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Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with Vid

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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby NinjaPuppy » 07 Mar 2011, 19:28

really? wrote:Do you know I've heard this argument for over 30 years, but can you provide one case where a person claiming psychic abilities provided direct evidence that lead to solving the crime.

I know of one case where a psychic was directly involved in finding the body of a lost, missing girl who had been murdered. I did the research last year when Eteponge was discussing psychic Dorothy Allison. http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2009/07/ps ... redux.html I had wondered if Ms. Allison was the psychic in question as this case is from NJ. I could find no mention in the official reports that a psychic had given information, let alone the name of the psychic who contacted the Police Department offering their assistance.

My information about the use of a psychic comes directly from one of the Detectives involved in this case and I located and contacted his widow last year to confirm what I had known. She stated that there was in fact a man from NY who claimed to be a psychic who contacted her husband and offered his services. The detective did not believe in psychics and hated anything to do with anyone making such claims. She said that he followed up this claim for one reason. To see if this person might have been directly involved as a suspect or the killer himself. Two detectives met with this psychic and he led them to a remote area where the body was found. The psychic offered other information at that time, that later tied in with a 30 year long investigation by numerous police departments.

The widow of this detective was kind enough to send me copies of her husband's hand written notes and old newspaper clippings about the case. She verbally gave me an accounting of everything that she could recall and confirmed that a psychic's information was in fact how this girls body was found and that subsequent information was extremely accurate. The psychic was found to NOT be connected to any of the players in this case and just like everyone investigating the case, had no inside knowledge of the details or knew of the connection between this dead girl and the others who were later found to be victims.

Here is what they are calling, 'the full story': http://blog.nj.com/deadlysecrets/2008/0 ... crets.html
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby ProfWag » 07 Mar 2011, 20:17

NinjaPuppy wrote:
really? wrote:Do you know I've heard this argument for over 30 years, but can you provide one case where a person claiming psychic abilities provided direct evidence that lead to solving the crime.

I know of one case where a psychic was directly involved in finding the body of a lost, missing girl who had been murdered. I did the research last year when Eteponge was discussing psychic Dorothy Allison. http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2009/07/ps ... redux.html I had wondered if Ms. Allison was the psychic in question as this case is from NJ. I could find no mention in the official reports that a psychic had given information, let alone the name of the psychic who contacted the Police Department offering their assistance.

My information about the use of a psychic comes directly from one of the Detectives involved in this case and I located and contacted his widow last year to confirm what I had known. She stated that there was in fact a man from NY who claimed to be a psychic who contacted her husband and offered his services. The detective did not believe in psychics and hated anything to do with anyone making such claims. She said that he followed up this claim for one reason. To see if this person might have been directly involved as a suspect or the killer himself. Two detectives met with this psychic and he led them to a remote area where the body was found. The psychic offered other information at that time, that later tied in with a 30 year long investigation by numerous police departments.

The widow of this detective was kind enough to send me copies of her husband's hand written notes and old newspaper clippings about the case. She verbally gave me an accounting of everything that she could recall and confirmed that a psychic's information was in fact how this girls body was found and that subsequent information was extremely accurate. The psychic was found to NOT be connected to any of the players in this case and just like everyone investigating the case, had no inside knowledge of the details or knew of the connection between this dead girl and the others who were later found to be victims.

Here is what they are calling, 'the full story': http://blog.nj.com/deadlysecrets/2008/0 ... crets.html

Just to clarify Ninja, the article you site does not mention the use of a psychic, but you're saying you know one was involved? I browsed through several pages of the blog and didn't find any references to a psychic so if there is one, could you be morre specific as to which chapter it's in?
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic

Postby curious » 07 Mar 2011, 22:51

really? wrote:
Do you know I've heard this argument for over 30 years, but can you provide one case where a person claiming psychic abilities provided direct evidence that lead to solving the crime. By direct I mean go to this spot and you'll find the body of... Now I've just done a quick read through of Etta Smith and I can't find one impartial site on the matter of if she provided direct information that solved the crime. How do you know the officer that backed up her isn't retrofitting ? Now I see a lot of sites that say just what you've said. In spite of what people wish to be true that in no way makes something true.

