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Incredible Story - Can you believe it?

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Incredible Story - Can you believe it?

Postby Alexander1304 » 13 Jul 2013, 02:22

Hello,
Yes, I posted this on brother-site Skeptico, but there may be persons who is here but not there,and may be interested in reading/replies
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The main character of the story is Natalia Bekhtereva, russian neuroscientist and psychologist:

Natalia Bekhtereva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now to the story:

The incredible impression was made by Vanga on academician Natalia Petrovna Bekhterev:
"... To Vanga I first had extremely critical attitude. My materialistically well-mannered reason was not shaken neither by books, nor by the stories of attestations of eyewitnesses.
Almost all scientists were silent, and those who decided on comments, agreed in opinion on existence of the staff of the informers making all "references" on each her visitor.
And to reach any conclusion, it was necessary to be convinced by myself who is that person. And now I know... There are genuine clairvoyants, with big reliability predicting the future, "seeing" not only past, but also the present hidden from the eyes ..."
(Science and religion. 1992 . No. 3. )

And how it is possible not to believe in phenomenal of Vanga if everything that the clairvoyant predicted to Natalia Petrovna, by her own words, came true?
After the first meeting N. P. Bekhterev's academician still many times visited Vanga in Petriç.
And once, when Natalia Petrovna (already the widow) once again arrived to the clairvoyant,Vanga tactfully mentioned :
— ... I know, Natasha that You suffered much... You worried much... And pain at the heart and at the soul didn't cease yet... And whether you want to see the dead of the husband? .
Natalia Petrovna, of course, wished (there were also feelings to the beloved husband, and professional interest of the scientist-physiologist and the scientist-psychologist).
Further events were developed as follows... About them Natalia Petrovna Bekhterev told.
But at first small explanation: after N. P. Bekhtereva's husband suddenly died (in the notes she calls him initials — I. I. ) in the apartment at Natalia Petrovna there lived close girlfriend Raisa Vasilyevna Volskaya(from now - Raisa) who witnessed all occurring events difficult to explain.
So, word to academician Natalia Petrovna Bekhtereva, former director of Institute of studying of a brain and mental activity.
"Further strange and unusual we met all together with R.V. If only I alone continued to meet strangenesses, I would think ,no - I would be sure that all this is a mirage of sick imagination — writes Bekhtereva. — One after another:
1 . I continued to go to business trips: to Moscow, abroad. And once, having returned from Moscow, we with Raisa heard steps of the person going before windows of a drawing room from right to left in the direction to a small case.
In space under a case the noise, being reminded noise of a big top was distributed, very loud, 5 — 10 seconds — and everything came to an end.
2 . I go to a bathroom to wash. R.V. remains in a drawing room. Distance between us 18 — 20 m. When I already left the bathroom, I heard steps, allegedly man's, moving to a bathroom. Steps reached a bathroom.
I, naturally, called Raisa. Steps began to be removed.
When I in 6 — 8 minutes left, the Raisa told me: "And why you left earlier? And why didn't answer me? " Also added that sat a back to steps, and had a strange feeling of difficulty to turn to "me". She tried to start talking to "me", but "I" didn't answer.
This history made on both of us very strong impression, impression of someone's presence.
By the way, inside of me long time remained feeling of presence someone from two passed away, in the apartment, especially distinct in the first seconds of awakening, then it disappeared but only when ceased to be found the "strange" phenomena...
But now...
3 . Behind a curtain at a window leaving in a yard garden, stands bank with water. I give behind it a hand, slightly removing a curtain, and absent-mindedly I look down. From my third floor in a yard garden of our house.
Having descended , directly on thawing snow there is strange dressed person and looking at my face eyes-to-eyes.
I know him too well, but it can't simply be. Never.
I went to the Spamalamadingdong where this minute there had to be Raisa and, having met her midway, I ask her to look in a bedroom window.
For the first time in my life I saw a face of the live person really white, as a cloth. It was the face of the Raisa running to me.
"Natalia Petrovna! Yes it I.I. there is standing ! He went to garage, you know, by his characteristic gait... Really you didn't recognize him?"
That's just the point that I recognized, but truly I didn't believe my eyes.
If all this happened to me only, as, for example, very bright — "prophetic" — a dream which isn't so similar to usual one... it would be possible to treat all this as a hallucination against my altered consciousness (would be because of reason). But what about Raisa? .
All this doesn't give in to the statistical analysis, but confidence in the reality of the phenomena for me is full. At least of those, where both of us separately heard or were seen by these "strange" phenomena.
Steps twice... I. I. on the street under a window. After all I not only didn't say the Raisa that saw I. I. but also at what to look, I didn't speak".
... And after this prophetic prediction of Vanga came true and Natalia Petrovna Bekhterev really saw the died husband, she, as the academician, was finally approved in opinion:
"The phenomenon of clairvoyant Vanga — immutable fact ... Though it is unknown reality".

