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Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 19 Dec 2012, 23:55

The23rdman wrote:I see what you are saying and I now understand why it wont work. This exercise takes a remarkable amount of self awareness to even entertain. Perhaps I should frame it differently... Actually, I can see that it really is pointless. Neddermind.

It's not pointless actually. I love the idea as it seems that I would find out more about myself that I probably refuse to recognize. I think that I can create a topic here that will only be available to a certain "group" of members. If someone wants in, all they have to do is ask and then of course..... behave as per the game rules. Otherwise, I'll toss 'em back to the "General Membership" pool.

I'll need a bit of time to smack my brain against the Admin Panel to see if we even have that sort of thing on this old format but I'm willing to take the time if anyone else is.

PS-

really? - Stop picking on believers or Santa is going to give you coal in your stocking.

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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 20 Dec 2012, 00:02

really? wrote:
The23rdman wrote:I can see that if everyone here thinks they are a true skeptic then it'll be pointless.


Here's the questions your reply elicits. Should skeptics not form opinions on certain paranormal or supernatural beliefs ? Should we *endlessly examine with an open mind certain paranormal and supernatural beliefs ? That's how we look at claims.
Here are some examples:
astrology
Pyramid Power
The Mars Face
Healing energy
reptilian overlords
dowsing

* Reexamining is necessary because there's always a younger generation needing to learn, but not with open minds


That's not going to be satisfying for a lot of proponents because for many of them their position is that the non-believers haven't done the necessary research to make an informed opinion - or have so much cognitive dissonance in reading that material that they refuse to accept what they should.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 00:04

Arouet wrote:That's not going to be satisfying for a lot of proponents because for many of them their position is that the non-believers haven't done the necessary research to make an informed opinion - or have so much cognitive dissonance in reading that material that they refuse to accept what they should.

We could TRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY couldn't we???
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 00:54

The exercise can be quite simple. Take a subject you have taken a stance on and flip it in your mind. Then you go find all the evidence you can to back that up (however spurious or tenuous) and really believe in what you are finding. I can assure you that you cannot do this effectively in a few hours... actually, that may not be true, but I certainly couldn't.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 00:56

really? wrote:
The23rdman wrote:I can see that if everyone here thinks they are a true skeptic then it'll be pointless.


Here's the questions your reply elicits. Should skeptics not form opinions on certain paranormal or supernatural beliefs ? Should we *endlessly examine with an open mind certain paranormal and supernatural beliefs ? That's how we look at claims.
Here are some examples:
astrology
Pyramid Power
The Mars Face
Healing energy
reptilian overlords
dowsing

* Reexamining is necessary because there's always a younger generation needing to learn, but not with open minds


Actually, some of those are great examples for someone with your mindset to try out. Why? Because there are a lot of people who believe wholeheartedly in them and will back it up with what they consider to be reasoned arguments and evidence. I would take one that really bugs you and use that.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 20 Dec 2012, 03:21

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Arouet wrote:That's not going to be satisfying for a lot of proponents because for many of them their position is that the non-believers haven't done the necessary research to make an informed opinion - or have so much cognitive dissonance in reading that material that they refuse to accept what they should.

We could TRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY couldn't we???


I'm in favour of it in the form I suggested- that is, taking the time to try and set out the other side's arguments in a serious way - ie: in a good light, not just trying to make them look ridiculous.

I don't know what I gain from trying to turn off my analytical abilities and just accept whatever I read - and frankly, I'm not sure its a useful exercise because I don't actually think proponents actually do that. Actually, I'm not sure its even possible. i don't think we choose our beliefs.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 04:04

You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.

There is a Zen koan about this very thing...

A monk having failed to achieve "enlightenment" (brain-change) through the normal Zen methods, was told by his teacher to think of nothing but an ox. Day after day after day, the monk thought of the ox, meditated on the ox. Finally, one day, the teacher came to the monk's cell and said, "Come out here -- I want to talk to you."

"I can't get out," the monk said. "My horns won't fit through the door.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 04:15

The23rdman wrote:You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.

There is a Zen koan about this very thing...

A monk having failed to achieve "enlightenment" (brain-change) through the normal Zen methods, was told by his teacher to think of nothing but an ox. Day after day after day, the monk thought of the ox, meditated on the ox. Finally, one day, the teacher came to the monk's cell and said, "Come out here -- I want to talk to you."