You can't retrofit finding a body, a false accusation and time in prison. Perhaps the officer is retrofitting that she came to him first with the information, before she found the body, but then you have to ask why she was imprisoned. So far as I can tell, the basic facts don't actually seem to be in dispute.

The only thing at issue in this case is how she got the information. We can't categorically prove it was a vision, because we can't prove visions. Some suggest she got the information from someone else, but that begs the question why she would claim have had a psychic vision, instead of being simply honest, especially after being interrogated. Additionally, no link, direct or casual, between her and the killers was found, so we don't have proof that this is how it occured either.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic

Postby really? » 07 Mar 2011, 23:57

curious wrote:
really? wrote:
Do you know I've heard this argument for over 30 years, but can you provide one case where a person claiming psychic abilities provided direct evidence that lead to solving the crime. By direct I mean go to this spot and you'll find the body of... Now I've just done a quick read through of Etta Smith and I can't find one impartial site on the matter of if she provided direct information that solved the crime. How do you know the officer that backed up her isn't retrofitting ? Now I see a lot of sites that say just what you've said. In spite of what people wish to be true that in no way makes something true.

You can't retrofit finding a body, a false accusation and time in prison. Perhaps the officer is retrofitting that she came to him first with the information, before she found the body, but then you have to ask why she was imprisoned. So far as I can tell, the basic facts don't actually seem to be in dispute.

The only thing at issue in this case is how she got the information. We can't categorically prove it was a vision, because we can't prove visions. Some suggest she got the information from someone else, but that begs the question why she would claim have had a psychic vision, instead of being simply honest, especially after being interrogated. Additionally, no link, direct or casual, between her and the killers was found, so we don't have proof that this is how it occured either.



I'm going to assume you completely understand the full meaning and practice of retrofitting.

A few posts earlier you voiced doubts about her and now you've just reiterated those doubts this makes me wonder why you cited her as a prime example of a real psychic in the first place ? So you are back to square one with Etta Smith as to whether she's a true psychic.
Last edited by really? on 08 Mar 2011, 00:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby Craig Browning » 08 Mar 2011, 00:13

Just a Quick Reminder. . . Craig don't play the "Prove It To Me" game.

When it comes to investigative scenarios, as I've stated you can't "prove" things because of the pressures within the system that deliberately suppress and expunge such details. There are those few instances that have gone public only to have the officers in question, painted as being nut-jobs and the reports somehow lacking with hard-proof. We have a thread around here somewhere that deals with just such a scenario (from last summer I believe).

Skeptics love to poke holes into things; they look at a psychic situation as a sheet of bubble-wrap and their only goal is to pop all the bubbles rather than looking at the substance. If the psychic is 100% on a description it is used as "proof" of fallacy and/or painted in a manner that makes it seem "generic" -- "He will be found near water" turns into a statistical equation because of how high the odds are that someone will be found by a body or container of water, etc. While the stats are true, so is the psychic's perspective; they can't be 100% and it's not because they are frauds (intentional or otherwise).

As I've pointed out before, when I have a particular sensation or "image" presented to me I can only look at it based on my own experiences in life and understanding of those things. If I see myself on stage and doing a show and in the course of the show I cut a friend in half or whatever, it COULD BE based on memories of doing shows or, it COULD BE my subconscious warning me about some kind of "division" going on in the life of that friend that could affect me.

The symbol of vivisection could be that they are "not all there" (depending on which effect I'd be presenting)... they are "falling apart" emotionally or even that they are headed towards major surgery... there's a multitude of things the image COULD BE and the only way to resolve the dream is to engage rational (fallible/limited) thinking based on what I know about that person and their current situation -- I have to ASSUME things based on what my gut (intuition) is leading me to "see"/sense.

Because of all these variables Skeptics take a dump and scoff at Psychic involvement with anything & everything, rarely (if ever) putting themselves in the shoes of the sensitive, and considering all the different things he/she must filter and discern. . . trust me when I say, it's a maddening process and can at times prove crippling.

Not all of us have nail scars into which doubters may place their fingers. . .
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby curious » 08 Mar 2011, 02:04

really? wrote:I'm going to assume you completely understand the full meaning and practice of retrofitting.


