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Why I think astrology is false

Discuss Divination, Fortune Telling - Astrology, Tarot, Runes, I Ching, Tea Leaves, etc. and Predictions.

Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 04 Sep 2009, 22:01

Hi Don. Welcome to the forum and thanks for the post. I have several comments and questions based on your input to me, but some of my questions may be different based on how you answer a couple questions first.
Before I begin, however, I freely admitted that I don’t know very much about astrology, yet I immediately get criticized which makes me feel that I shouldn’t post my opinions or comments because of that lack of knowledge. I am here to learn and to clarify if my opinions are accurate or need changing. I would hope you and others are here for that reason also. Otherwise, that would make someone a pseudo-believer, would it not?
Next, you say astrology is far more accurate than two people born on the same day in the same hospital. I’m assuming that you mean that you need to know the time of birth also? Is that correct? How accurate for the time of birth do you need to be to produce a valuable reading?
I will say that I partially agree with your comment: “We’d have to look at people born at the same place and at the same time. The chances of which are highly unlikely.” Although, I can easily show hospitals that have many, many births per day (ask me for reference if you’d like it, I've looked it up.) So, the question is begged again, how accurate must the time of birth be to receive a valuable reading? If they are different by a minute, does that produce significant, different results? 5 minutes? An hour? 6 hours?
More to come based on your response and thanks in advance. I want to reiterate please, that I am asking questions from a laymen’s position. I am not, nor have I had any training in astrology. You seem to know this subject so I am asking. I admit that I have been and probably will be very skeptical of astrology (You can even call me “pseudo-skeptical” if that makes you happy), but I am open to listening and learning.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 04 Sep 2009, 23:00

NinjaPuppy wrote:

By the way, I am signed up on the Arkansas paranormal group, but for some reason I didn't think to ask them. I will though and thanks for the advice!


You never cease to amaze me. May I ask if you have an actual position with this Arkansas paranormal group? What do you think of their protocols and findings?

No position Ninja, I just signed up a while back to see what was around me. A while back I had heard that there was a scary area close to where I live. Come to find out, I've been driving my Hell's Half Acre almost weekly for 2 years now! No sign of horns or fire and brimstone yet, but I'll keep looking. As for my request for a medium through them, nothing so far:

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Mediums in Arkansas
« on: September 02, 2009, 07:36:11 AM »
QuoteModifyRemoveHello all,
Does anyone know of a good medium in the state of Arkansas that could be recommended for me to visit? I'm interested in contacting passed relatives.
Thank you!
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 05 Sep 2009, 03:00

Don wrote:However, you assume, without any proof, that such people don't have similar personality traits. Your evidence for this is? Oh...you don't give any, do you.

You're right Don, I apologize. I was going off the commonly understood "no two people are alike" fallacy. Again, I apologize and I'll try not to let it happen again.
However, speaking of proof, I do have a great reference(s) on academic research into the realm of astrology if you would like me to share with everyone. Just ask!
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 05 Sep 2009, 03:13

Don wrote:Next you bring up a fortuneteller who was wrong. That's totally irrelevant to the discussion. How come so many of the economists were wrong about the world's economy? But you do end with a good question: "how does one know who is truthful and who is not?" When it comes to economists, I don't know. When it comes to astrologers, ask for references. When it comes to politicians, if their lips are moving they are not being truthful (that last one is easy!).

Why is my personal experience with a psychic irrelevant to the discussion? I had a personal experience that I shared. I did not publicly suggest that every psychic/fortune teller was a fraud based on my one meeting. I just shared my personal experience with someone from an area of the country that is known for that sort of thing. The topic is "Why I think astrology is false." Sharing my negative encounter with a psychic/fortune teller most certainly is relevant to this discussion.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby NinjaPuppy » 05 Sep 2009, 03:23

ProfWag - You come over and sit with me on the 'Small Medium at Large' thread under this topic and we can discuss Mediums, Hell's Half-Acre, paranormal groups... you name it.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 06 Sep 2009, 06:32

ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:However, you assume, without any proof, that such people don't have similar personality traits. Your evidence for this is? Oh...you don't give any, do you.