"I can't get out," the monk said. "My horns won't fit through the door.


That is EXCELLENT.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 04:21

Arouet wrote:I'm in favour of it in the form I suggested- that is, taking the time to try and set out the other side's arguments in a serious way - ie: in a good light, not just trying to make them look ridiculous.

But isn't that how we actually see each other???

Arouet wrote:I don't know what I gain from trying to turn off my analytical abilities and just accept whatever I read - and frankly, I'm not sure its a useful exercise because I don't actually think proponents actually do that. Actually, I'm not sure its even possible. i don't think we choose our beliefs.

Who accepts WHATEVER they read? No, no one does that. Just reverse it.
Arouet wrote:Actually, I'm not sure its even possible. i don't think we choose our beliefs.

I agree it may not be possible.... for some of us. :lol: We don't choose our beliefs, they're crammed down our throats until we believe them.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 20 Dec 2012, 04:25

The23rdman wrote:You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.


Well conspiracies really aren't my thing (The moon landing one is the first I've dipped my toe in) but I do read some of those threads and there's not a CTr that I know who would say that they don't use critical thinking and just say wow and believe whatever they read. In fact, they would say the opposite: that they are the one's who are doing the critical thinking and the skeptic is the one who is saying wow and just swallowing the government line.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 04:28

Arouet wrote:
The23rdman wrote:You're missing the point. To understand the charactersitics of a CTist you have to become one. You are seeing this from your analytical left-brain approach in much the same way as you tried to solve the logistic problems with reincarnation in a conversation with Craig (I've been lurking). The only way to understand the value of an exercise like this is to practice it. It will have no value approaching it the way you suggest.


Well conspiracies really aren't my thing (The moon landing one is the first I've dipped my toe in) but I do read some of those threads and there's not a CTr that I know who would say that they don't use critical thinking and just say wow and believe whatever they read. In fact, they would say the opposite: that they are the one's who are doing the critical thinking and the skeptic is the one who is saying wow and just swallowing the government line.

Do you see what I'm getting at?


I absolutely do and admitted as much earlier in our conversation. I could have worded the OP much better for sure.

You don't have to do the exercise - that's your choice. I guess it is a form of method acting...

The other way to look at it is that I have heard that the only way to understand a culture properly is to learn their language as the language is a big part of the reality tunnel they collectively create.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 04:34

23 wrote:I guess it is a form of method acting...

Pretty much.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 04:40

Arouet - All you have to do is go to YouTube and find something... anything and then post the vid here, say "WOW" and abandon the thread. What can I tell you, it's a start. From there you can begin to see how it feels if any negative commentary comes along. Perhaps say that for one day, you'll only read and respond enthusiastically to topics that make you cringe. That might get your juices flowing as to how something like this can jumpstart the proper thought process.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby Arouet » 20 Dec 2012, 04:42

The23rdman wrote:You don't have to do the exercise - that's your choice. I guess it is a form of method acting...


Oh, I mean, I could act like I just accepted things and said wow. But I'm suggesting that you've put up a bit of a straw man here. The people you are talking about don't believe they are doing that. So if you want to get in their heads you won't do it by just acting like you believe everything you hear.

In the case of conspiracy theorists, you need to take the position of a person who is highly distrustful of government. Rather than just accept whatever they hear without research, these are often people who will spend countless hours on research. They will anomaly hunt, take any inconsistency as evidence of deception rather than incompetence. They will hyper focus on small details. They will devour any source they can find on the topic. They'll dismiss anything by an official source as not credible (unless of course the official version supports their point.).

What they won't do, though, is just say WOW, I believe! They'll say they came to their beliefs through painstaking research and critical thought.
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Re: Is Anyone Prepared to Try a Little Exercise?

Postby The23rdman » 20 Dec 2012, 04:52

Jeez, you're a piece of work. I've already said I worded the op badly. ;)

Yes, you would have to do what you said. That is why it cannot be done on a few hours. It requires really digging deeply and changing your world view for a while. The point is that after a period of tome you start to experience the world differently and realise the hypnotic state we spend most of our lives in. What we see with our eyes open and closed is the same - our minds programs in operation.
If you think you know what's going on you're probably full of shit - Robert Anton Wilson
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