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How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

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How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby formosan » 26 May 2010, 22:34

I have not been active on this forum for weeks or months. I have been busy.

Now that I have taken a look at the level of debate, it seems that there are very few scepcops manning the barricades, and many threads are dominated by scoffers.

Who is to blame for this? I should accept some responsibility. I should have made more time gently guide the scoffers to the path of logic. However, that would have required effort on my part, and apparently I was too lazy to do that.

On the down side, I haven't become any more patient over the last few months, so I will limit myself to offering dry facts and documents.

Here is one such dry document:
Authors:Toulmin, Rieke, Janik
Title: An Introduction to Reasoning

Here's a sample quote:
... to argue effectively, the first thing ...is to discover how much common ground they already share: that is, what things they are both prepared to accept as not needing to be questioned or established, at least for the purposes of their present argument.
-Toulmin et al. , An Introduction to Reasoning


I am not going to spend a lot of time here, so I will have to make my time count.

Here's my first goal: to prevent scoffers from obfuscating the issue of how much common ground is shared.

On this forum and on many others, scoffers love to start dust-ups and to obscure how much common ground the participants share. This ensures a tiring exchange of insults with "more heat than light."

Open question: How much time do you think you should spend on debate? How do you plan to make your time effective and efficient?
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ProfWag » 26 May 2010, 23:03

You really shouldn't have to spend hardly any time at all debating, especially if you listen to me since I'm always right... ;-)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby Nostradamus » 26 May 2010, 23:45

many threads are dominated by scoffers.

That's skeptic, not scoffer. If you read the threads you will see people posting evidence for and against an issue. I have personally posted a lot of articles about things I do not believe in just to feel out ideas and to learn. I have posted a string of things on a psychic searching for a lost young man as well as ghost stories. Whether I believe in them or not does not mean that something cannot be learned from these issues. Just because I may not believe does not make it so.

Please remember that the majority of the posts are not the "everything not mainstream must be true" or the scoffer mentality. There are a range of opinions and facts expressed here.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ProfWag » 27 May 2010, 02:40

Nostradamus wrote:
many threads are dominated by scoffers.

That's skeptic, not scoffer. If you read the threads you will see people posting evidence for and against an issue. I have personally posted a lot of articles about things I do not believe in just to feel out ideas and to learn. I have posted a string of things on a psychic searching for a lost young man as well as ghost stories. Whether I believe in them or not does not mean that something cannot be learned from these issues. Just because I may not believe does not make it so.

Please remember that the majority of the posts are not the "everything not mainstream must be true" or the scoffer mentality. There are a range of opinions and facts expressed here.

Very true ND. I was the one that posted the helicopter on the Egyptian wall picture asking for thoughts. One cannot be a critical thinker if one doesn't look at all sides and I think most of the skeptics on here do that. In fact, it's why we're here. I don't believe in Bigfoot. I could spend all day on the JREF forum reading supporting info about why there is no Bigfoot. However, would I really be learning anything listening to only those that already support my belief? I think not...
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ciscop » 27 May 2010, 03:13

and i posted the one of ricky martin being gay
but i dont like to brag about it

:D
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ProfWag » 27 May 2010, 03:46

ciscop wrote:and i posted the one of ricky martin being gay
but i dont like to brag about it

:D

So, you see Formosan, we are an open minded group of skeptics who are open for debate as long as it's not silly... :-)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ciscop » 27 May 2010, 03:59

ProfWag wrote:
ciscop wrote:and i posted the one of ricky martin being gay
but i dont like to brag about it

:D

So, you see Formosan, we are an open minded group of skeptics who are open for debate as long as it's not silly... :-)



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
you made me spill coffee out of my nose!!!

good one!!
hahahahahaha
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby really? » 27 May 2010, 11:43

I like this it makes me titter. Formosan said :
I should have made more time gently guide the scoffers to the path of logic
I just wonder where the logic of skepticism leads me or any other scoffer sorry, skeptic to err in the wrong ?
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby Craig Browning » 27 May 2010, 23:00

Many years ago, when I was living in the L.A. area, I used to go down to the Farmer's Market in Beverly Hills... home of fresh food and the Hisedic Jewish Community... which is exactly why I loved going there; I could sit for hours nibbling on fresh bread, cheese, etc. while reading or writing and eavesdropping -- listening to the Rabbi cuss and discuss the scriptures.

Originally they seemed to speak only Yiddish but they soon realized that I was there to learn so the English became more prevalent and from time to time they'd even ask me a question, drawing me into the fray... it was one of the most enlightening summers of my life and one that I can superimposed onto this forum in that we are something like that gathering of minds.

For most of the time I've been here I've found it pleasurable though I do get a bit bent when I have had to repeat things dozens of times and no one (the scoffers) want to see and accept the common ground facts. It's as if they are so vested into the habit of questioning things that simplicity is thrown out the window with the bath water... :o

By all means, looking at the strange and surreal demands that we ask questions and too, obliges us to DISCUSS things from both, the analytical as well as the metaphysical side of possibility/plausibility. This is the only time one actually finds themselves standing on those mid-points of an issue the old sages referred to as "Wisdom" or "Harmonium" -- when we BALANCE issues in a way that allows a sense of resolve even when said resolve may be temporary. As we mature and learn more the time will come when more discussion and consideration is warranted and opinions/accepted points of view, can shift and do so in ways that are empowering rather than stifling.

