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What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 01:18

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ciscop wrote:so he gets to use the f word
and i get a final warning for saying nothing? what did i say that was offensive? Nothing!
i didnt say anything

Since you decided to bring it up, allow me to remind you how many times I have cut you slack on your rather colorful comments that border on nothing more than personal attacks. I have politely asked you to cool it or tone down your cynicism and it's always the same thing..... "What did I do?" or "OK" but nothing ever changes with you. Last chance. Period.

You've been temporarily banned more than once, so don't go giving me any BS about being clueless as to "Why?" Basically, this is your third and final shot. I don't care who you do it to and I don't care what the topic is. You have been given fair warning.


nah
you are just singling me out because i am not a believer
craig has used the f word, has called people douchebags and compare them to anal stuff
not a single ban for craig
and yet, i am the one with a warning
talking about cognitive dissonance uh?

the only wrong thing i have done here
is to proposed you as a moderator
go back and read
it was me the first one that nominated you
what a stupid thing to do
is like that fellow from the french revolution.. Joseph Guillotine that got his head cut by the same machine he invented
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Jun 2010, 02:22

So you are telling me that your first two bannings don't exist?
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 02:39

NinjaPuppy wrote:So you are telling me that your first two bannings don't exist?


the first one
i called dave koenig a retard
Agree on that
(why not banning craig if he uses the f word?)

the second one
i used retard again on kevin kane
a guy you banned

craig has used the f word and also called me an asswipe
yet that is ok in your world
not a single ban
but if i tell someone to wash the dishes, that´s worst
really?? is that bad for the wiccans to tell someone to wash dishes? just asking
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby caniswalensis » 08 Jun 2010, 02:53

Ciscop, if I may be so bold, I would offer some advice to you, my fellow skeptic:

Stop worrying about the minutia of who can get away with what. Rise above the methods of insults and profanity. you do that and the bannings will take care of themselves.

You are a funny guy, and I think an intelligent guy. You should be winning people over to critical thinking, not alienating them from it.

I think we could have a lot of fun here if everyone quit making each other mad. :)

Best wishes, Canis
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 03:00

caniswalensis wrote:Ciscop, if I may be so bold, I would offer some advice to you, my fellow skeptic:

Stop worrying about the minutia of who can get away with what. Rise above the methods of insults and profanity. you do that and the bannings will take care of themselves.

You are a funny guy, and I think an intelligent guy. You should be winning people over to critical thinking, not alienating them from it.

I think we could have a lot of fun here if everyone quit making each other mad. :)

Best wishes, Canis


totally agree
i did try to have discussions with kevin and dave
but they got on my nerve and exploded

ill try to do as you said

im still curious how washing dishes is offensive and gets you a ¨last warning¨
i know washing dishes isnt bad in mexico, is it cultural? maybe in the south of united states is wrong to tell somebody that?
is it because she is a woman that she gets angry and that? in that case i didnt tell her that i told craig
how i got on his nerves for telling somebody that?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Jun 2010, 06:29

ciscop wrote:im still curious how washing dishes is offensive and gets you a ¨last warning¨
i know washing dishes isnt bad in mexico, is it cultural? maybe in the south of united states is wrong to tell somebody that?
is it because she is a woman that she gets angry and that? in that case i didnt tell her that i told craig
how i got on his nerves for telling somebody that?

I had no problem with the washing dishes comment. That was not why I gave you a 'last warning'. Besides, I don't even have to give you a 'last warning' or even a first and second warning. I did it because like Canis said, you are what seems like an intelligent guy and I also think you might have something interesting to add to this Forum. However you have pretty much continued to take advantage of politely put requests and ridicule many different members and their beliefs. With Craig, you have resorted to simply ridiculing him and his commentary. If Craig decides to stand up against you and your personal shots against him then Moderation is required but I don't see Craig provoking anyone first.
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 07:00

i do accept that i love to laugh
but your warning is out of place
since i didnt do anything wrong

is like pulling out a yellow card without me commiting a foul first (world cup approaches)

i didnt call craig anything he called me
yet, i received a last warning, thats what bothers me
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby really? » 08 Jun 2010, 11:49

NinjaPuppy wrote:I like to take my skeptical out for a spin piece by piece. In other words, I prefer to listen to all the available facts of a specific situation before I form an opinion about something. Then if possible, I like to give something my best shot up close and personal. Here's a few examples:

Astrology - A definite 'maybe'. I take that topic with a grain of salt because I suck at understanding it to any real level of comprehension.
ESP - Yup, I think it exists in some form or another but not in the way that TV showmen or Hollywood likes to portray it.
Ghosts - Yup, I think that ghosts exist but once again not in the way that TV or Hollywood portrays it.
UFO's - Yes, by definition 'unidentified flying objects' most certainly exist. IMO most of the good ones are classified Military test flights or some such explanation. Some life form from another planet? I think it's possible. Little green men with anal probes? No thank you.