Enjoy and let me know what you think!
Alexander1304
 
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 13 Jul 2013, 03:39

A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Jul 2013, 04:28

Since when have we decided that stories on this forum are not good reading?
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby Alexander1304 » 13 Jul 2013, 04:45

really? wrote:A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .

See what Ninja said.It is typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance to decide for all what is worth/not worth. If it is not interesting to You - then don't read. Other will find it interesting,especially in the light that the author was very well-known respected scientist,and she admitted that she herself would not believe shouldn't her best friend present there and saw as well?
Even if it is "second rate"(which is questionable) - I don't see how "second rate = NILL value"


"really?" You don't confused the forum?It is not Randi forum
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 13 Jul 2013, 04:59

NinjaPuppy wrote:Since when have we decided that stories on this forum are not good reading?


That's not the point he's making. He by using this story is attempting to prove something is true. That can't be done as far as I know.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby Alexander1304 » 13 Jul 2013, 05:05

really? wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:Since when have we decided that stories on this forum are not good reading?

That's not the point he's making. He by using this story is attempting to prove something is true. That can't be done as far as I know.

Buddy ,are You ok? Where in my OP I claim to prove something?
Of course, to experiencers it was proof.But my point was just to share this story ,whoever may find it interesting and worth thinking about. If You don't find it interesting /not worth to think about - doesn't mean that everyone should
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 13 Jul 2013, 05:25

really? wrote:A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .

Alexander1304 wrote:See what Ninja said.It is typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance to decide for all what is worth/not worth. If it is not interesting to You - then don't read. Other will find it interesting,especially in the light that the author was very well-known respected scientist,and she admitted that she herself would not believe shouldn't her best friend present there and saw as well?
Even if it is "second rate"(which is questionable) - I don't see how "second rate = NILL value"

"really?" You don't confused the forum?It is not Randi forum


I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.

I just told you in the previous post as has Kai on Skeptiko. But I'll repeat the answer. It's very difficult to prove and or falsify an anecdote. Eyewitness testimony isn't useful either because it also can't be proven. And it doesn't matter if she is a well respected scientist [argument from authority] because she is outside of her area of expertise.
You remind me of Anders Lindman and Maartenn100 of the JREF forum. A thousand people can point out repeatedly why they are wrong and neither of them see why.
It appears to me the one displaying some arrogance here is the one who won't consider they might have a error or two in way they think.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby Alexander1304 » 13 Jul 2013, 05:40

really? wrote:
really? wrote:A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .

Alexander1304 wrote:See what Ninja said.It is typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance to decide for all what is worth/not worth. If it is not interesting to You - then don't read. Other will find it interesting,especially in the light that the author was very well-known respected scientist,and she admitted that she herself would not believe shouldn't her best friend present there and saw as well?
Even if it is "second rate"(which is questionable) - I don't see how "second rate = NILL value"

"really?" You don't confused the forum?It is not Randi forum


I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.

