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Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

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Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby PsiSearch » 01 Dec 2010, 16:50

Well, as a believer in the paranormal and such; I'd like to show the most ridiculous video made by one of the biggest pseudo skeptics on Earth -- aside from Penn & Teller and Michael Shermer and of course James Randi.

Here is a video from C4 (Channel 4) made by Derren Brown and testing a Dowser, to see if he has some divine powers. In this test, the paranormal wins, and like most times; skeptics fail.


Why the Ideomotor Effect is wrong for Dowsing:

1. The "tester" is tested by Derren to find a capsule of water and it is buried underneath the ground.
2. When the mans Dowsing rod starts to shake, he digs for it under the ground; there is the capsule with a note - but no water.
3. Derren says he's been fooled -- giving no statement of the Ideomotor Effect. But, the rod was more intelligent to find the Dowsers non goal, as in there was no water; but rather a paranormal feat.

There is more -- just check the video out - you'll see my point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rOqyMykIso
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby caniswalensis » 01 Dec 2010, 19:35

Sorry, but I think you have missed the point of the video. There is nothing paranormal happening in it.

It really does not have much to say about dowsing at all. This is an example of Derren Brown psychologically (not psychically) manipulating a person. He controlled the dowser with suggestion and had him stop over the canister by design. The note was to show that it was Derren, not dowsing that led the man to the canister.

However, it is just a bit of edited video, made for a television series. It does not really prove or disprove anything at all. It's just entertainment.

Certainly, the Ideomotor Effect is not debunked in this video.

regards, Canis
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby derrida » 02 Dec 2010, 11:00

PsiSearch wrote:Well, as a believer in the paranormal and such; I'd like to show the most ridiculous video made by one of the biggest pseudo skeptics on Earth -- aside from Penn & Teller and Michael Shermer and of course James Randi.

Here is a video from C4 (Channel 4) made by Derren Brown and testing a Dowser, to see if he has some divine powers. In this test, the paranormal wins, and like most times; skeptics fail.


Why the Ideomotor Effect is wrong for Dowsing:

1. The "tester" is tested by Derren to find a capsule of water and it is buried underneath the ground.
2. When the mans Dowsing rod starts to shake, he digs for it under the ground; there is the capsule with a note - but no water.
3. Derren says he's been fooled -- giving no statement of the Ideomotor Effect. But, the rod was more intelligent to find the Dowsers non goal, as in there was no water; but rather a paranormal feat.

There is more -- just check the video out - you'll see my point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rOqyMykIso


gosh..
this is a video por tv.. this doesnt prove anything
and the ideomotor effect is something established..
try it with your friends..tell them to think of a finger.. then press slightly in each of their fingers you are going to be able to tell which is the finger they are thinking
there´s nothing to it..
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby Arouet » 02 Dec 2010, 11:27

Yeah, PS, there are some pretty clever experiments demonstrating that effect.

I think you're a little too quick off the draw with shooting out the "debunked!" label on your posts. Maybe be a little less ambitious: keep your comments to the actual video you are critiquing and not the effect in general. And make sure you really understand what is going on before you declare that you have found a massive flaw.
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby Craig Browning » 02 Dec 2010, 13:20

Most here know my views on this subject (my experience) and as such, I believe little "gotchya" bits of this kind are the sort of things "debunkers" and "skeptics" do for the sake of insulting and demeaning those that do have said SKILL set... this include deliberate misrepresentation when it comes to what they are doing and in most instances, what is actually afoot (which is not paranormal in my opinion, though there are elements tied to the practice that hint at such. This is especially so when it comes to the less educated and overly "religious").

