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What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

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What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 11 Feb 2011, 21:38

I have tried unsuccesfully to find out. despite reading on it online and youtube..
I am beginning to think that no one really understands it either.. ;)

And why is it used so often by pseudoskeptics to try and refute things they dont like.

IMO there are laws that govern everything and to say that there can be such a thing as chaos does not make sense.
If there were the whole universe would fall apart.

And if there were ( chaos which was contained )then that is not really chaos , but a law we dont understand yet !
==========
this is my first post so greetings to everyone.

Just today i heard prof brian cox on radio mention that there couldnt be ghosts because it would go again the 2nd law. he then went on to say that there were no proofs in science , but constant theories which are always being adapted. which is just confusing.

i'm no scientist but im dismayed by their use of language . its like the French who understand English, but wont communicate with you unless you speak French.

hope you get the Gist of what Saying

so what simply if possible is the 2nd law ??

:?
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Feb 2011, 21:41

Welcome Mazda! Zoom zoom!
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 11 Feb 2011, 22:48

I'm certainly no expert, but you might start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law ... modynamics

I can't fathom how you are able to conclude to that "pseudoskeptics" are wrong to rely on the 2nd law of thermodynamics to refute certain arguments when you admit to not having the foggiest idea of what it means.

Edit: you didn't say exactly that they were wrong to do so, but calling them pseudoskeptics who used it to refute things they don't like sort of implied it. Apologies if that is not what you were saying (though I suspect strongly it was)
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 11 Feb 2011, 23:13

Hello Ninjapup, hello Arouet

yes, it is foggy my understanding of it.
Like Prof Cox said this morning something about 'things tending to disorder'. But everything is order. everything is rhythm and pattern.
everything is cause and effect. there is no chaos. so whatever they think is the 2nd law is must be a mistaken belief.

Cox said ghosts ( i think he meant spirits) dont exist - because of the 2nd law.
But to those who know, spirits do exist ,and we have had plenty individual proof. So therefor Cox must be wrong about the 2nd law (whatever it is).
see..
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 11 Feb 2011, 23:43

Well if spirits are real. And Cox argued that spirits can't be real according to the 2nd Law, Then indeed Cox would be wrong. I'm not sure I'm with you on the spirits though...
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 12 Feb 2011, 04:16

Mazda wrote:Hello Ninjapup, hello Arouet

yes, it is foggy my understanding of it.
Like Prof Cox said this morning something about 'things tending to disorder'. But everything is order. everything is rhythm and pattern.
everything is cause and effect. there is no chaos. so whatever they think is the 2nd law is must be a mistaken belief.

Cox said ghosts ( i think he meant spirits) dont exist - because of the 2nd law.
But to those who know, spirits do exist ,and we have had plenty individual proof. So therefor Cox must be wrong about the 2nd law (whatever it is).
see..


Like Prof Cox said this morning something about 'things tending to disorder'. But everything is order. everything is rhythm and pattern.

This is true closed systems tend towards disorder. Take yourself for instance an open system. You maintain order by consuming food and water. Yet when you die disorder happens to your body immediately it's known a decay.
Trust that there's no mistaken belief about the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.
As it applies to the existence of ghosts the 2nd law is not in favor of their reality. Ghosts would have to have some mechanism to maintain order. It's assumed ghosts are energy by those that feel they are real. But using that idea it's not possible to add energy to maintain energy....
I'll have to get back to this later.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 12 Feb 2011, 21:09

hello really,

thanks for your reply
the dis-integration of the body is not outside of the laws of physics /chemistry though !
it is not disorder in that respect .
the guiding intelligence has left and the atoms of the body are free to go their own way ,and are eventually attracted to other group cells becoming vegetation again etc

there is an old famous quotation which says something like ' the body is never more alive than when it is dead'..

It is instinctive(unconscious) mind which keeps control of the body. we know this is true , we can and do send conscious thoughts to our body and usually interferes for the worst- to the stomach etc. we can also through hypnosis send thoughts to the unconscious. for eg. to tighten the muscle s ,slow the heart ,move the circulaiton to various parts etc.
But when the real you (mind/spirit) leaves the body finally then the laws of cause and effect are still not changed.

what exactly is this closed sytem is there even such a thing ?
his is true closed systems tend towards disorder
what do you mean by this ? why disorder ? is it outside the laws of chemsitry / physics ?

thanks
Mazda
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 12 Feb 2011, 21:27

Mazda wrote:hello really,

thanks for your reply
the dis-integration of the body is not outside of the laws of physics /chemistry though !
it is not disorder in that respect .
the guiding intelligence has left and the atoms of the body are free to go their own way ,and are eventually attracted to other group cells becoming vegetation again etc

there is an old famous quotation which says something like ' the body is never more alive than when it is dead'..