You're right Don, I apologize. I was going off the commonly understood "no two people are alike" fallacy. Again, I apologize and I'll try not to let it happen again.
However, speaking of proof, I do have a great reference(s) on academic research into the realm of astrology if you would like me to share with everyone. Just ask!


Sure! Go ahead.
However, before you do, how much are you willing to bet that their arguments are based on false assumptions about astrology?
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 06 Sep 2009, 06:39

ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:Next you bring up a fortuneteller who was wrong. That's totally irrelevant to the discussion. How come so many of the economists were wrong about the world's economy? But you do end with a good question: "how does one know who is truthful and who is not?" When it comes to economists, I don't know. When it comes to astrologers, ask for references. When it comes to politicians, if their lips are moving they are not being truthful (that last one is easy!).

Why is my personal experience with a psychic irrelevant to the discussion? I had a personal experience that I shared. I did not publicly suggest that every psychic/fortune teller was a fraud based on my one meeting. I just shared my personal experience with someone from an area of the country that is known for that sort of thing. The topic is "Why I think astrology is false." Sharing my negative encounter with a psychic/fortune teller most certainly is relevant to this discussion.


For two reasons.
1) It equates astrology with psychic/fortune tellers. Most (but not all) astrologers--including those certified by the AFA, would deny such a link. Making that association is therefore not only irrelevant to the discussion of astrology, but is clearly meant to disparage astrologers by linking them to a failed fortune teller.

I live in California. Recently, a man here was arrested for kidnapping a young girl, raping her multiple times, and keeping imprisoned for almost two decades. Now, I know you're alive like that man, so therefore I feel it's appropriate to tar you by associating you with him. So are you kidnapping and raping girls, too?

Of course, I don't believe for a moment that you are such a person, but by bringing it up here it influences the entire tenor of the discussion.

2) Apples and oranges. I have a friend who bought a 10-year-old car without a warrantee that fell apart within a year. Should we denounce all manufacturers of cars, including new cars with long warrantees, because an old car failed?
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 06 Sep 2009, 07:43

Don wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:However, you assume, without any proof, that such people don't have similar personality traits. Your evidence for this is? Oh...you don't give any, do you.

You're right Don, I apologize. I was going off the commonly understood "no two people are alike" fallacy. Again, I apologize and I'll try not to let it happen again.
However, speaking of proof, I do have a great reference(s) on academic research into the realm of astrology if you would like me to share with everyone. Just ask!


Sure! Go ahead.
However, before you do, how much are you willing to bet that their arguments are based on false assumptions about astrology?

I would be willing to bet quite a lot...
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 06 Sep 2009, 07:46

Don wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:Next you bring up a fortuneteller who was wrong. That's totally irrelevant to the discussion. How come so many of the economists were wrong about the world's economy? But you do end with a good question: "how does one know who is truthful and who is not?" When it comes to economists, I don't know. When it comes to astrologers, ask for references. When it comes to politicians, if their lips are moving they are not being truthful (that last one is easy!).

Why is my personal experience with a psychic irrelevant to the discussion? I had a personal experience that I shared. I did not publicly suggest that every psychic/fortune teller was a fraud based on my one meeting. I just shared my personal experience with someone from an area of the country that is known for that sort of thing. The topic is "Why I think astrology is false." Sharing my negative encounter with a psychic/fortune teller most certainly is relevant to this discussion.


For two reasons.
1) It equates astrology with psychic/fortune tellers. Most (but not all) astrologers--including those certified by the AFA, would deny such a link. Making that association is therefore not only irrelevant to the discussion of astrology, but is clearly meant to disparage astrologers by linking them to a failed fortune teller.

I live in California. Recently, a man here was arrested for kidnapping a young girl, raping her multiple times, and keeping imprisoned for almost two decades. Now, I know you're alive like that man, so therefore I feel it's appropriate to tar you by associating you with him. So are you kidnapping and raping girls, too?

Of course, I don't believe for a moment that you are such a person, but by bringing it up here it influences the entire tenor of the discussion.