I just told you in the previous post as has Kai on Skeptiko. But I'll repeat the answer. It's very difficult to prove and or falsify an anecdote. Eyewitness testimony isn't useful either because it also can't be proven. And it doesn't matter if she is a well respected scientist [argument from authority] because she is outside of her area of expertise.
You remind me of Anders Lindman and Maartenn100 of the JREF forum. A thousand people can point out repeatedly why they are wrong and neither of them see why.
It appears to me the one displaying some arrogance here is the one who won't consider they might have a error or two in way they think.

You are again making things up...Where I claimed to prove the anecdote? But who said that anecdotes are not worthy read/worthy of thinking about. A lot of things in life are anecdotal - so what? Experience is experience and happening is happening. My point was simply to suggest the story, and then it is up to the reader to make whatever he will.
So ,sorry,but arrogance is Yours.Just because You dismiss anecdotes doesn't mean everybode else should.Typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance.
By the way,even Kastenbaum in his second book at the end concluded about existence ESP and Cosmic Consiousness(after careful consideration) ,because(for him) evidence was of such strength,that he couldn't deny..Even him
Morover,Your friend Doomsayer kind of sick - he found my e-mail and e-mailed me why I am wrong about evaluation of Kastenbaum book.Normal healthy person would not do
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 13 Jul 2013, 09:46

really? wrote:A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .

Alexander1304 wrote:See what Ninja said.It is typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance to decide for all what is worth/not worth. If it is not interesting to You - then don't read. Other will find it interesting,especially in the light that the author was very well-known respected scientist,and she admitted that she herself would not believe shouldn't her best friend present there and saw as well?
Even if it is "second rate"(which is questionable) - I don't see how "second rate = NILL value"

"really?" You don't confused the forum?It is not Randi forum


really? wrote:I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.


really? wrote:I just told you in the previous post as has Kai on Skeptiko. But I'll repeat the answer. It's very difficult to prove and or falsify an anecdote. Eyewitness testimony isn't useful either because it also can't be proven. And it doesn't matter if she is a well respected scientist [argument from authority] because she is outside of her area of expertise.
You remind me of Anders Lindman and Maartenn100 of the JREF forum. A thousand people can point out repeatedly why they are wrong and neither of them see why.
It appears to me the one displaying some arrogance here is the one who won't consider they might have a error or two in way they think.

Alexander1304 wrote:You are again making things up...Where I claimed to prove the anecdote?

It's the implication. You made no stated caveat that this is just a story for some other purpose such as entertainment. By posting such a thing on a paranormal forum by someone that believes in the paranormal [you in this case] it's implicit there is a paranormal cause. But maybe I am wrong. Are you suggesting at all there could be a prosaic explanation behind the story?
Alexander1304 wrote: But who said that anecdotes are not worthy read/worthy of thinking about. A lot of things in life are anecdotal - so what?

really? wrote:But if you want to prove something to the point of be incontrovertible then you can't rely upon anecdotal information.
I haven't said they aren't worth reading or thinking about. I did say they can't be used as evidence because it's difficult to prove them or falsify them. Anecdotes are evidence, but evidence of what?

Alexander1304 wrote:Experience is experience and happening is happening. My point was simply to suggest the story, and then it is up to the reader to make whatever he will.

really? wrote:Many people do just that. But usually they are wrong when they assume a paranormal cause because they don't have the full story behind the anecdote.


Alexander1304 wrote:alwaysSo ,sorry,but arrogance is Yours.Just because You dismiss anecdotes doesn't mean everybode else should.Typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance.

Stop whining about what us mean ol' skeptics won't do and show some facts.
Alexander1304 wrote:alwaysBy the way,even Kastenbaum in his second book at the end concluded about existence ESP and Cosmic Consiousness(after careful consideration) ,because(for him) evidence was of such strength,that he couldn't deny..Even him

So that's your and his opinion. And once again you've not presented any facts
Alexander1304 wrote:Morover,Your friend Doomsayer kind of sick - he found my e-mail and e-mailed me why I am wrong about evaluation of Kastenbaum book.Normal healthy person would not do

He's not my friend in any overt or nuanced sense of the word.