Now before all of you skeptics start laughing your arses off as you usually do, allow me to elaborate on why I think the way I think. Let's take ESP as an example but toss out everything that is believed by many or sold to the world by the Silvia Browns. Take something that is proven by science, that being a birds ability to migrate thousands of miles by pure instinct or a newly hatched sea turtle that automatically knows to head into the water rather than go inland. Many species come into the world without any contact of what we humans call 'parents'. They rely on survival of the fittest that starts with the breeding process of two adult creatures. The female chooses instinctivly the most attractive and physically fit male in her proximity. The female then does her thing and in many species, from the first breath is taken as a solo creature with no patterning or teaching. That creature must survive on cold, hard instinct. Humans.... no dice. Many mammels...also no dice but reptiles and amphibians do pretty good for themselves as do the lower classes of the good old food chain right down to bacteria. Is it impossible to think that humans have some amount of instict that has been replaced or rewritten in the evolution of our DNA that may account for why some people have what we might deem a 'talent'? Even if that so called talent is the ability to cold read another person really, really well? A direct or correct 'hit' is a direct or correct hit, no matter how you slice it or what you want to call it. The reason for that correct hit is yet to be determined by what we call science. Meanwhile civilization has been duped into believing by many to think that this is some sort of special power or some God given thing by humans that may very well possess a heightened sense of awareness as well as the ability to BS others beyond normal human comprehension.


What you describe is far different than what people would call ESP. Should what you describe exist it would I feel better be described as subliminal sensory perception. ESP as it stands right now if it exists falls outside of the laws of physics.
Just a thought or two about astrology. it's not necessary to understand all of the arcana of astrology. What you do need to understand is
1. Ancient peoples had no idea what the they were looking at in the night sky
2. Had no comprehension of the vast distances between the celestial objects they saw and they from them.
3. Astrology does not explain why some objects have influence and others do not. Example: If Pluto has an influence so too do the newly discovered moons of Pluto. Yet astrologers can make accurate predictions whether they incorporate the new moons or not.
4. Astrological affects are independent from size, mass or distance. In other words all affects are equal despite size, mass or distance. Meaning every object in this solar system and all other celestial objects everywhere should have an influence.
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby Craig Browning » 08 Jun 2010, 19:43

Firstly, my apologies to all for letting my emotions get the best of me yesterday (it's been a crap week; MS Flares, PC crashes, etc.)but the "gent" I went off on has been poking at me in classic smart ass mode for weeks now, especially when it comes to exposing my illusion (for which other magicians have gotten onto him over) and his constant haranguing over my vocational choices, beliefs, points of view, etc. while all the while he is little more than the typical wannabe performer and opinionated armchair guru that's never gotten his feet dirty doing the work vs. reading all the theory. Like anyone, I loathe being damned by such small people; they try to come off as being "above" me on so many levels when they aren't even close to being on the same footing when it comes to actual experience and hands-on research around something "they" want to puff themselves up over and act superior about.

The way I was raised (to coin a phrase) "Skeptics" go out and physically investigate things. In the 40 years I've been involved with professional magic I've met less than a dozen self-professed skeptics that have actually done that work and I can assure you, that are not nearly as big mouthed as those who haven't done such work nor do they tend to be as childish when it comes to interaction in person or on the forums. As noted, I have never been treated by such people in the manner our friend here seems to insist on treating me (but then , he's just like all the other clones cut from said fabric). His attacks are, like the games played by most skeptics on-line, cleverly worded so they can come off looking like the victim once they push their target over the line... this is ubber-classic when it comes to folks with this mind-set. He escalated his attacks after I said "I should sue him" over exposing my illusion... not "mine" because I own one (which I don't) but "mine" because Ken Whitaker and I developed the thing... how would any of you feel seeing some jerk taunting you and deliberately taking jabs at you by constantly rubbing salt in a wound as horrid as this instance was.

What makes things worse is I just learned that this idiot doing the illusion was given the opportunity to re-shoot the set so he didn't expose the thing and he refused to do so (this coming from the girl in the box).

