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What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman ?

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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 01 Jul 2010, 20:38

NinjaPuppy wrote:

Where the heck does it say that TB and AIDS are the same disease? I see no evidence that ayurevda cures AIDS. One patient responding favorably does not constitute a cure for AIDS. Especially when I see that the claimed disease is TB and not AIDS. Did I miss something here?

No, you didn't miss anything NInja. The simple explanation is that IC is saying a doctor curred AIDS when, in fact, there's nothing to show the patient had AIDS to begin with. Confirming AIDS takes blood tests. The "doctor" appears to be diagnosing off of symptoms. How can someone claim to cure something they don't even know is disease to begin with? They don't. No proof Ayurveda cures AIDS. "Case closed."
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 01 Jul 2010, 21:55

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Indigo Child wrote:Try again.

Dr Shantakumar has allegedly cured an AIDS victim using the Ayurveda treatment for Rajayksha and treated dozens more. If Rajayksha
is not AIDS, then why are AIDS victims responding well to treatment of Rajayksha?

Before putting any input into this topic, I wanted to see exactly where it might go. IMO, it is going nowhere fast and is on the verge of becoming a 'locked topic' but first I have a simple question.

    Is Rajayksha misspelled?
All I can find on a Google search is rajayakshama. Rajayakshama comes up in a Google search as Tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is not AIDS.

Now.... I will spend the better part of my morning reading a buttload of provided links to see if my search is absolutely off the mark. Meanwhile, I expect everyone participating here to keep your comments limited to the information provided.


Actually NP this thread has not drifted off topic that much here's why. I posted this to bring to light that those of us that are skeptical by nature are the ones that remind everyone that it is prudent to examine claims to see how much merit they have Now contrast that approach against those that sit on the otherside of the fence like Indigochild who takes to heart because they have appeal on a philosophical level. You've seen them in this thread repeatably state Ayurveda can cure many things and is superior to western style medicine. Even after they've been shown where they are wrong they still insist they are right as in the case of AIDS being the king of disease.
As a whole and to my knowledge there's never been a concerted effort from any organization, group or collection of like minded people within the New Age community to denounce any belief as having no merit. That's why this thread hasn't drifted all that far away from my original intent.

I've been to the hospital numerous times in my life and have had the help of many Indian doctors. In all those encounters not once did any of them suggest Ayurvedic medicinal treatment as the course of action let alone the best course of action. I like to add that there might be some therapeutic even curative benefits from Ayurveda medicine, but it is certainly not the magic bullet Indigochild claims it is nor is it superior.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby NinjaPuppy » 01 Jul 2010, 22:37

really? wrote:Actually NP this thread has not drifted off topic that much here's why. As a whole and to my knowledge there's never been a concerted effort from any organization, group or collection of like minded people within the New Age community to denounce any belief as having no merit. That's why this thread hasn't drifted all that far away from my original intent.

Yes, I agree. I saw that after re-reading the entire topic.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 02:01

I am not sure what is controversial here about Rajayakshma being AIDS.

Let us look at this step by step:

Ayurvedic practitioner Dr G. Shanthakumar, based in Mumbai, India, claims that ayurveda identified AIDS over 2,000 years ago. The ancient malady was termed Rajayakshma (the king of diseases) and its symptoms were identical to AIDS going by the descriptions of Vagbhata in Ashtanga Hridayam (Chikitsitam section) and its supplementary text, the Ashtanga Sangraham, as well as in another ayurvedic classic, Charaka Samhita (Nidanam section).


He believes that Rajayakshma described in ancient texts must be AIDS, because the symptoms
described in the ancient texts are the same. They are:

The major symptoms are:

(1) drastic loss of weight
(2) fatigue and lethargy
(3) susceptibility to allergies and contagious diseases
(4) skin irritations
(5) bronchial disorders, often leading to tuberculosis of the lungs
(6) damage to intestinal flora resulting in diarrhoea, dysentery, gastritis and
(7) wide fluctuations in body temperature.

Significantly, the root causes of this disease are:

(1) unhygienic sexual practices such as anal intercourse
(2) indiscriminate intercourse with multiple partners
(3) not cleaning the genitals after coitus
(4) washing the body with contaminated or dirty water
(5) bestiality
(6) contaminated blood.