I see these two questions have gone unanswered. Just an observation.
I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby Alexander1304 » 13 Jul 2013, 11:56

really? wrote:
really? wrote:A nice story with no way to confirm it or falsify it. Anecdotal stories are second rate. The one thing incredible about this, is people don't learn this isn't the type of stuff worthy of posting for proving as being factual .

Alexander1304 wrote:See what Ninja said.It is typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance to decide for all what is worth/not worth. If it is not interesting to You - then don't read. Other will find it interesting,especially in the light that the author was very well-known respected scientist,and she admitted that she herself would not believe shouldn't her best friend present there and saw as well?
Even if it is "second rate"(which is questionable) - I don't see how "second rate = NILL value"

"really?" You don't confused the forum?It is not Randi forum


really? wrote:I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.


really? wrote:I just told you in the previous post as has Kai on Skeptiko. But I'll repeat the answer. It's very difficult to prove and or falsify an anecdote. Eyewitness testimony isn't useful either because it also can't be proven. And it doesn't matter if she is a well respected scientist [argument from authority] because she is outside of her area of expertise.
You remind me of Anders Lindman and Maartenn100 of the JREF forum. A thousand people can point out repeatedly why they are wrong and neither of them see why.
It appears to me the one displaying some arrogance here is the one who won't consider they might have a error or two in way they think.

Alexander1304 wrote:You are again making things up...Where I claimed to prove the anecdote?

It's the implication. You made no stated caveat that this is just a story for some other purpose such as entertainment.

I stated that this is interesting story for personal evaluation. Where I stated that is supposed to prove anything? It is up to each reader decide. Some may give it a chance to be true - do You have any problems with that?

By posting such a thing on a paranormal forum by someone that believes in the paranormal [you in this case] it's implicit there is a paranormal cause. But maybe I am wrong. Are you suggesting at all there could be a prosaic explanation behind the story?

This is paranormal site,is in it? You are not going to dictate me what I should or shouldn't post here, are You?Otherwise I repeate,You confused the forum,it is not JREF.
I am suggesting,that there may be prosaic explanation,but personally I give it a fair chance to be true. Any problems with that? I am not imposing it on anybody,neither You should impose Yours on me

Alexander1304 wrote: But who said that anecdotes are not worthy read/worthy of thinking about. A lot of things in life are anecdotal - so what?

really? wrote:But if you want to prove something to the point of be incontrovertible then you can't rely upon anecdotal information.
I haven't said they aren't worth reading or thinking about. I did say they can't be used as evidence because it's difficult to prove them or falsify them. Anecdotes are evidence, but evidence of what?

Alexander1304 wrote:Experience is experience and happening is happening. My point was simply to suggest the story, and then it is up to the reader to make whatever he will.

really? wrote:Many people do just that. But usually they are wrong when they assume a paranormal cause because they don't have the full story behind the anecdote.


Alexander1304 wrote:alwaysSo ,sorry,but arrogance is Yours.Just because You dismiss anecdotes doesn't mean everybode else should.Typical pseudo-skeptical arrogance.

Stop whining about what us mean ol' skeptics won't do and show some facts

Are You kidding? I presented story,and stated from the beginning, for any personal evaluation .About "facts" we'll talk later

Alexander1304 wrote:alwaysBy the way,even Kastenbaum in his second book at the end concluded about existence ESP and Cosmic Consiousness(after careful consideration) ,because(for him) evidence was of such strength,that he couldn't deny..Even him

So that's your and his opinion. And once again you've not presented any facts

You are making up stuff again.Where is "my" of opinion here if I am talking about his book. And I stated,he moved from total skeptic,to accept ESP and Cosmic Consciousness.He was simpky forced to. You are not expecting me to paste here the whole chapter from the book,are You? The book called: "Is There Life After Death: Evaluation the Latest Evidence",Robert Kastenbaum. There You will have all his reasons for that, and he doen't look like happy for accepting that.But he was forced to - read for Yourself.

Alexander1304 wrote:Morover,Your friend Doomsayer kind of sick - he found my e-mail and e-mailed me why I am wrong about evaluation of Kastenbaum book.Normal healthy person would not do

He's not my friend in any overt or nuanced sense of the word.