So yes, I have inferred that csicop is a bit less than human BECAUSE OF THESE ANTICS and some of his attacks prior to said video postings based on my views. It's not that I can't take the digs when they are based on some point of general disagreement but that this individual seems to have little to no respect for me directly or for that matter, the trade he claims to be part of (or else he'd not be exposing something here or elsewhere for shits & giggles, as he's admitted this does... not because of the flub-up but because he knows he's pissing someone off each time he does it.... how childish can you get?)

As stated elsewhere, I think it's jealousy in that he knows he couldn't develop an award winning illusion like Shadow Vision or anyone of the dozen or so other pieces I've either come up with on my own or co-developed with other notables. He knows that he will never be able to actually touch and work with the historical aspects of magic that I have, rub elbows with some of the very people I can call "friends" and perform in some of the top end facilities I've worked over the years such as Playboy, the Flamingo-Hilton, Palace Station Casino (and several of their other properties)... I think you all get the picture on that front, no?

I'm used to this sort of thing but I had hopes, given how comfy this forum seemed to be initially, that I wouldn't have to deal with such a low minded mentality here... I came here to get away from all the magic buffoons and still be able to have some semblance of mature conversation vs. pissing contests or seeing who's is bigger. For the most part there's not really been any kind of real "problem" except for those situations most recently generated by ciscop with the deliberate intent of getting this grumpy old bear pissed off... pissed off enough to go off on him and make him look like the victim... go figure :twisted:
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Jun 2010, 20:35

really? wrote:What you describe is far different than what people would call ESP. Should what you describe exist it would I feel better be described as subliminal sensory perception. ESP as it stands right now if it exists falls outside of the laws of physics

Since this is an open public Forum, the definition of any single term associated with the paranormal can be difficult. I think that the word ESP is thought of by many as 'mind reading'. That is how Hollywood and media sold it to the general public for decades. Beliefs become a game of semantics once the word 'science' comes into the mix.

really? wrote:Just a thought or two about astrology. it's not necessary to understand all of the arcana of astrology. What you do need to understand is
1. Ancient peoples had no idea what the they were looking at in the night sky
2. Had no comprehension of the vast distances between the celestial objects they saw and they from them.
3. Astrology does not explain why some objects have influence and others do not. Example: If Pluto has an influence so too do the newly discovered moons of Pluto. Yet astrologers can make accurate predictions whether they incorporate the new moons or not.
4. Astrological affects are independent from size, mass or distance. In other words all affects are equal despite size, mass or distance. Meaning every object in this solar system and all other celestial objects everywhere should have an influence.

As far as my comments about astrology, my basic reasons for not understanding it usually begins in the second chapter of any book that I have read. I understand basic astronomy. That's easy, it's a science with proof and clear definitions. Astrology is not a 'science' but it has been around much longer than most of the scientific findings and I find that interesting. Astrology is a subject that I personally would like to learn more about but it escapes my mental grasp.
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ProfWag » 08 Jun 2010, 21:13

Craig Browning wrote:
The way I was raised (to coin a phrase) "Skeptics" go out and physically investigate things. In the 40 years I've been involved with professional magic I've met less than a dozen self-professed skeptics that have actually done that work and I can assure you, that are not nearly as big mouthed as those who haven't done such work nor do they tend to be as childish when it comes to interaction in person or on the forums.

I must disagree with you Craig on this statement and here's why. I teach Management at a University. I have read, studied, and experienced the managerial theories that I teach. Do I personally go out and physically investigate these managerial theories on what I'm teaching? No, not very often. I have on occasion, but for the most part, I teach from the findings of others. As such, I feel that situation is similar to being a skeptic. I have read, studied, and experienced paranormal issues. Do I personally go out and physically investigate claims? No. I have a life with many other interrests and frankly, don't have time to investigate every ghost or psychic claim that I find. Dean Radin spent years and years doing his tests at Princeton, but unfortunately, I'm not privvy to grants and and support from the University to do my own research so I look at the peer reviewed journal articles and the results of those who are experts in that field, draw my own conclusionos and go from there.
Essentially, what your saying in that statement is that unless one physically investigates things, one should be a believer and, well, that's just irrational.
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 08 Jun 2010, 22:50

Craig Browning wrote:Firstly, my apologies to all for letting my emotions get the best of me yesterday (it's been a crap week; MS Flares, PC crashes, etc.)but the "gent" I went off on has been poking at me in classic smart ass mode for weeks now, especially when it comes to exposing my illusion (for which other magicians have gotten onto him over) and his constant haranguing over my vocational choices, beliefs, points of view, etc. while all the while he is little more than the typical wannabe performer and opinionated armchair guru that's never gotten his feet dirty doing the work vs. reading all the theory. Like anyone, I loathe being damned by such small people; they try to come off as being "above" me on so many levels when they aren't even close to being on the same footing when it comes to actual experience and hands-on research around something "they" want to puff themselves up over and act superior about.