No need to condescend. After-the-fact matching of information -- the most common (and logical) argument against psychic experiences verified by a second party. The problem here is the the basics -- she claimed a vision which knew where the body was the officer took pictures of her showing him where on a map because he was skeptical, she went in search of the body in the place she indicated, found it with the help of her children, was interrogated by the police and eventually put in prison for four days on suspicion she had something to do with the crime, because she knew where the body was -- are a matter of public record of occuring at that time and can not be retrofitted in the way you suggest. She won a wrongful imprisonment lawsuit based on these.

really? wrote:A few posts earlier you voiced doubts about her and now you've just reiterated those doubts this makes me wonder why you cited her as a prime example of a real psychic in the first place ? So you are back to square one with Etta Smith as to whether she's a true psychic.

Of course I have doubts. I wonder if she could have overheard someone, and the information replayed as a "psychic vision" in her mind. I wonder if she was covering for someone who was in the know. I wonder if it was sheer blind luck, and I wonder if it's a genuine psychic vision. The fact is I don't know for sure, and despite your certainty that watered-down third-hand accounts are a more reliable source of information than the primary participants, police and court documents, you don't either. We lack proof of all possible answers. In fact, some of the skeptical conclusions, involving either a certain amount of conspiracy, or a woman who would rather sit in jail for days, than confess how she really knew the information, are also unlikely.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby really? » 08 Mar 2011, 03:22

really? wrote:A few posts earlier you voiced doubts about her and now you've just reiterated those doubts this makes me wonder why you cited her as a prime example of a real psychic in the first place ? So you are back to square one with Etta Smith as to whether she's a true psychic.

curious wrote:Of course I have doubts. I wonder if she could have overheard someone, and the information replayed as a "psychic vision" in her mind. I wonder if she was covering for someone who was in the know. I wonder if it was sheer blind luck, and I wonder if it's a genuine psychic vision. The fact is I don't know for sure, and despite your certainty that watered-down third-hand accounts are a more reliable source of information than the primary participants, police and court documents, you don't either. We lack proof of all possible answers. In fact, some of the skeptical conclusions, involving either a certain amount of conspiracy, or a woman who would rather sit in jail for days, than confess how she really knew the information, are also unlikely.


curious wrote:I would have to disagree with the universal false hope statement. There are those, however few they may be, who are able to provide legitimate answers. Once again, I'd like to draw your attention to the Etta Smith case on the video and film forum, where they interview her and one of the police officers involved in her incarceration.


The implicitness of the first statement concludes you do know there are real psychics and the implication of the second statement says you feel Etta Smith is one. But if you had misgivings about her then I don't understand why you used her as an example. How does that put you first contention on firm ground ?
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby curious » 08 Mar 2011, 04:52

really? wrote:[/b]
The implicitness of the first statement concludes you do know there are real psychics and the implication of the second statement says you feel Etta Smith is one. But if you had misgivings about her then I don't understand why you used her as an example. How does that put you first contention on firm ground ?

I do know there are real psychic experiences, having had and witnessed a few myself that I haven't been able to explain away through possible sensory/information leakage or luck of the draw. But I also have doubts as to whether anyone can control and use them consistently to the extent some people claim to. Unfortunately, I can't prove psychic experiences to a skeptic's satisfaction. If I bring in someone to verify an experience, it'll be seen as outright lies, or retrofitting the memory, because the possibility of psi's existence doesn't fit into the current scientific view of what is plausible in the world.

Lacking any evidence to the contrary, I do think Etta Smith had a psychic experience, based on the situation she found herself in and on how she claims the information was communicated -- in particular the aspects of 'feeling' the information was true, and being able to recognize a place without having actually seen a picture of it in her mind's eye. That doesn't mean I can't still have doubts as well, since I can't prove it, and I don't have access to her or the detective to find out more about this. As I said previously, it can neither be proven beyond doubt that she had a psychic experience, nor can it be proven beyond doubt that she had other means of gaining this information. All possible explanations for this case are unlikely, and I will defer to the psychic explanation given by the person who claims it until she denies the experience, or until someone else can prove to me she gained the information through other means.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Mar 2011, 05:26

ProfWag wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:
really? wrote:Do you know I've heard this argument for over 30 years, but can you provide one case where a person claiming psychic abilities provided direct evidence that lead to solving the crime.

