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Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 05:02

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Alexander1304 wrote:But there ARE books of that period and earlier thar are quoted to up-to- date. I believe good books/ideas stand test of time. C.Ducasse book was of 1961, C.D Broad of 1962. And the most famous anti-survival book of E.Dodds "Why I do not believe in survival" is dated to 1934 and quoted in contemporary books a lot, in both A.Gauld and S.Braude

I'd assume it's due to popular belief and any follow up works by the authors. Good writing does stand the test of time but the popularity of the subject matter ebbs and flows.

The other book that you mentioned by Alan Gauld seems very similar, so maybe Dommeyer's book was a simple cash in for him on something that might pay a few bills.

If by "popularity" You mean ESP,then I'd say it is VERY popular today int parapsychology,though attacked endlessly by randis/shermers.I'd say that popularity of ESP in 60s was very high due to J.Rhine's work. So,no, I'd say good book on Survival/ESP would not be unnoticed. But perhaps the main point here should be that it is not important that it was written by Dommeyer or someon else. They are all typical ESP arguments, no matter who is the author.The reast just the matter of preference
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 05:12

Alexander1304 wrote:If by "popularity" You mean ESP,then I'd say it is VERY popular today int parapsychology,though attacked endlessly by randis/shermers.

Agree. I seem to be seeing more "Mediums" floating around on TV lately.

Alexander1304 wrote:I'd say that popularity of ESP in 60s was very high due to J.Rhine's work. So,no, I'd say good book on Survival/ESP would not be unnoticed. But perhaps the main point here should be that it is not important that it was written by Dommeyer or someon else. They are all typical ESP arguments, no matter who is the author.The reast just the matter of preference

I know nothing of J. Rhine's work but I know Kreskin, Geller, Dixon and a slew of others who hit television way back when. Between James Randi and Johnny Carson, their distaste for this type of thing probably made them more famous.
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 05:24

Well,F.C.Dommeyer definetely had nothing to do with TV shows. And You are not familiar with J.Rhine's works? It was the major work on parapsychology by then!And Robert Almeder DOES mention F.C.Dommeyer's book in his "Death and the Personal Survival", so it is not the case that his book went unnoticed, he was not TV man, but philosopher and parapsycology researcher.
But again - no treatment of "drop-ins", ant the supposition that skills can be acquired by ESP from living is beyond me.Also C.Carter rightly says - how is that possible to acquire data from some books,objects and then impersonify it into the "spirit"?
Also,the book is definetely on-sided,unlike C.D.Broad,A.Gauld and S.Braude. "survival hypothesis"is all bad,and "esp" hypothesis is all good,without any critical approach to esp hypothesis
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 06:27

Alexander1304 wrote:Well,F.C.Dommeyer definetely had nothing to do with TV shows. And You are not familiar with J.Rhine's works? It was the major work on parapsychology by then!

I had never heard the word "parapsychology" until a few years ago and only heard of Rhine on this forum. ESP, mediumship and spirits are my favorite paranormal topics but what I've learned all these years was from personal experience and knowing like minded people.

Alexander1304 wrote:But again - no treatment of "drop-ins", ant the supposition that skills can be acquired by ESP from living is beyond me.

Can you give me your definition of "drop-ins"?

Alexander1304 wrote:Also C.Carter rightly says - how is that possible to acquire data from some books,objects and then impersonify it into the "spirit"?
Also,the book is definetely on-sided,unlike C.D.Broad,A.Gauld and S.Braude. "survival hypothesis"is all bad,and "esp" hypothesis is all good,without any critical approach to esp hypothesis

I plan to purchase Gauld's book and read that one but I'm sure that it's more than 76 pages and will take me some time to read it.

What are your personal thoughts on ESP vs. The Survival Hypothesis?
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 06:43

I give You re-print of Stephen Braude's article about "drop-ins" from his 'Immortal Remains':

http://www.survivalafterdeath.info/arti ... rop-in.htm

Let me know if You succeeded to open it, it doesn't open on every computer

"What are your personal thoughts on ESP vs. The Survival Hypothesis?"

That's the toughest question to be asked. For example,in one book,several authors discussed this topic and most of them stated that whatever survives is or the "pure consciousness" or kinf of "filed", not "person". But even without making any final conclusions,I'd best formulate my position this way: there SEEM to be cases that any NORMAL means cannot be applied(certain types of apparitions,some rcase suggestive of eincarnation ,and some cases of mediumship. and ,to narrow it: there SEEM to be cases where ESP or merely survival of "field" is inadequate to explain the evidence.

I can suggest You one article by Scott Rogo, and just now I got something extremely baffling for the case of survival,by 1908(by extremely skeptical magician)
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 06:43

I give You re-print of Stephen Braude's article about "drop-ins" from his 'Immortal Remains':

http://www.survivalafterdeath.info/arti ... rop-in.htm

Let me know if You succeeded to open it, it doesn't open on every computer

"What are your personal thoughts on ESP vs. The Survival Hypothesis?"

That's the toughest question to be asked. For example,in one book,several authors discussed this topic and most of them stated that whatever survives is or the "pure consciousness" or kinf of "filed", not "person". But even without making any final conclusions,I'd best formulate my position this way: there SEEM to be cases that any NORMAL means cannot be applied(certain types of apparitions,some rcase suggestive of eincarnation ,and some cases of mediumship. and ,to narrow it: there SEEM to be cases where ESP or merely survival of "field" is inadequate to explain the evidence.

I can suggest You one article by Scott Rogo, and just now I got something extremely baffling for the case of survival,by 1908(by extremely skeptical magician)
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 08:15

It opened with no problem and it was another interesting read. Thank you.

So a "drop-in" is someone/thing that the Medium doesn't know or didn't conjure up or is not their 'regular' spirit contact. Like a door to door salesman or the Jehova Witnesses in real life.

I do have some thoughts/opinions on the different situations regarding Mediums and their spirit communications. I'd like to copy and paste from the articles and put my $.02 in that way rather than try to paraphrase someone's writing. I'll have to go back and find it first.... give me a few minutes.
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 08:32

I'd say "drop-in" it is when communicator was initiated by the deceased,not by medium/sitters, kind of intrusion.
I wait for Your $.02, I'll stay here for another 30 mins...
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Dec 2012, 08:51

(3) the survival hypothesis, i.e., that mediums are actually in communication with the dis-carnate minds of persons who formerly lived on earth;

(4) the hypothesis that ESP is able to explain all the "spirit-communication" data associated with mediumistic activity; that there are no discarnate minds; that the phenomena are created by human beings in ways which even their creators do not understand.


Keeping with the possibility theme of this book, why is it not possible that there can be some sort of atmospheric interference with a discarnate mind from time to time? Like a bad cell phone connection. Not to mention spirits having better things to do and Mediums having a bad day.

Let's start with the Medium. We know for a fact that all Mediums are human beings and we know that human beings can have good days and bad days. Now on to the discarnate minds.... they're suspected to have been human beings (at least in example 3) and if you can have a good or bad day while alive, why not once the body is gone? Some days we are focused and some days we can't get our act together no matter how hard we set our mind to it.
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby Alexander1304 » 20 Dec 2012, 08:55

This is interesting!
Lets continue tomorrow,gotta go now
Cheers!
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Re: Anti-survival/pro-ESP book of 1965

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2012, 22:35

I finished up reading "The Watseka Wonder" by E.W. Stevens (1878). It's a pretty amazing story and even I have a hard time believing many of the claims made. It certainly would provide proof of the Survival Hypothesis if it could be verified.

Let me know when you'll have some time to continue our original discussion. I've been making some notes.
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