The way I was raised (to coin a phrase) "Skeptics" go out and physically investigate things. In the 40 years I've been involved with professional magic I've met less than a dozen self-professed skeptics that have actually done that work and I can assure you, that are not nearly as big mouthed as those who haven't done such work nor do they tend to be as childish when it comes to interaction in person or on the forums. As noted, I have never been treated by such people in the manner our friend here seems to insist on treating me (but then , he's just like all the other clones cut from said fabric). His attacks are, like the games played by most skeptics on-line, cleverly worded so they can come off looking like the victim once they push their target over the line... this is ubber-classic when it comes to folks with this mind-set. He escalated his attacks after I said "I should sue him" over exposing my illusion... not "mine" because I own one (which I don't) but "mine" because Ken Whitaker and I developed the thing... how would any of you feel seeing some jerk taunting you and deliberately taking jabs at you by constantly rubbing salt in a wound as horrid as this instance was.

What makes things worse is I just learned that this idiot doing the illusion was given the opportunity to re-shoot the set so he didn't expose the thing and he refused to do so (this coming from the girl in the box).

So yes, I have inferred that csicop is a bit less than human BECAUSE OF THESE ANTICS and some of his attacks prior to said video postings based on my views. It's not that I can't take the digs when they are based on some point of general disagreement but that this individual seems to have little to no respect for me directly or for that matter, the trade he claims to be part of (or else he'd not be exposing something here or elsewhere for shits & giggles, as he's admitted this does... not because of the flub-up but because he knows he's pissing someone off each time he does it.... how childish can you get?)

As stated elsewhere, I think it's jealousy in that he knows he couldn't develop an award winning illusion like Shadow Vision or anyone of the dozen or so other pieces I've either come up with on my own or co-developed with other notables. He knows that he will never be able to actually touch and work with the historical aspects of magic that I have, rub elbows with some of the very people I can call "friends" and perform in some of the top end facilities I've worked over the years such as Playboy, the Flamingo-Hilton, Palace Station Casino (and several of their other properties)... I think you all get the picture on that front, no?

I'm used to this sort of thing but I had hopes, given how comfy this forum seemed to be initially, that I wouldn't have to deal with such a low minded mentality here... I came here to get away from all the magic buffoons and still be able to have some semblance of mature conversation vs. pissing contests or seeing who's is bigger. For the most part there's not really been any kind of real "problem" except for those situations most recently generated by ciscop with the deliberate intent of getting this grumpy old bear pissed off... pissed off enough to go off on him and make him look like the victim... go figure :twisted:


wait
i will only take jabs at you
if you take jabs at critical thinking, randi, jref, skepticism and me (for instance stop calling randi an old fart, stop with your references to him being gay, stop calling skeptics ass wipes i take all that as a personal attack, stop calling skepticism a religion cause it isnt a belief)
i dont mind your opinions, i mind your name calling

the last time you are the one that started
so, if you dont bother me i wont bother you
and yes, i know i have something on you with that illusion, just dont mess with me and i wont mess with you
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby caniswalensis » 09 Jun 2010, 00:09

ciscop wrote:
Craig Browning wrote:Firstly, my apologies to all for letting my emotions get the best of me yesterday (it's been a crap week; MS Flares, PC crashes, etc.)but the "gent" I went off on has been poking at me in classic smart ass mode for weeks now, especially when it comes to exposing my illusion (for which other magicians have gotten onto him over) and his constant haranguing over my vocational choices, beliefs, points of view, etc. while all the while he is little more than the typical wannabe performer and opinionated armchair guru that's never gotten his feet dirty doing the work vs. reading all the theory. Like anyone, I loathe being damned by such small people; they try to come off as being "above" me on so many levels when they aren't even close to being on the same footing when it comes to actual experience and hands-on research around something "they" want to puff themselves up over and act superior about.

