their poor GFP world ranking in military power. The Australian military has participated in many wars in its 220 years history. But the only victory the country can be identified with is against the native Australians now called aborigines.

ah OK, good thing I'm not actually Australian myself, I emigrated from elsewhere, otherwise I might be offended or something on behalf of the others...

Anyway, I somewhat backed Winston on his intrepid incursion, but I don't think he chose good topics to debate with them.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 10 Dec 2013, 06:05

lol, are you some sort of alter ego for Winston who says the things he wants to but can't...

Hard for me to have a unique detectable persona when I've only lived here a few years, coming from a much more politically 'central' country. The most parochial people I've found tend to be in the US, from hillbillies to teapartiers. By the way, Australians travel overseas much more than Americans per capita, many Americans don't have a passport, etc etc, which explains how the crazy irrational and emotional politics of the Republicans is listened to when they would be laughed out of town in any other comparable country.

Even in Europe as a single connected landmass I've made a point to ask people in various countries I've visited if they've been out of their own country and a surprising number never have. Some people in London don't even know where the next suburb is after living in one spot all their lives.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 10 Dec 2013, 07:56

How can you have 'nostalgia' for an event that occurred 230 years ago? You can only have nostalgia for something that occurred within your living memory.

Most American settlers/colonists actually weren't particularly interested in seceding from Britain at the time, and thought of themselves as British. People like George Washington and others had to whip some into a frenzy. The only question is whether they were doing it out of greed and opportunism seeing a rich continent in front of them.

Australia is a 'new' country without much history or interesting old world architecture, so people like to travel.
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Re: Winston whips the Australian Skeptics in debate!

Postby SydneyPSIder » 10 Dec 2013, 12:39

justintime wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:How can you have 'nostalgia' for an event that occurred 230 years ago? You can only have nostalgia for something that occurred within your living memory.

Most American settlers/colonists actually weren't particularly interested in seceding from Britain at the time, and thought of themselves as British. People like George Washington and others had to whip some into a frenzy. The only question is whether they were doing it out of greed and opportunism seeing a rich continent in front of them.

Australia is a 'new' country without much history or interesting old world architecture, so people like to travel.

And the history that is available is not very interesting, so people like to travel.

sure. can't be helped, can it? it's a big empty continent which is 4/5 desert, and only 200 years of late colonial history and a low population.

whereas of course the American period predating that of genocide, legal slavery and witch burnings is far more interesting.

Noam Chomsky talks about the English colonial push as an aggregated cluster, the US, Australia, NZ, India, etc etc.

Update: Oh Jesus, I was just reminded of the existence of the Westboro Baptist Church, that enlightened American institution. What happened to the spelling of 'borough' over there, by the way?
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