While the magic lover/entertainer and effects designer in me would loathe to see it happen, I can see the more affluent and influential members of the Psychic/New Age community organizing and start fighting back some day soon; exposing the fraud of magic as an "entertainment" as well as the grotesque reality about an exceptionally high percentage of magic-based performers that are "womanizers", hustlers (con-artists), thieves, and just good ole fashioned perverts... including the whole sexual predator/child molester thingy. After all, the magic buffs seem to have little reservation when it comes to harassing and tossing every single person that practices/works as a "Psychic" or hosts belief in a more metaphysical/mystical sense of spiritual existence, so why wouldn't the antics that are good for the goose not be just as acceptable for the ganders out there? Why shouldn't professional psychics come to magic shows and show as well as tell the audience about all these things and of course, how it's all done; Iain Rowland encourages magicians to visit psychics and give them grief and cut into their livelihood?

I know, I'm on one of my grumpy old psychic rants... someone has to speak up for the oppressed :twisted:

When it comes to dowsing, I've simply seen it do way too much good over the course of the past 50 years; everything from locating the organs, etc. where problems existed prior to any kind typical medical testing is able to confirm said findings... tracking down lost pets, missing persons and countless bits of "treasure"... the lists are quite extensive and to be fare, so is the list "proving" to the contrary. The difference is, those being tested are rarely those that have had the exceptional success. Typically, they are headline chasers and glory hounds. "True" Psychics or whatever you wish to call them, aren't usually high profiled people, the tend to be rather humble and very few of them charge for whatever work they may do (those that do, do so for a variety of reasons... and I'm not talking about the egos found in the trade... I, as an example, do Readings and Home Psychic Parties so as to augment my SSI income... which tends to be one of the biggest incentives to most of we old timers. Even at that, I don't see an exceptionally high boon, nor do the others)

Anyhow, I've got to get to bed.
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby derrida » 02 Dec 2010, 13:40

i dont think ps knows how to use the word ¨debunked¨

i am going to start a thread called ¨PS Debunked¨
all those topics backfire on you

get some information first
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby PsiSearch » 02 Dec 2010, 14:18

derrida wrote:i dont think ps knows how to use the word ¨debunked¨

i am going to start a thread called ¨PS Debunked¨
all those topics backfire on you

get some information first
Well, I didn't say the Ideomotor Effect was debunked; just rather for showing that the credence people put into Derren for it.

Why would you start a topic about me? It was a misconception about you thinking I "debunked" the Ideomotor Effect for real. Rather, than debunking one mans illusion. Sorry.
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby derrida » 03 Dec 2010, 03:38

PsiSearch wrote:
derrida wrote:i dont think ps knows how to use the word ¨debunked¨

i am going to start a thread called ¨PS Debunked¨
all those topics backfire on you

get some information first
Well, I didn't say the Ideomotor Effect was debunked; just rather for showing that the credence people put into Derren for it.

Why would you start a topic about me? It was a misconception about you thinking I "debunked" the Ideomotor Effect for real. Rather, than debunking one mans illusion. Sorry.


im not going to start a thread on you.. that was a joke.. im just saying you dont know how to use the word debunked

the thread´s name is derren brown. ideomotor effect debunked
were you totally missed the point of the effect of derren brown..

+ the ideomotor effect is real..
thats like saying you are going to debunk the moon landing.. oh wait there´s people here that try to do that
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby Craig Browning » 03 Dec 2010, 03:40

PsiSearch... firstly, you didn't use proper terminology in your post; the bit DB was doing was supposedly testing a DOWSER not some demonstration in Muscle Reading or related techniques (I happen to do both... or maybe I should say, I did it for a long time, kindof hard to do from a wheelchair :( ). The thing is, you seem to be jumping the gun with certain things or, at minimum, not fully understanding (in this case, what DB was doing) what the subject & contexts are and thus, employ the proper terms for describing things and (this is important) clarifying your perspectives and/or reason behind the post.

