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Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 04:59

23 is right. This is not something that can be done quickly or easily. It's giving me a headache just trying to pick a subject to try it with. Right there is proof for me that I've got some mental "thingy" that I have to overcome before I can go any further.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 20 Dec 2012, 05:00

The23rdman wrote:Jeez, you're a piece of work. I've already said I worded the op badly. ;)


But then I'm not sure what you mean then? You say you worded it badly but not how you would have worded it? Then Ninja says to watch a video and just react with "WOW" which is also in line with your OP.

I suggested an exercise where you argue an issue from the other side, trying to put forward their best arguments. You didn't like that idea. So I'm not sure what you're suggesting to do in this exercise? :cry:
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 05:13

I typed a long reply on my phone and lost it. Instead of risking throwing it down the loo I'll respond tomorrow.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby really? » 20 Dec 2012, 05:47

The23rdman wrote:You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.



What you are saying can be expressed this way. If you don't understanding your opponent's argument you don't fully understand your own. I understand your point and I feel such a point as you've made is better suited to positions which are abstract and subjective in nature In contrast what most skeptical people deal with. Most of what skeptics deal with concerns what is known to be true versus what might be true and in some cases what is blatantly false but posing with a degree of respectability.
Actually we do understand the mind of a CT'er. And for matter the mindset that allows people to believe other things. We and me don't come at these topics without any knowledge of why beliefs are defended sometimes to the absurd.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 20 Dec 2012, 19:58

really? wrote:We've tried doing that without success

I don't think you've achieved that in a single place. There is very little 'science' being posted here. Can you bring up a single example that actually goes somewhere, rather than just nit-picking about semantics or raising spurious objections? I can't recall seeing one instance yet. I very clearly don't blindly support things like astrology Pyramid Power The Mars Face Healing Energy reptilian overlords or dowsing, although I may be interested in the science of determining if there's anything behind dowsing or psychic healing through appropriate double blind trials and similar scientific methods of investigation. (Note: not Randi circus-style attempts at poor scientific methodology and ridiculing deluded people.) Interestingly, Jesse Ventura is doubtful about the things I'm doubtful about (David Icke, reptilian overlords, and other near impossibilities), and quizzical of the 9/11 and JFK official accounts.

really? wrote:You need to be reminded it has been you that consistently uses the word pseudosceptic epithetically .

But it's completely appropriate on all the evidence. You don't know the extremes of behaviour I'm talking about, clearly.

really? wrote:Family and friends love you and care about your feelings, therefore, they will tell you things that aren't true.

well, thanks for the vote of confidence, but they offer that up completely unsolicited, as I'm analytical and truthful by nature. Hence my mistrust of the official 9/11 and Apollo accounts.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby really? » 20 Dec 2012, 23:10

really? wrote:We've tried doing that without success

SydneyPSIder wrote:I don't think you've achieved that in a single place. There is very little 'science' being posted here. Can you bring up a single example that actually goes somewhere, rather than just nit-picking about semantics or raising spurious objections? I can't recall seeing one instance yet. I very clearly don't blindly support things like astrology Pyramid Power The Mars Face Healing Energy reptilian overlords or dowsing, although I may be interested in the science of determining if there's anything behind dowsing or psychic healing through appropriate double blind trials and similar scientific methods of investigation. (Note: not Randi circus-style attempts at poor scientific methodology and ridiculing deluded people.) Interestingly, Jesse Ventura is doubtful about the things I'm doubtful about (David Icke, reptilian overlords, and other near impossibilities), and quizzical of the 9/11 and JFK official accounts.

I didn't say you did nor imply you believe any of those things listed.
There no nit picking through semantics. I don't know where you got that from.
You bring science. Are you saying you are qualified to analyze photos and competent in lunar geology ? Yes or No ?

really? wrote:You need to be reminded it has been you that consistently uses the word pseudosceptic epithetically .

SydneyPSIder wrote:But it's completely appropriate on all the evidence. You don't know the extremes of behaviour I'm talking about, clearly.


really? wrote:Family and friends love you and care about your feelings, therefore, they will tell you things that aren't true.

SydneyPSIder wrote:well, thanks for the vote of confidence, but they offer that up completely unsolicited, as I'm analytical and truthful by nature. Hence my mistrust of the official 9/11 and Apollo accounts.

Have you ever watched American Idol. Family members frequently tell those would be contestants that can't sing they can.
Your mistrust has little to to with being analytical regarding 9/11 and Apollo missions. You are a textbook example of the ct mindset.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 23:15

really? wrote:
The23rdman wrote:You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.



What you are saying can be expressed this way. If you don't understanding your opponent's argument you don't fully understand your own. I understand your point and I feel such a point as you've made is better suited to positions which are abstract and subjective in nature In contrast what most skeptical people deal with. Most of what skeptics deal with concerns what is known to be true versus what might be true and in some cases what is blatantly false but posing with a degree of respectability.
Actually we do understand the mind of a CT'er. And for matter the mindset that allows people to believe other things. We and me don't come at these topics without any knowledge of why beliefs are defended sometimes to the absurd.


You may be correct that this exercise wont work effectively here. It is obvious that everyone considers themselves a skeptic anyway.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 21 Dec 2012, 01:20

What's wrong with the exercise of making the argument from the other side?
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 21 Dec 2012, 02:33

Arouet wrote:What's wrong with the exercise of making the argument from the other side?


Nothing wrong with it at all, but the difference between the two is like the difference between reading War and Peace and finding a quote from it on the tinterweb. . :)
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 21 Dec 2012, 02:37

The23rdman wrote:
Arouet wrote:What's wrong with the exercise of making the argument from the other side?


Nothing wrong with it at all, but the difference between the two is like the difference between reading War and Peace and finding a quote from it on the tinterweb. . :)


Well, then I really think I must not get where you are coming from on this. How does my suggestion accomplish a radically different goal from yours?

Maybe it would help if you described more particularly how it would work in practice? What would I do, for example, in carrying out this exercise?
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2012, 02:51

Arouet wrote:Maybe it would help if you described more particularly how it would work in practice? What would I do, for example, in carrying out this exercise?

If I can understand exactly what 23 is saying, it is beyond my comprehension why you can't. :? Yes, his OP could have been worded differently but he made up for that in following posts.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 21 Dec 2012, 02:53

I have tried. Something's just not clicking for me here! :(
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2012, 03:00

His way:
23 wrote:I would quite literally spend time (usually a couple of weeks, but it depended how entrenched I was) being somebody else. How it would work around here would be for the skeptics to spend some time really diving into all the YouTube and CT websites without the critical thinking they think they use now. You must BELIEVE and approach everything with a WOW and OMG attitude. The same for the CT's. You must question everything you read hyper critically from the perspective of one who automatically suspects BS or a hidden agenda.

Your way:
Arouet wrote:Your point is well taken (that we should try and approach these issues from the other side)...But rather than frame it in terms of one side being critical and the other not, over there we framed it as: make the best arguments for the other side of the debate.

Your reason:
Arouet wrote:That's not going to be satisfying for a lot of proponents because for many of them their position is that the non-believers haven't done the necessary research to make an informed opinion - or have so much cognitive dissonance in reading that material that they refuse to accept what they should.

His reason:
You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2012, 03:04

It's not about just trying some exercise and getting through it and see how well you did. It's actually becoming that type of person (I guess a Woo would be the most common term). You can narrow it down to CTer or whatever, that's up to you.

23 said, it's like method acting. Actors live, sleep, eat and breathe the person they will be portraying to understand them. They really get into the head of that person.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 21 Dec 2012, 03:10

I'm glad somebody gets it. :)
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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