Stagnation is not healthy and yet, when we dig our heels into the earth with a mind that's made-up this is exactly what we are doing; stagnating and refusing to actually grow beyond a given level.

How is this healthy or even Helpful?

It is a position that creates more hurt than healing; rifts between friends as well as family -- tears within our own soul and emotional base. We become bitter and determined to force our view point simply because we don't want to be alone in our heads, carrying this "cross" as it were, that we've made for ourselves; our ego convincing us that we can't change our position without looking like a fool so we just justify in our head, that we are right and all those that buy into the mid-stream course, are fools.

Yes, I'm speaking in extremes but time and space is short... and too, many here do not like to read anything more than a paragraph or two... to hell with any sort of presentation and clarification. Especially when such positions seem to meld the surreal with the real -- the logical with the illogical -- the tangible with the non-tangible. Yet, this is how the world really is, so why aren't we looking at things thus?

Ok... I'm being partly defensive here but at the same time I'm trying to encourage the idea of fairness. The more cynical side of view has a place but MUST likewise accept the fact that the opposing pov can agree with you so long as those hosting either point of view choose to move towards center; it's all the same, different only by degree. So if I move closer to your way of seeing things and you move towards my perspective, we can actually COMMUNICATE and find "compromise" -- a collective point of view that sustains the position shared by either "side".

The issue, to me at least, is one of possibility, probability, and plausibility vs. definite immovable "this is the only way" ideologies. ;)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ProfWag » 28 May 2010, 00:28

It's not so much a point of view, but a personality trait and that will NEVER be resolved. It's my personality to want to see proof of things. Regardless of how many Schwartz or Radin experiments you send my way, if they don't have the proof then I'm not going to budge from my stance. Conversely, there are personalities that see the wonder in things and don't need the proof, only evidence. There are still others that don't need evidence, only what someone tells them. And remember, there are as many personalities as there are people in the world. Hopefully, we can all agree that one personality may or may not be better than another. Just because Craig or Ninja believes that reading cards can tell something about a person or an event doesn't mean they are bad people and similarly, just because I want to see the proof in that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. At least, I'd hope not...
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ciscop » 28 May 2010, 01:29

and just because i post this link
it doesnt makes me an exposer, nor an asswipe nor a bad person althought craig thinks so


enjoy! :lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ProfWag » 28 May 2010, 01:35

"And I believe in equality. Equality for all! No matter how stupid they are or how much better I am than they are." - Steve Martin
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby Craig Browning » 28 May 2010, 20:46

No... you're still being a deliberate jerk though CSICOP, when it comes to that link. You are also proving my point as to how skeptics love to be bullies.

ProfWag hit on something I've always pondered... if we know rationally/analytically/scientifically that some people are born with a natural penchant to ask questions and not accept things at face value and that others are born with a propensity leaning towards the fantastic, WHY IN THE HELL do we keep on riding the bloody merrie-go-round?

I'm a bit cursed in that I go both ways :shock: ... well, when it comes to the whole paranormal thing at least... :mrgreen: Whenever I see or hear of something fantastic or even experience something strange, I have to investigate it. I can't help myself, I want to see if I can find a down to earth cause for the effect. I emphasize this because the skeptic's world can get carried away with all kinds of anything but down to earth theories as to what causes this or that to happen as well as its "rationalizing" modes (better known as excuse building from where I came from).

I've had it proven to me more than a few times, the fact that either side is just as right as they are wrong. I can't help but feel that any HONEST human being that does the footwork and isn't letting the current Gospel (whatever that may be and from whichever source it exudes from) to be their only foundation upon which to stand. It's a matter of KNOWING not blind faith, that allows me to move through life with my head held up. I have the funny feeling that this is why most of the famed Martyrs in history endured the things they were put through; they simply knew something as truth and refused to deny it. Faith can be changed but knowledge of something perceived as proven (personal) fact cannot.
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby mmreed » 28 May 2010, 22:09

Actually, regurgitating exposure is nearly as bad as the exposure itself.

When folks post things like this is become viral, and damaging. Yes the performer exposed some of it. But by continual posting of this, ciscop is pretty much "exposing by proxy"

As a magician, mentalist, whatever term you choose, it is our responsibility to safeguard the secrets of the arts, and hold them in respect. This means that if some assclown on TV exposes something, that you do not foster promotion of it.

Granted there is no real legal recourse in posting a link of this nature, but it comes down to ethics and doing the right thing. People spend a great deal of time and money developing effects, and this type of "proxied exposure" serves nothing positive. It only serves to continue the exposure, and feed the knock off makers with ideas of how things are done.

Reading over all of the posts, I will step out and say that I think much of this "proxied exposure" is a result of people needing to feed their own egos... a "look at me!!" cry for attention. When you break it down to the basic psychological level, its really no different than a tattle tale running to mommy in a need for attention and some type of false feedback to help them feel important.

Forums are a funny thing - they seem to be the "Popeye's Spinach" for the egomaniacs.

Those of you out there reading this thread, understand that the right thing to do in matters of exposure is to simply not pass it along. It will only serve to damage the community. It does nothing positive. Conduct yourself with class and be respectful of others intellectual creations. You will only come out the winner by doing so.
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Re: How much time and effort should be spent on debate?

Postby ciscop » 28 May 2010, 22:13

did you said something?
im sorry i was too busy
watching this longer version of this trick


you started with the name calling craig browning
you know? if i change my signature to this, with the amount of posts that i post here
it would be the first thing it will come on google if somebody googles your name
thats a funny thought isnt?
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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