Most of us here are pretty kick-back and get along even though we don't agree on certain issues. One issue most of us do agree on though, is to keep your posts as clear as you can when it comes to what you're talking about but in doing so, presenting yourself as someone that knows a bit about both, the skeptical/rationalists points of view and, if at all possible, that of the believer... Understandably, the latter is quite difficult for most who see themselves as being intellectually superior/savvy than anyone that might profess belief in various things, but then I've seen some very well known "cynics" express a softer, more tolerable side on things, from time to time. :twisted:

I don't know exactly how to "help" you or, for that matter, if this particular post simply didn't "take right" (as you'd intended to express things) and given the opportunity, you can make posts that offer a clearer, more "rational" (not the right word, for the right idea :oops: ) in the sense of where you're coming from, etc.... maybe our being able to see more of you and get to know your "style" on things, will help circumvent this sort of OMG moments. Barring that, I'm more than willing to look over whatever you feel like posting and maybe give you some pointers on it BEFORE it goes public ;)
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby derrida » 03 Dec 2010, 13:25

Craig Browning wrote:PsiSearch... firstly, you didn't use proper terminology in your post; the bit DB was doing was supposedly testing a DOWSER not some demonstration in Muscle Reading or related techniques (I happen to do both... or maybe I should say, I did it for a long time, kindof hard to do from a wheelchair :( ). The thing is, you seem to be jumping the gun with certain things or, at minimum, not fully understanding (in this case, what DB was doing) what the subject & contexts are and thus, employ the proper terms for describing things and (this is important) clarifying your perspectives and/or reason behind the post.

Most of us here are pretty kick-back and get along even though we don't agree on certain issues. One issue most of us do agree on though, is to keep your posts as clear as you can when it comes to what you're talking about but in doing so, presenting yourself as someone that knows a bit about both, the skeptical/rationalists points of view and, if at all possible, that of the believer... Understandably, the latter is quite difficult for most who see themselves as being intellectually superior/savvy than anyone that might profess belief in various things, but then I've seen some very well known "cynics" express a softer, more tolerable side on things, from time to time. :twisted:

I don't know exactly how to "help" you or, for that matter, if this particular post simply didn't "take right" (as you'd intended to express things) and given the opportunity, you can make posts that offer a clearer, more "rational" (not the right word, for the right idea :oops: ) in the sense of where you're coming from, etc.... maybe our being able to see more of you and get to know your "style" on things, will help circumvent this sort of OMG moments. Barring that, I'm more than willing to look over whatever you feel like posting and maybe give you some pointers on it BEFORE it goes public ;)


hey craig.. just wanting to ask you
since you are a worldwide known creator of magic
how do you feel of those torrent sites were you can download magic for free?
i just recently encounter one of those because an alarm was given on the magiccafe about it
i think is gotta be awful isnt?
like any other magician i have created my own effects which i dont sell nor tell.. cause i wanted to be mine
i think is gotta be awfull to see them going for nothing to 15 year olds with isdn connection right?
just asking..
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Dec 2010, 06:49

hey craig.. just wanting to ask you
since you are a worldwide known creator of magic
how do you feel of those torrent sites were you can download magic for free?
i just recently encounter one of those because an alarm was given on the magiccafe about it
i think is gotta be awful isnt?
like any other magician i have created my own effects which i dont sell nor tell.. cause i wanted to be mine
i think is gotta be awfull to see them going for nothing to 15 year olds with isdn connection right?
just asking


You do the Cafe?! :shock:

Don't ever mention my name over there, you'll get banned! :lol:

The biggest magic exposure site going is the U.S. Patent Office... rather than dropping the $60k on a Copperfield styled Flying Illusion just drop in and pick up a copy of the schematic... same can be said about hundreds of other major effects... which is why many of us stopped paying for the protection and going through the formalities, generating peer-witness and confirmation as to who developed what, etc. But there is another practice that many effect developers have stopped doing that I believe needs to come back in vogue... it would put a for certain end to the problem for which you speak...

With the younger kids the formula is simple; daddy finds his balls, removes his belt and straps Jr.s little butt until it glows and then suspends his magic & computer privileges for a month or two (that's how it worked when I was a kid... it worked that way for most of world history, until the pacifists & feminist started making policy and establishing Political Correctness...)

With the older culprits that should know better, I'd start with the old Carney favorite; some slap gloves and about two minutes in an alley... if they do it again, I'd have to Italian on their butts... hammer + hands = WHAM-CRUSH! Look Ma, no more magic tricks from this punk!


