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What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 14 Feb 2011, 20:17

. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine.


you have things the wrong way round

We are spirits with a body (here and now) and not a body which then has a spirit only when the body perishes.

When the spirit finally withdraws ,then the material and energy disperses but the spirit is not changed.
the guiding intelligence has left , and the material and energy is taken up by other intelligence.

all according to the law of cause and effect.

we can imagine though , because there is plenty of interesting communication from those who have passed on , if you would listen , giving their description of life and their message that life is governed by thought.

behind material is energy, behind energy is mind, behind mind there is spirit.

you should listen to Silver Birch Speak , and it is a very good talk. (before you post anything else IMO)

then you will have a bit of an idea about metaphysics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aFtkVRrizU&playnext=1&list=PLC3B17A509F021D0C

all the best
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 14 Feb 2011, 20:35

Mazda wrote:you have things the wrong way round

We are spirits with a body (here and now) and not a body which then has a spirit only when the body perishes.


How do you know this?

When the spirit finally withdraws ,then the material and energy disperses but the spirit is not changed.

How do you know this?
the guiding intelligence has left , and the material and energy is taken up by other intelligence.

How do you know this?
all according to the law of cause and effect.

law of cause and effect? So now you're saying that these "spirits' ARE material?

we can imagine though , because there is plenty of interesting communication from those who have passed on , if you would listen , giving their description of life and their message that life is governed by thought.

Has this been reliably established?
behind material is energy, behind energy is mind, behind mind there is spirit.

How do you know this?
you should listen to Silver Birch Speak , and it is a very good talk. (before you post anything else IMO)

too late, but I'll try and listen at some point
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 14 Feb 2011, 23:12

Arouet wrote:
really? wrote:It really does present a big problem for ghostly existence if ghosts don't follow the 2nd law. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine. Which really doesn't help one bit that leaves the only what you've said above.


What reason do we have to assume that this ghost would be subject to the same phyisical laws? It only poses a problem if its made of matter. If its made of something else, we have no idea what rules it must follow.

Am I wrong?


Everything is subject to the laws of nature. Electromagnetic radiation is not made of matter yet it is subject to the laws of nature.
Because there's no good reason other than what religion says and as you can see that leads nowhere too to understanding what the nature of ghosts might be. Ghosts are known to interact with their environment that necessarily makes them subject to nature and from what I've seen so far ghosts appear to be subject to these laws also.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 14 Feb 2011, 23:18

Mazda wrote:
. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine.


you have things the wrong way round

We are spirits with a body (here and now) and not a body which then has a spirit only when the body perishes.

When the spirit finally withdraws ,then the material and energy disperses but the spirit is not changed.
the guiding intelligence has left , and the material and energy is taken up by other intelligence.

all according to the law of cause and effect.

we can imagine though , because there is plenty of interesting communication from those who have passed on , if you would listen , giving their description of life and their message that life is governed by thought.

behind material is energy, behind energy is mind, behind mind there is spirit.

you should listen to Silver Birch Speak , and it is a very good talk. (before you post anything else IMO)

then you will have a bit of an idea about metaphysics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aFtkVRrizU&playnext=1&list=PLC3B17A509F021D0C

all the best


You know nothing. You have a belief. I'll stand by what Arouet has asked you.
The same applies to you in regards to understanding the 2nd law and it's application.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 14 Feb 2011, 23:29

Aoruet you have replied to my previous post ( which was a reply to really's quote )

you ask questions like has it been proved etc
it has to me
i know all these things from personal experience and knowledge. which is not something that can be given to each other.
we each have to find and understand these things for ourselves , no one can do it for you.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 14 Feb 2011, 23:55

really? wrote:
Ghosts are known to interact with their environment that necessarily makes them subject to nature and from what I've seen so far ghosts appear to be subject to these laws also.



you should try and understand the difference between a ghost and a spirit.

a ghost is like a residual image or impression that is left around certain areas -
causing them to 'appear' from time to time under 'certain conditions' and 'play out'

until this part finally diminishes ( probably according to the dispersal of energy law!).
it is like a finer layer of material substance.

the spirit is the individual which continues onward. and can communicate with us via a medium.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 15 Feb 2011, 00:00

Mazda wrote:
really? wrote:
Ghosts are known to interact with their environment that necessarily makes them subject to nature and from what I've seen so far ghosts appear to be subject to these laws also.



you should try and understand the difference between a ghost and a spirit.

a ghost is like a residual image or impression that is left around certain areas -
causing them to 'appear' from time to time under 'certain conditions' and 'play out'

until this part finally diminishes ( probably according to the dispersal of energy law!).
it is like a finer layer of material substance.

the spirit is the individual which continues onward. and can communicate with us via a medium.


