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Why I think astrology is false

Discuss Divination, Fortune Telling - Astrology, Tarot, Runes, I Ching, Tea Leaves, etc. and Predictions.

Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 13 Dec 2009, 06:38

ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:
I have been going to conferences on a variety of topics, some of which have included astrology, for over 20 years. I have easily met hundreds of astrologers. There attitude, as I claimed, is that they would love it if they could have honest and objective research into their practice. Well, that's not completely true. Many have found that their practices have been so successful and that they have helped so many people that such research would be irrelevant. They really don't care.

As I wrote, I don't know if astrology is valid or not.


Just to clarify, you have been going to astrology conferences for over 20 years, but you don't know if it's valid or not? It's definitely true that you don't KNOW if it's valid, but it certainly sounds like you BELIEVE it is.
Personally, if I didn't like Star Trek, I wouldn't go to Star Trek conventions or if I didn't believe in UFOs, I wouldn't go to very many UFO conventions. But again, that's just me.


I never cease to be amazed at how people who claim to be intelligent have such horrible difficulties with the English language.
Somehow, you have managed to quote, "I have been going to conferences on a variety of topics, some of which have included astrology, for over 20 years," and yet in your incredible world of fantasy that becomes, the false claim that I "have been going to astrology conferences for over 20 years."

Do you understand why an increasing number of people realize that self-professed skeptics are, at best, pseudo-skeptics, are more likely simply debunkers, and are the best example of pseudo-science around? So you understand how your outright misrepresentation of the facts shows your attitude? Do you see why people will put you on the level of those who stole emails from real scientist and misrepresent them to claim that climate change is a fraud? Do you understand how you, personally, are helping to drive real science back into the age of religious dogma?

In point of fact I've been to exactly ONE astrological convention in the past 20 years. In point of fact I've been to many others on a variety of topics, some of which have included astrology.

I would also point out to every reading this that what you're doing is typical of debunkers and pseudo-scentists. You're attempting to change the subject. The subject was what astrologers think about having their practices objectively tested. But, like debunkers everywhere, you'd rather avoid the subject and just lie and misrepresent what was stated.

That's why most people who are interested in science aren't interested in dealing with debunkers and pseudo-scientists like you.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Dec 2009, 06:53

Don wrote:Except that you've admitted that you know almost nothing about astrology. Critical thinking can occur without accurate data. The result is that although the logic may be reasonable the result is false. Until you learn astrology, your critical thinking on the subject is about as valid as that of a flat earther who refuses to study astronomy or astrophysics.

Very well put Don.

I tried to find a fitting 'argument' from SCEPCOP's Treatise page that applied to this. However for this topic, just about all of them from 'Section 1' have been applied by our skeptics. It's their lot in life to go through life pointing out that unless something has been proven, tested, retested and peer reviewed, it ain't worth nuthin'. It ain't even worth looking at what is already available on almost all things deemed paranormal since their 'waste of time theory' has been proven, tested, retested and peer reviewed by skeptics.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 13 Dec 2009, 07:19

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Nostradamus wrote:For all of your snide comments about my post it seems that writing English is not your forte.

Oh please, don't go there! Just don't go there... This is one of the worst arguments on the Internet.


And you've read the entire internet to know this? Amazing.
Perhaps you should look here:
http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 13 Dec 2009, 07:21

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:I re-thought that after I posted, but I'm going to stick with my statement. I can certainly see going a time or two for interest sake, but not for 20 years.

I must appologize to Don for taking up the cause here. Only he knows his reasons for enjoying something.

Sorry Don if I've over stepped any boundaries.


Not at all.
The problem is that "ProfWag" misrepresented what I wrote--he lied about my statement--and you're basing what you wrote on "ProfWag's" lie.
You have no reason to apologize to me, but ProfWag should apologize to me, you, and everyone else for misrepresenting what I wrote.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 13 Dec 2009, 07:24

ProfWag wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:I'd prefer that someone's belief not be crucified when they state that they have no direct evidence to supply. But it looks like I'm not going to get that either. :lol:

Ninja, have you looked at the URL for this website lately? This ENTIRE site is about how bad and wrong we skeptics are. I would say that's the ultimate crucifixation and I'm simply defending my stance.



Amazing. I would seem that all you can do, "ProfWag," is lie and misrepresent things.
This site is NOT about how bad and wrong skeptics are.
It IS about how wrong pseudo-skeptics who present their personal religion as a defense of so-called science (as if real science needed defending) when they're really about defending their religion.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 13 Dec 2009, 07:28

As I aluded to earlier, until one is ready to present evidence in a mature manner, I will not participate in this discussion that is obviously going nowhere.
I have been called a liar. Perhaps I have misunderstood a comment for which I'll apologize, but being called a liar is rather incorrect. I believe I might even need an apology. Oh, and a hug.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Dec 2009, 07:39

Don wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:
Nostradamus wrote:For all of your snide comments about my post it seems that writing English is not your forte.

Oh please, don't go there! Just don't go there... This is one of the worst arguments on the Internet.


And you've read the entire internet to know this? Amazing.
Perhaps you should look here:
http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm


Don - My comment was to ND about his comment 'English is not your forte'.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 13 Dec 2009, 08:03

Nostradamus wrote:
I raise this issue of cucumbers because I think it might be a means of finding out what people think about astrology.

Should cucumberism be considered a legitimate form of study?


Why do you care what others think about astrology?
Why is this important to you?
How is this different from wondering if people have been "saved?"
How is this different from asking, "Have you found Jesus?"
Where are the thousands of years of evidence for cucumberism?
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 13 Dec 2009, 20:49

Don wrote:What part of English are you having trouble reading? I have consistently said that I don't know if astrology is valid. What are you asking me to prove something that I don't care about?