I know of one case where a psychic was directly involved in finding the body of a lost, missing girl who had been murdered. I did the research last year when Eteponge was discussing psychic Dorothy Allison. http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2009/07/ps ... redux.html I had wondered if Ms. Allison was the psychic in question as this case is from NJ. I could find no mention in the official reports that a psychic had given information, let alone the name of the psychic who contacted the Police Department offering their assistance.

My information about the use of a psychic comes directly from one of the Detectives involved in this case and I located and contacted his widow last year to confirm what I had known. She stated that there was in fact a man from NY who claimed to be a psychic who contacted her husband and offered his services. The detective did not believe in psychics and hated anything to do with anyone making such claims. She said that he followed up this claim for one reason. To see if this person might have been directly involved as a suspect or the killer himself. Two detectives met with this psychic and he led them to a remote area where the body was found. The psychic offered other information at that time, that later tied in with a 30 year long investigation by numerous police departments.

The widow of this detective was kind enough to send me copies of her husband's hand written notes and old newspaper clippings about the case. She verbally gave me an accounting of everything that she could recall and confirmed that a psychic's information was in fact how this girls body was found and that subsequent information was extremely accurate. The psychic was found to NOT be connected to any of the players in this case and just like everyone investigating the case, had no inside knowledge of the details or knew of the connection between this dead girl and the others who were later found to be victims.

Here is what they are calling, 'the full story': http://blog.nj.com/deadlysecrets/2008/0 ... crets.html

Just to clarify Ninja, the article you site does not mention the use of a psychic, but you're saying you know one was involved? I browsed through several pages of the blog and didn't find any references to a psychic so if there is one, could you be morre specific as to which chapter it's in?


My first paragraph:
I could find no mention in the official reports that a psychic had given information, let alone the name of the psychic who contacted the Police Department offering their assistance.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Mar 2011, 05:31

ProfWag wrote:Just to clarify Ninja, the article you site does not mention the use of a psychic, but you're saying you know one was involved? I browsed through several pages of the blog and didn't find any references to a psychic so if there is one, could you be morre specific as to which chapter it's in?


I also don't point out that the article has at least one major incorrect fact (that I personally know of) or the total deletion of another detective who was instrumental in the investigation. No one but the two detectives knew about the psychic. The reason is exactly due to what Craig states in his commentary.

The use of a psychic came in during Chapter 7, "The River's Edge".
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby ProfWag » 08 Mar 2011, 05:57

curious wrote: All possible explanations for this case are unlikely,...

This, from People magazine (yea, yea, yea, I know...)
"A police investigator maintains that Smith, though innocent of any crime, was guilty of fabricating her "vision." "It's my opinion that she used information she heard from third parties [in Pacoima] and information in news reports, and coupled it together into this story," says Det. Pat Conmay.
Smith, who claims no psychic powers (though she describes herself as "a very sensitive person"), replies that she had no reason to concoct a story. Conmay suggests that she did, and that it may have involved profit, not prophecy. "[Smith] made some comments to an undercover policewoman [who shared her cell] that she was going to make a lot of money from a book and a movie," he says."
Quite frankly, that explanation seems very logical and not "unlikely."
http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar ... 51,00.html
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby Arouet » 08 Mar 2011, 06:42

ProfWag wrote:This, from People magazine (yea, yea, yea, I know...)


Haha, reminds me of a time when I was a teenager, and my two grandmother's were visiting our house. I was upstairs doing homework but I could still hear snippets of the conversation downstairs. At one point, my grandmothe's got into a vigorous debate over which trash mag provided the best gossip (not sure if they categorized it in those words). Suddenly I heard one of them say, quite definitively: "If it's not in People, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!"

So you're in good hands. You can trust that source!

(oh, and we subscribe to people - I'll have People and Scientific American in my magazine rack in the can - guess which one I usually pick to read! ;))
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby curious » 08 Mar 2011, 06:43

ProfWag wrote:
curious wrote: All possible explanations for this case are unlikely,...

This, from People magazine (yea, yea, yea, I know...)
"A police investigator maintains that Smith, though innocent of any crime, was guilty of fabricating her "vision." "It's my opinion that she used information she heard from third parties [in Pacoima] and information in news reports, and coupled it together into this story," says Det. Pat Conmay.
Smith, who claims no psychic powers (though she describes herself as "a very sensitive person"), replies that she had no reason to concoct a story. Conmay suggests that she did, and that it may have involved profit, not prophecy. "[Smith] made some comments to an undercover policewoman [who shared her cell] that she was going to make a lot of money from a book and a movie," he says."
Quite frankly, that explanation seems very logical and not "unlikely."
http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar ... 51,00.html

Lacking a transcript of the actual conversation between her and the policewoman, a claim of retrofitting can easily be made in this case as well. Such a wonderful argument that retrofitting is, isn't it?