If you haven't noticed, I believe in taking a very direct "hands on" approach... not only to the one's guilty of the posting but the owners of the Torrent Sites and anyone else along the bunny trail (including those that download the data).



NOW FOR THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS ISSUE... Before the Internet and all the corruption it's allowed to crop up and become a part of culture, people actually spoke to one another and interacted... phones were used to SPEAK with one another rather than play games and perpetuate bad grammar & spelling habits as they do today... but back in those times FRIENDS would share books with one another and too, you could go to these places called "libraries" that had books on all kinds of subjects, including recent releases (and some golden oldies) on magic. Just as you could get these books at the library (for free, no less) you could typically borrow them from friends and even photocopy articles straight from the books, without any kind of fear of retribution by some anal retentive publisher/ego-driven (self-published) author.

I've written several books that are still in print, for the magic industry and to tell you the truth, I've given more away than I've sold and it's not because they don't sell (they do and do well) but because I'm a sucker when it comes to newbies wanting to actually LEARN. I have no problem sharing in that I'm not out chasing the dollar or trying to be "Mr. Big"... I'm already in the history books so it don't matter to me. I love the craft and my job is to preserve, protect and nurture it into growing. As best I'm able that's what I do.

So... no, I see no wrong when a friend shares "a" book with a friend, it's natural and how we were taught to interact socially, when we were young. It used to be how society and being human was defined, I'm concerned as to what today's gadgetry addiction is going to do to that... to us? Just look at how it's encouraged extreme criminal activity and "immorality" in recent times... and yes, I'm talking about the whole Wikileaks drama (that GROUP needs to see a military inquisition and then shot for espionage and several other things I can think of).
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Dec 2010, 20:14

As much as I have enjoyed the contents of the last two posts.... BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE.....
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby Arouet » 04 Dec 2010, 22:03

I'm sure PS will be back to continue the discussion - at some point!
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby really? » 04 Dec 2010, 22:57

My two cents after some help
I have no inside information -- this is just my magic background talking.

1) There is no "right spot" -- any spot is correct.

2) There is no 'directing' going on. Sooner or later the rods cross because they can't 'not cross' -- muscle fatigue, random movements... eventually they seem to move on their own. The hard part might be getting the dialogue in before they do. You can do an experiment yourself. Use a similar set of rods (not hard to make at all) and walk around with them while blindfolded. Ask someone to watch you and tell you when they have crossed.

Think of it in those terms and see what you can come up with. Add in that the information in the note wasn't obtained until the guy was already walking around and note the significant edits, especially when the pack is removed and before he starts digging. This is not continuous footage.




You sparked an idea I hadn't thought of obviously; bury many canisters with the dowsers forged signature so no matter where he stops the rods will have crossed over one or very near one. Something rather similar to a card trick I saw P&T do.
PS look before you leap just to make sure there's water in the pool.
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Re: Derren Brown - Ideomotor Effect Debunked!

Postby derrida » 05 Dec 2010, 01:08

really? wrote:My two cents after some help
I have no inside information -- this is just my magic background talking.

1) There is no "right spot" -- any spot is correct.

2) There is no 'directing' going on. Sooner or later the rods cross because they can't 'not cross' -- muscle fatigue, random movements... eventually they seem to move on their own. The hard part might be getting the dialogue in before they do. You can do an experiment yourself. Use a similar set of rods (not hard to make at all) and walk around with them while blindfolded. Ask someone to watch you and tell you when they have crossed.

Think of it in those terms and see what you can come up with. Add in that the information in the note wasn't obtained until the guy was already walking around and note the significant edits, especially when the pack is removed and before he starts digging. This is not continuous footage.




You sparked an idea I hadn't thought of obviously; bury many canisters with the dowsers forged signature so no matter where he stops the rods will have crossed over one or very near one. Something rather similar to a card trick I saw P&T do.
PS look before you leap just to make sure there's water in the pool.


is it the card trick they did on their underwater special where they buried the aces?
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