The way I was raised (to coin a phrase) "Skeptics" go out and physically investigate things. In the 40 years I've been involved with professional magic I've met less than a dozen self-professed skeptics that have actually done that work and I can assure you, that are not nearly as big mouthed as those who haven't done such work nor do they tend to be as childish when it comes to interaction in person or on the forums. As noted, I have never been treated by such people in the manner our friend here seems to insist on treating me (but then , he's just like all the other clones cut from said fabric). His attacks are, like the games played by most skeptics on-line, cleverly worded so they can come off looking like the victim once they push their target over the line... this is ubber-classic when it comes to folks with this mind-set. He escalated his attacks after I said "I should sue him" over exposing my illusion... not "mine" because I own one (which I don't) but "mine" because Ken Whitaker and I developed the thing... how would any of you feel seeing some jerk taunting you and deliberately taking jabs at you by constantly rubbing salt in a wound as horrid as this instance was.

What makes things worse is I just learned that this idiot doing the illusion was given the opportunity to re-shoot the set so he didn't expose the thing and he refused to do so (this coming from the girl in the box).

So yes, I have inferred that csicop is a bit less than human BECAUSE OF THESE ANTICS and some of his attacks prior to said video postings based on my views. It's not that I can't take the digs when they are based on some point of general disagreement but that this individual seems to have little to no respect for me directly or for that matter, the trade he claims to be part of (or else he'd not be exposing something here or elsewhere for shits & giggles, as he's admitted this does... not because of the flub-up but because he knows he's pissing someone off each time he does it.... how childish can you get?)

As stated elsewhere, I think it's jealousy in that he knows he couldn't develop an award winning illusion like Shadow Vision or anyone of the dozen or so other pieces I've either come up with on my own or co-developed with other notables. He knows that he will never be able to actually touch and work with the historical aspects of magic that I have, rub elbows with some of the very people I can call "friends" and perform in some of the top end facilities I've worked over the years such as Playboy, the Flamingo-Hilton, Palace Station Casino (and several of their other properties)... I think you all get the picture on that front, no?

I'm used to this sort of thing but I had hopes, given how comfy this forum seemed to be initially, that I wouldn't have to deal with such a low minded mentality here... I came here to get away from all the magic buffoons and still be able to have some semblance of mature conversation vs. pissing contests or seeing who's is bigger. For the most part there's not really been any kind of real "problem" except for those situations most recently generated by ciscop with the deliberate intent of getting this grumpy old bear pissed off... pissed off enough to go off on him and make him look like the victim... go figure :twisted:


wait
i will only take jabs at you
if you take jabs at critical thinking, randi, jref, skepticism and me (for instance stop calling randi an old fart, stop with your references to him being gay, stop calling skeptics ass wipes i take all that as a personal attack, stop calling skepticism a religion cause it isnt a belief)
i dont mind your opinions, i mind your name calling

the last time you are the one that started
so, if you dont bother me i wont bother you
and yes, i know i have something on you with that illusion, just dont mess with me and i wont mess with you



Of course, a true adherent to logic & critical thought will never use low tactics like name calling or personal attacks, ad hominem attacks against public figures, even when those tactics are used against them.

They realize that no debate can ever truly be won by using such methods. The only thing accomplished is the shouting down of the opposite side, a result which should be abhorrent to anyone who values objective truth.

A true skeptic or critical thinker would simply point out the lack of value in these sorts of tactics while maintaining their intellectual integrity by not indulging in their use.

When a critical thinker encounters what they consider to be a false assertion, they attempt to refute it with objective facts & reasoned arguments. A true critical thinker never lashes out personally at the person making the assertion.

Regards, Canis
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ProfWag » 09 Jun 2010, 02:31

caniswalensis wrote:
Of course, a true adherent to logic & critical thought will never use low tactics like name calling or personal attacks, ad hominem attacks against public figures, even when those tactics are used against them.

They realize that no debate can ever truly be won by using such methods. The only thing accomplished is the shouting down of the opposite side, a result which should be abhorrent to anyone who values objective truth.

A true skeptic or critical thinker would simply point out the lack of value in these sorts of tactics while maintaining their intellectual integrity by not indulging in their use.

When a critical thinker encounters what they consider to be a false assertion, they attempt to refute it with objective facts & reasoned arguments. A true critical thinker never lashes out personally at the person making the assertion.

Regards, Canis

Well said Canis.
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Re: What Are You Skeptical of...and what do you believe?

Postby ciscop » 09 Jun 2010, 10:07

i get what you said cannis
i just dont follow your way
:D

over internet forums i doubt anybody will convert a guy that believes in dowsing but wont take tests into a critical thinker, a guy that believes in a mysterious mothman into a skeptic or a guy that believes a guy can live for 65 years without food into a rational human being. (living 65 years without food isnt rational)
thats not in the cards for them
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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