2) Apples and oranges. I have a friend who bought a 10-year-old car without a warrantee that fell apart within a year. Should we denounce all manufacturers of cars, including new cars with long warrantees, because an old car failed?

Fair enough. I'll try not to associate the them. If I may interject here, however, what little information I have on the subject comes from a 1975 book that my wife had in her closet "The Book of Fortune Telling" by Madam Fabia. Thre are chapters in there on not only Fortune Telling , but astrology and psychics as well. Hence, my untrained connection...
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 06 Sep 2009, 07:49

Oh, and Don, if you don't mind, would you answer the questions from my post about how accurate times of birth must be please?
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 06 Sep 2009, 07:53

Don wrote:However, speaking of proof, I do have a great reference(s) on academic research into the realm of astrology if you would like me to share with everyone. Just ask!


Sure! Go ahead.
However, before you do, how much are you willing to bet that their arguments are based on false assumptions about astrology?[/quote]
If you can't trust an astrologer about astrology, who can you trust?
www.scientificexploration.org/journal/j ... mcgrew.pdf
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 08 Sep 2009, 08:39

ProfWag wrote:Oh, and Don, if you don't mind, would you answer the questions from my post about how accurate times of birth must be please?

I apologize. I missed your question of " How accurate for the time of birth do you need to be to produce a valuable reading?"

Respectfully, your question shows your lack of understanding of astrology. You're doing binary thinking as if people are mathematical figures. Either it's accurate or it isn't.

But people aren't that way. Plus, you totally ignore environmental issues.

It's not a question of how accurate does the birth time have to be to produce a "valuable" reading" (whatever "valuable" may mean to you). Rather, it's a situation that the more accurate the birth time is the more valuable (as in more accurately representative) a reading will be. There is an entire technology for finding exact times when they are not known called "rectification." There are many books available on how to do that.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 08 Sep 2009, 08:44

ProfWag wrote: I'll try not to associate the them. If I may interject here, however, what little information I have on the subject comes from a 1975 book that my wife had in her closet "The Book of Fortune Telling" by Madam Fabia. Thre are chapters in there on not only Fortune Telling , but astrology and psychics as well. Hence, my untrained connection...


Wow, you went to a real, well-respected source, huh? LOL. If I used a book on some scientific field written by someone on Hollywood Blvd pushing a grocery cart and wearing a tin-foil hat, you'd be all over my butt telling me that I was stupid for believing it.

Whether your "Prof" is earned or self-applied, don't you think you owe it to others and to your own self-respect to investigate a subject before you denounce it? Sorry, but I don't go to Dr. Phil for psychological advice and I don't go to "Madam Fabia" for accurate information on astrology.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 08 Sep 2009, 09:13




Great. Who are the researchers? Astronomers? No. Astrophysicists? No. They're psychologists! There are a lot of "hard" scientists who feel that psychology is phony. So I question why these people did the research and what their agenda was.

Second their sample was so miniscule as to be irrelevant and meaningless. The author even mentions this problem with other similar studies

Third the information given to the astrologers was created by the test subjects, and test subjects are notorious for lying about themselves for a wide variety of reasons, from Freud's "motivated forgetting" to simple embarrassment.

The authors acknowledge, and I have no reason not to believe, that the design of the test was collaborative. However, just because two children collaborate on building a sand castle does not mean they will be able to finish it or it will last when the first wave hits.

In sum, the design of the test was stupid, the sample too small to be meaningful, the researchers were not in their area of expertise, and there is nothing to show that the subjects who gave information about themselves did not knowingly or unknowingly misrepresent the facts.

Bzzzzzzzzz. Try again?
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 08 Sep 2009, 09:16

ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:However, before you do, how much are you willing to bet that their arguments are based on false assumptions about astrology?

I would be willing to bet quite a lot...


Hmmm. And this from a person who admits his knowledge of astrology comes from "a 1975 book that my wife had in her closet "The Book of Fortune Telling" by Madam Fabia" and not from any study of the works of astrologers tested and certified by a group such as the AFA.

Perhaps there is reason to agree with the statement that "a fool and his money are soon parted." :lol: :lol: :lol:
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