I'm just not as smart as you.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 15 Feb 2011, 10:55

really? wrote:
Arouet wrote:Everything is subject to the laws of nature. Electromagnetic radiation is not made of matter yet it is subject to the laws of nature.
Because there's no good reason other than what religion says and as you can see that leads nowhere too to understanding what the nature of ghosts might be. Ghosts are known to interact with their environment that necessarily makes them subject to nature and from what I've seen so far ghosts appear to be subject to these laws also.


I just don't know how we can say that. IF a lot of this stuff is true: telepathy, ghosts, reincarnation, remote viewing, etc. then we can reasonably surmise that either: our knowledge of the laws of nature are woefully incomplete, OR there are different rules that apply to these things. Because as you have correctly noted: these things DON'T fit with our known rules. So either the rules are wrong (or incomplete) or they simply don't apply to these things.

For lurkers: I don't believe these things do exist, I'm assuming here for the sake of the argument that they do.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 15 Feb 2011, 11:09

Mazda wrote:Aoruet you have replied to my previous post ( which was a reply to really's quote )

you ask questions like has it been proved etc
it has to me
i know all these things from personal experience and knowledge. which is not something that can be given to each other.
we each have to find and understand these things for ourselves , no one can do it for you.


Well, first of all, I don't ask for proof - that's too high a standard - let's stick with high probability.

2nd: while I'm happy that you have your own personal beliefs you have put them forward as something established. If they are only established to you and can't be demonstrated to others, then you should refrain from presenting them as established. Something established can by definition be demonstrated to someone else.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 15 Feb 2011, 21:41

Arouet wrote:
Well, first of all, I don't ask for proof - that's too high a standard - let's stick with high probability.

2nd: while I'm happy that you have your own personal beliefs you have put them forward as something established. If they are only established to you and can't be demonstrated to others, then you should refrain from presenting them as established. Something established can by definition be demonstrated to someone else.





But, They have been established and demonstrated - to a lot of people.

Thats the thing,its an individual process.
i don't have any beliefs in the way you mean , nor do i follow any religion.
what i know to be true has been proved to me through varied experiences.
It has been likewise proved to a lot of other individuals. long before me and will be long after.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby DMJY » 18 Mar 2011, 14:22

The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine. Which really doesn't help one bit that leaves the only what you've said above.

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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby PrismEntity » 28 Mar 2011, 14:25

The second law is not a simple concept to explain. I have heard it said that less than 100 people in the world really understand entropy.
Usually in forums like this, its brought up in some regard to evolution.

Before we get to the point about how the second law is involved in the debate between creationists and evolutionists, lets try to understand it at a very basic level.

Consider a battery. Chemical forces maintain a separation of charge between the positive and negative terminals. All this means is there a huge tide of electrons that want to get to the other side. A good analogy of this is a bucket of water held ten feet in the air. The water is storing a certain amount of potential energy (the capacity to do work). We could build a wheel that the water would turn as it fell and extract the work from the energy if we wanted.

In a similar way, the "bucket" of electrons (the negative terminal) stores a certain amount of energy that can be tapped asw it "falls" to the ground (the positive terminal).

The more electrons that flow from - to + the more "in balance" the two poles are and the less energy there is that can be 'extracted' to do work. (and YES, current flows from negative to positive, I dont feel like explaining it at the moment, if u wanna argue, come on...)

The amount of """USABLE""" energy in relation to """TOTAL""" energy is entropy.

You cannot create or destroy energy.

However, not all (distribution of) energy is equal.

a room that is at 70 degrees F EVERYWHERE IN THE ROOM has the same amount of overall 'energy' that a room which is at 69 DF in one equal half of the room and 71 DF
in the other, BUT.... you can tap the second example to get it to do work (that you WANT it to do), but not the first, even though there is the same amount of energy in the room.

A new battery has low entropy. A used battery has high entropy. They both have the same energy.

Any questions?
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby PrismEntity » 31 Mar 2011, 03:45

So.

Everything runs down. This is the second law. Everthing goes from a state of higher order to a state of lower order.

Lets consider a quote from a very interesting man.

If order and structure must become disorder and chaos, if the universe tends toward ever increasing randomness, then how did life develop?

This process of evolution is a process of ever increasing order and complexity - atoms become molecules become amino acids become proteins become cells become complex organisms, which themselves become ever more complex in response to environmental challenges, organizing, growing, evolving.

Life, it seems, moves toward increasing order, while the second law demands that it should gain entropy, decaying into the lifeless soup of equilibrium. Is this a paradox? A contradiction? An illusion? Whats going on?

- Michael Hutchison
"It is a very great offense to my intellect that the very things that I despise other people for being credulous of actually occur to me..."
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby PrismEntity » 31 Mar 2011, 04:03

A very important point to remember, the forgetting of which is the basis of many many fallacies on the subject, is this...

MATTER AND ENERGY ARE SIMPLY TWO DIFFERENT STATES OF THE EXACT SAME THING.

E=MC2, remember?
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 31 Mar 2011, 11:14

More informed people than myself have explained very well why the TOE does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Google it.

Here is talkorigins on the matter: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html
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