But let's break it down further -- a woman is going to stick to her story of "a vision" in the face of a charge of murder (remember, it took four days of imprisonment before they caught the killers and were subsequently able to clear her of any wrong-doing. Something she couldn't guarantee would happen), instead of admitting that she heard the story in the neighbourhood, all so she could make a couple of bucks and get her name known.

Or do her comments about a book and money sound more logical as a way to vent frustration/hope for eventual vindication, because she was in prison facing jailtime for a crime she didn't commit. To be frank, I've said more suspicious things in less stressful situations than that.

Keep in mind, this woman hasn't made any other obvious or liberty-threatening attempts to gain notoriety or money that I currently know of. If you can show me that this type of behaviour is not out of the norm for her, that she is the type of person who would take such a risky action for a little cash, then I will agree that this is the most logical argument. Otherwise, we're back at square one.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby ProfWag » 08 Mar 2011, 21:54

curious wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
curious wrote: All possible explanations for this case are unlikely,...

This, from People magazine (yea, yea, yea, I know...)
"A police investigator maintains that Smith, though innocent of any crime, was guilty of fabricating her "vision." "It's my opinion that she used information she heard from third parties [in Pacoima] and information in news reports, and coupled it together into this story," says Det. Pat Conmay.
Smith, who claims no psychic powers (though she describes herself as "a very sensitive person"), replies that she had no reason to concoct a story. Conmay suggests that she did, and that it may have involved profit, not prophecy. "[Smith] made some comments to an undercover policewoman [who shared her cell] that she was going to make a lot of money from a book and a movie," he says."
Quite frankly, that explanation seems very logical and not "unlikely."
http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar ... 51,00.html

Lacking a transcript of the actual conversation between her and the policewoman, a claim of retrofitting can easily be made in this case as well. Such a wonderful argument that retrofitting is, isn't it?

But let's break it down further -- a woman is going to stick to her story of "a vision" in the face of a charge of murder (remember, it took four days of imprisonment before they caught the killers and were subsequently able to clear her of any wrong-doing. Something she couldn't guarantee would happen), instead of admitting that she heard the story in the neighbourhood, all so she could make a couple of bucks and get her name known.

Or do her comments about a book and money sound more logical as a way to vent frustration/hope for eventual vindication, because she was in prison facing jailtime for a crime she didn't commit. To be frank, I've said more suspicious things in less stressful situations than that.

Keep in mind, this woman hasn't made any other obvious or liberty-threatening attempts to gain notoriety or money that I currently know of. If you can show me that this type of behaviour is not out of the norm for her, that she is the type of person who would take such a risky action for a little cash, then I will agree that this is the most logical argument. Otherwise, we're back at square one.

It appears to me that one of the main differences in opinion on investigating psychic phenomenon is that those who choose to accept a story will maintain it's truthfullness regardless of possible explanations whereas those who don't (skeptics, if you will) feel that if there are questions surrounding the case then the door is left ajar for the story to have a more tangible explanation. That seems to be the case here. On the surface it appears to be a compelling story, but, there are questions that arise to her authenticity which means that I can't accept it as an authentic psychic experience.
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Re: Inside Edition Exposes Missing Persons Psychic now with

Postby curious » 08 Mar 2011, 22:58

ProfWag wrote:It appears to me that one of the main differences in opinion on investigating psychic phenomenon is that those who choose to accept a story will maintain it's truthfullness regardless of possible explanations whereas those who don't (skeptics, if you will) feel that if there are questions surrounding the case then the door is left ajar for the story to have a more tangible explanation. That seems to be the case here. On the surface it appears to be a compelling story, but, there are questions that arise to her authenticity which means that I can't accept it as an authentic psychic experience.


So, are you saying this case is questionable, the truth is unknown, so you're suspending your judgement until there's more evidence? Or are you saying a vague, unofficial, uncontextualized statement is proof?
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