It was allegoric.You mentioned him as making worthwhile points on skeptico,but e-mailed me like paranoic.

I am sorry I deleted his e-mail after reading, it would be good to post it on Skeptico - now THAT would be really for entertaining

I see these two questions have gone unanswered. Just an observation.

I'll ask you then, what's the worth of this story?

I told You - nice story for personal evaluation.Whatever anybody will take - it is up to him.Are You having problem that some may give it chance to be true,ot at least find it interesting?Then, who are You to impose Your views on others?Again,it is nor JREF,You got it?

Show a psi specific story proving psi related happenings have been proven to be true.

Above mentioned book will be a good start. There You will find not story, but stories. Remember, author started as full-blown skeptic but forced to accept some psychic phenomena.Ironically ,he desperately clinged to ESP and the like to explain away the alledged evidence for survival
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 13 Jul 2013, 21:41

Alexander1304 wrote:Above mentioned book will be a good start. There You will find not story, but stories. Remember, author started as full-blown skeptic but forced to accept some psychic phenomena.Ironically ,he desperately clinged to ESP and the like to explain away the alledged evidence for survival


Well, good for him, but this book doesn't change a thing I've said.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Jul 2013, 01:24

really? wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:Since when have we decided that stories on this forum are not good reading?


That's not the point he's making. He by using this story is attempting to prove something is true. That can't be done as far as I know.

Is it not true that this is a story? And it's true that it is relative to the forum and the topic at hand? So don't go harshin' my mellow. ;)
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby Alexander1304 » 14 Jul 2013, 02:27

really? wrote:
Alexander1304 wrote:Above mentioned book will be a good start. There You will find not story, but stories. Remember, author started as full-blown skeptic but forced to accept some psychic phenomena.Ironically ,he desperately clinged to ESP and the like to explain away the alledged evidence for survival


Well, good for him

Of course it is good,for him,he ,at least,made extensive research before coming to concusion,unlike You,how engage in simple "denilism"
but this book doesn't change a thing I've said.

Throwing empty statement,mere assertion(and basesless) and close-mindness.Also typical for the person on Skeptico, whom You defend.Read the book first before saying that.
Oh,I see: "Don't confuse me with the facts,my mind is already made up!"
And don't begin with: "give me a facts" - read the book.At least this one.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 14 Jul 2013, 04:44

NinjaPuppy wrote:
really? wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:Since when have we decided that stories on this forum are not good reading?


That's not the point he's making. He by using this story is attempting to prove something is true. That can't be done as far as I know.

Is it not true that this is a story? And it's true that it is relative to the forum and the topic at hand? So don't go harshin' my mellow. ;)


Like I've said, I ain't got nothin against stories, so post all you want, but they should not be used to alone to prove something is true.
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Re: Incredible Story - could You believe

Postby really? » 14 Jul 2013, 04:56

Alexander1304 wrote:
really? wrote:
Alexander1304 wrote:Above mentioned book will be a good start. There You will find not story, but stories. Remember, author started as full-blown skeptic but forced to accept some psychic phenomena.Ironically ,he desperately clinged to ESP and the like to explain away the alledged evidence for survival


Well, good for him

Of course it is good,for him,he ,at least,made extensive research before coming to concusion,unlike You,how engage in simple "denilism"
but this book doesn't change a thing I've said.

Throwing empty statement,mere assertion(and basesless) and close-mindness.Also typical for the person on Skeptico, whom You defend.Read the book first before saying that.
Oh,I see: "Don't confuse me with the facts,my mind is already made up!"
And don't begin with: "give me a facts" - read the book.At least this one.


Maybe I need to explain why stories aren't all that useful.
I can think of three reasons why. Here goes.
1. You can't go back in time to observe what actually took place.
2. You can't do a forensic CSI type of investigation because there's never any evidence left over.
3. Interviewing the witnesses doesn't help either because it's after the incident. People will remember the incident inaccurately and will remember it based upon what they think they experienced.
Now has this made any impression upon you?
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