The fact that Rajaykshma is AIDS is controversial, but Dr Shantakumar believes they are the same.
So he is treating AIDS as per the prescriptions for Rajaykhma. Has he suceeded? Yes, according to
the article:

The Healed Ones
Dr Shanthakumar first treated an AIDS victim in 1992: "About eight years ago, an AIDS patient met me. I applied the ayurvedic therapy keeping his symptoms in mind. He would collapse with high temperature once a week, though he did not harbor malarial parasites. After a month`s treatment, the fever and shivering subsided. After three months, his weight increased from 43 kg to 48 kg. After ten months, he tested negative for HIV


This shows he succesfully cured an AIDS paitent using Ayurvedic treatment.

http://www.lifepositive.com/body/body-h ... -drugs.asp
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 02:06

Why is the discussion of Yoga and Ayurveda relevant to this discussion? It may
have gone slightly off-topic, but what it shows is that things that skeptics consider
"woo" actually are very beneficial. So us so-called believers have very good reason to
support what they call "woo"
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby NinjaPuppy » 02 Jul 2010, 02:37

Indigo Child wrote:Why is the discussion of Yoga and Ayurveda relevant to this discussion? It may
have gone slightly off-topic, but what it shows is that things that skeptics consider
"woo" actually are very beneficial. So us so-called believers have very good reason to
support what they call "woo"

However, examples such as this do not do much in the way of proof.
The major symptoms are:

(1) drastic loss of weight
(2) fatigue and lethargy
(3) susceptibility to allergies and contagious diseases
(4) skin irritations
(5) bronchial disorders, often leading to tuberculosis of the lungs
(6) damage to intestinal flora resulting in diarrhoea, dysentery, gastritis and
(7) wide fluctuations in body temperature.

Now this:
According to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, a person is considered to have AIDS when they have a T cell count (also called CD4 cell count) of 200 or less (healthy T cell levels range from 500 to 1500) or they have an AIDS-defining condition. The AIDS-defining conditions are:

· Candidiasis

· Cervical cancer (invasive)

· Coccidioidomycosis, Cryptococcosis, Cryptosporidiosis

· Cytomegalovirus disease

· Encephalopathy (HIV-related)

· Herpes simplex (severe infection)

· Histoplasmosis

· Isosporiasis

· Kaposi's sarcoma

· Lymphoma (certain types)

· Mycobacterium avium complex

· Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia

· Pneumonia (recurrent)

· Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy

· Salmonella septicemia (recurrent)

· Toxoplasmosis of the brain

· Tuberculosis

· Wasting syndrome

People who are not infected with HIV may also develop these diseases; the presence of any one of these conditions does not mean the person has AIDS. To be diagnosed with AIDS, a person must be infected with HIV.

Some people infected with HIV may develop a disease that is less serious than AIDS, referred to as AIDS Related Complex (ARC). ARC is a condition caused by the AIDS virus in which the patient tests positive for AIDS infection and has a specific set of clinical symptoms. However, ARC patients' symptoms are often less severe than those with classic AIDS because the degree of destruction of the immune system has not progressed as far as it has in patients with classic AIDS.

Symptoms of ARC may include loss of appetite, weight loss, fever, night sweats, skin rashes, diarrhea, tiredness, lack of resistance to infection or swollen lymph nodes.

Note: Not everyone who has been infected with HIV develops AIDS. Very rarely, some individuals can be infected with HIV yet maintain normal immune function and general good health even after 20 years of infection.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 02:43

Here is another web site, by an Ayurvedic research institiute that also draws the parallels
between Rajaykshma and AIDS: http://www.ayurved-for-cancer.org/trust ... /aids.html

However, most impressive is the various long term cases documented on their site, where cancer paitents
are succesfully treated and and cured of cancer using Ayurvedic treatment. Here is an example:
http://www.ayurved-for-cancer.org/achie ... case1.html

In other words my original claim that Yoga and Ayurveda can cure diseases which the West consider incurable
like diabetes, cancer, aids etc is proven to be true. Thus establishing clearly that they are superior to allopathic
medicine. The fact of the matter is, until modern times, Western medicine was 3000 years behind these systems.
It is still behind.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 02:49

However, examples such as this do not do much in the way of proof.


Yeah, but clearly an ancient text isn't going to talk in terms of T cell counts(CD4 level)

The fact still remains, whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, AIDS is responding to Ayuvedic
treatment for rajaykshma. If Dr Shantakumar is to be believed, it has even been able to
completely cure one of his patients of AIDS.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 03:09

Indigo Child wrote:
However, examples such as this do not do much in the way of proof.


Yeah, but clearly an ancient text isn't going to talk in terms of T cell counts(CD4 level)

The fact still remains, whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, AIDS is responding to Ayuvedic
treatment for rajaykshma. If Dr Shantakumar is to be believed, it has even been able to
completely cure one of his patients of AIDS.