It is instinctive(unconscious) mind which keeps control of the body. we know this is true , we can and do send conscious thoughts to our body and usually interferes for the worst- to the stomach etc. we can also through hypnosis send thoughts to the unconscious. for eg. to tighten the muscle s ,slow the heart ,move the circulaiton to various parts etc.
But when the real you (mind/spirit) leaves the body finally then the laws of cause and effect are still not changed.

what exactly is this closed sytem is there even such a thing ?
his is true closed systems tend towards disorder
what do you mean by this ? why disorder ? is it outside the laws of chemsitry / physics ?

thanks
Mazda



You are all over the place conflating physics with metaphysics. Before any progress can be made on your part you need to understand the 2nd law of Thermodynamics a whole lot better than you do at this moment.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 12 Feb 2011, 22:52

Well , that's my original question !
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Mazda » 14 Feb 2011, 04:55

thankfully , i have come across a much better description of 2nd law and entropy etc.

its very readable and easy to follow(so far) by Prof Frank L. Lambert

There is no chaos or disorder it is rather a 'dispersal of energy' ,.

( so How this disproves ghosts As Cox says is beyond me, since Spirits are no more material than mind is( although i expect an argument about that )


http://secondlaw.oxy.edu/two.html#time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_dispersal

quote below:

Problem: entropy as disorder is hard to teach

The term "entropy" has been in use from early in the history of classical thermodynamics, and with the development of statistical thermodynamics and quantum theory, entropy changes have been described in terms of the mixing or "spreading" of the total energy of each constituent of a system over its particular quantized energy levels.

Such descriptions have tended to be used together with commonly used terms such as disorder and chaos which are ambiguous, and whose everyday meaning is the opposite of what they are intended to mean in thermodynamics.


guess ill be studying for a while now
;)
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 14 Feb 2011, 05:00

I'm not particularly crazy about "such and such" means that ghosts are impossible, because that's essentially an argument from ignorance. I would prefer to do it the other way: what evidence is there for ghosts? How reliable is it?
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 14 Feb 2011, 11:48

Arouet wrote:I'm not particularly crazy about "such and such" means that ghosts are impossible, because that's essentially an argument from ignorance. I would prefer to do it the other way: what evidence is there for ghosts? How reliable is it?



It really does present a big problem for ghostly existence if ghosts don't follow the 2nd law. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine. Which really doesn't help one bit that leaves the only what you've said above.
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby really? » 14 Feb 2011, 11:51

Mazda wrote:thankfully , i have come across a much better description of 2nd law and entropy etc.

its very readable and easy to follow(so far) by Prof Frank L. Lambert

There is no chaos or disorder it is rather a 'dispersal of energy' ,.

( so How this disproves ghosts As Cox says is beyond me, since Spirits are no more material than mind is( although i expect an argument about that )



Problem: entropy as disorder is hard to teach

The term "entropy" has been in use from early in the history of classical thermodynamics, and with the development of statistical thermodynamics and quantum theory, entropy changes have been described in terms of the mixing or "spreading" of the total energy of each constituent of a system over its particular quantized energy levels.

Such descriptions have tended to be used together with commonly used terms such as disorder and chaos which are ambiguous, and whose everyday meaning is the opposite of what they are intended to mean in thermodynamics.


guess ill be studying for a while now
;)


Focus on Entropy or if you prefer "dispersal of energy of a system
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby Arouet » 14 Feb 2011, 20:12

really? wrote:It really does present a big problem for ghostly existence if ghosts don't follow the 2nd law. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine. Which really doesn't help one bit that leaves the only what you've said above.


What reason do we have to assume that this ghost would be subject to the same phyisical laws? It only poses a problem if its made of matter. If its made of something else, we have no idea what rules it must follow.

Am I wrong?
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Re: What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics ?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Feb 2011, 20:16

Arouet wrote:
really? wrote:It really does present a big problem for ghostly existence if ghosts don't follow the 2nd law. The problem arises because a ghost has to maintain order and not succumb to increasing disorder [entropy] just like we must do too continue existing. The only way around this would be to state that ghosts are not only something whose nature we don't but can't even imagine. Which really doesn't help one bit that leaves the only what you've said above.


What reason do we have to assume that this ghost would be subject to the same phyisical laws? It only poses a problem if its made of matter. If its made of something else, we have no idea what rules it must follow.

Am I wrong?

Nope. I agree.
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