Let's get even more simpler. How do you know this modern-day patient of Dr. Shantakumar had AIDS? If you say his blood work confirmed it, then I would pass you. If you say no blood work was done, but he displayed the symptoms of AIDS, then I would fail you. According to you and Dr. Shantakumar's statement, he displayed the symptoms of AIDS and there is no mention of blood work. As such, you fail. Miserably. Sorry.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 02 Jul 2010, 03:38

Indigo Child wrote:
However, examples such as this do not do much in the way of proof.


Yeah, but clearly an ancient text isn't going to talk in terms of T cell counts(CD4 level)

The fact still remains, whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, AIDS is responding to Ayuvedic [oh now AIDS is just responding]
treatment for rajaykshma. If Dr Shantakumar is to be believed, which you do it has even been able to
completely cure one of his patients of AIDS.


You see what you want to see.
Ayurvedic treatment is beneficial mainly in stage I & II (according to WHO staging), where Antiretroviral treatment is not recommended.
In these stages, the medicine enhances immunity, relieves symptoms, improves general condition & thus delays progression of the disease towards AIDS due to it’s Rasayana action.
Female Child Welfare Research Project - Bhartiya Sanskriti Trust Ayurvedic treatment is useful in stage III & IV, when patient can not tolerate antiretroviral treatment due to severe side – effects or in drug intolerance.


Relief from symptoms should not be mistaken to mean the patient is cured. You do know that any application of naturally derive plant remedies are allopathic.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 04:08

Indigo Child wrote:
The fact still remains, whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, AIDS is responding to Ayuvedic
treatment for rajaykshma. If Dr Shantakumar is to be believed, it has even been able to
completely cure one of his patients of AIDS.

[/quote]
I still don't understand how one cannot see the error in this statement.
"whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, AIDS is responding to Ayuvedic..."
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you were to re-word it and say "whether rajaykshma is AIDS or not, his symptoms from whatever his illness seemed to respond to Ayuvedic..."
(Of course, all that is still assuming there is a real Dr. G. Shantakumar who does real ayuvedic treatments)
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 04:34

Back to semantics again.

Now you are contesting three levels of meanings:

cure
treatment
Reducing symptoms

A cure is when the disease is completely removed
Treatment is when the disease is lessened, but not cured
Reducing symptoms is when a symptom of a disease is reduced, but the disease itself may not be lessened

In the cases I have pointed out Ayurveda has both been able to cure and treat diseases:

In the case of Dr Shantakumar, one of his patients who had AIDS, tested for HIV negative at the end of treatment. It's a cure, because the disease is gone.
In the case of the cancer patients I have showed, there was a complete remission of cancer and no further treatment was required, at the end of their treatment. It's a cure,
because the disease is gone.

What is clear here is Ayurveda does cure these diseases. It may not cure them all the time, but when it does not cure, it treats. Case closed.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 04:41

Indigo Child wrote:Back to semantics again.

Now you are contesting three levels of meanings:

cure
treatment
Reducing symptoms

A cure is when the disease is completely removed
Treatment is when the disease is lessened, but not cured
Reducing symptoms is when a symptom of a disease is reduced, but the disease itself may not be lessened

In the cases I have pointed out Ayurveda has both been able to cure and treat diseases:

In the case of Dr Shantakumar, one of his patients who had AIDS, tested for HIV negative at the end of treatment. It's a cure, because the disease is gone.
In the case of the cancer patients I have showed, there was a complete remission of cancer and no further treatment was required, at the end of their treatment. It's a cure,
because the disease is gone.

What is clear here is Ayurveda does cure these diseases. It may not cure them all the time, but when it does not cure, it treats. Case closed.

You are having a difficult time understanding my point. Not sure why as it is quite simple. Let me make it even more simple. Please answer the following question: How do you know the patient had AIDS virus?
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 02 Jul 2010, 04:54

Because the article says so. The patient had AIDS. At the end of treatment he did not.

It does not get anymore simpler.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 02 Jul 2010, 05:04

Indigo Child wrote:Because the article says so. The patient had AIDS. At the end of treatment he did not.

It does not get anymore simpler.

No it does not say he had AIDS. It said he had the symptoms of AIDS. The difference between having the disease and displaying the symptoms is as different as night and day Indigo Child. The point I was trying to make earlier was that there are many diseases that display the same symptoms of AIDS. So, without a blood test, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE PATIENT HAD AIDS? You don't! As such, you can't say the patient was cured of AIDS. If you continue to argue this point, I will have to question your intelligence.
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