I've been doing a lot of thinking since I read all this last night, and I feel that although I'm not keen on continuing this discussion unless it's concerned with the topic and presented maturely, I have to point a couple things out and then ask a question. First, you have made assumptions about me that are simply not true. I've never said I'm a scientist, I've never claimed to be intelligent, and you've called me a liar. All three of those are false. Especially, calling me a liar is an insult beyond apologies. Tell me where I have lied and I will apologize profusely, otherwise, I request that you discontinue your insults.
Now, to my question that I just have to ask this one last time. I know, Don, that you have stated all along that you are not sure if astrology is valid. Although your statements and arguments hint to something different, I'll go along with that. If one has studied a subject as much as you say you have and have talked to "hundreds of astrologers," then you should have in-depth knowledge on something I may not know. If, through all of your studies on the subject, you don't know if astrology is valid, then that means there is something about it that you feel MAY be valid. So, I'll ask again (which is no different than I asked earlier), what points about astrology has led you to believe that astrology MAY have validity? 15 pages of ramblings and this simply question is all I've wanted answered. The subject of the thread is "Why I think astrology is false." I have presented reasons why I think it's false. If you feel that there MAY be something to astrolgoy that is true, what is it? Could you please, please, please just answer the question? Thanks.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 17 Dec 2009, 05:29

ProfWag wrote:As I aluded to earlier, until one is ready to present evidence in a mature manner, I will not participate in this discussion that is obviously going nowhere.
I have been called a liar. Perhaps I have misunderstood a comment for which I'll apologize, but being called a liar is rather incorrect. I believe I might even need an apology. Oh, and a hug.



So like the little baby you are you'll just take your ball and go home.
This is the final typical phase of the activities of debunkers.
When people don't bow to their bullying, they just say they won't play.
If you didn't understand what I clearly wrote you are either a liar or a moron.
I took the high road and assumed you were not a moron.
However, you can take your ball and go now.
It's okay.
There. There.
Maybe if you're lucky, mommy will give you cookies and milk.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 17 Dec 2009, 05:31

NinjaPuppy wrote:Don - My comment was to ND about his comment 'English is not your forte'.


My mistake.
I apologize for "speaking" out of turn.
Still, you might enjoy the URL :mrgreen:
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 17 Dec 2009, 06:06

Don wrote:
ProfWag wrote:As I aluded to earlier, until one is ready to present evidence in a mature manner, I will not participate in this discussion that is obviously going nowhere.
I have been called a liar. Perhaps I have misunderstood a comment for which I'll apologize, but being called a liar is rather incorrect. I believe I might even need an apology. Oh, and a hug.



So like the little baby you are you'll just take your ball and go home.
This is the final typical phase of the activities of debunkers.
When people don't bow to their bullying, they just say they won't play.
If you didn't understand what I clearly wrote you are either a liar or a moron.
I took the high road and assumed you were not a moron.
However, you can take your ball and go now.
It's okay.
There. There.
Maybe if you're lucky, mommy will give you cookies and milk.

Thanks Don. My Mom died a couple months ago so I really appreciate milk and cookies comment. I tried to get this thread back on track through my last post, but unfortunately, I see you'd rather throw insults than discuss my questions.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby NinjaPuppy » 17 Dec 2009, 06:14

Don wrote:
NinjaPuppy wrote:Don - My comment was to ND about his comment 'English is not your forte'.


My mistake.
I apologize for "speaking" out of turn.
Still, you might enjoy the URL :mrgreen:

For the record there Mr. Smartypants... I have read the entire Internet. :lol:
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby Don » 17 Dec 2009, 06:18

ProfWag wrote:
Don wrote:What part of English are you having trouble reading? I have consistently said that I don't know if astrology is valid. What are you asking me to prove something that I don't care about?

I've been doing a lot of thinking since I read all this last night, and I feel that although I'm not keen on continuing this discussion unless it's concerned with the topic and presented maturely, I have to point a couple things out and then ask a question. First, you have made assumptions about me that are simply not true. I've never said I'm a scientist,


I don't believe I said you, specifically, were. If I did, I stand corrected and apologize for misrepresenting you.

I've never claimed to be intelligent,


On the contrary. You call yourself "ProfWag." Are you saying that "Prof" doesn't stand for "professor?" Or are you saying that professors are not intelligent?

and you've called me a liar.


As I wrote, you're either a liar or a moron, and I don't think you're the latter. How could you quote me and then totally misrepresent what you quoted? That would be like quoting someone saying "The banana is yellow" and telling everyone he said the banana is blue.

All three of those are false.

I'm sure you think that's true. I have no doubt that you believe it. But that doesn't negate the damage you, and people like you, do to honest debate and inquiry.


Especially, calling me a liar is an insult beyond apologies. Tell me where I have lied and I will apologize profusely, otherwise, I request that you discontinue your insults.


This is ASTOUNDING! You quote me, totally misrepresent the quote (if you're not intelligent as you say, that's called "lying") and now you ask me to tell you where you lied!
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol:

Now, to my question that I just have to ask this one last time. I know, Don, that you have stated all along that you are not sure if astrology is valid. Although your statements and arguments hint to something different, I'll go along with that.


I would disagree with your claim. I really don't know if astrology is valid. It seems, that in some places, some aspects of astrology have validity. There are lots of "weasel words" there. I admit it. I used them on purpose.

The point that you don't seem to be getting here is that we are playing 2 different games: you're playing disprove astrology. I would like to see some great proofs or disproofs of astrology. Your disproofs are so filled with rank errors that it's an embarrassment. My responses are not about proving or disproving astrology, but about proving or disproving your arguments. Do you see the difference?

You, and other debunkers have an idee fixe. You've made up your mind that astrology is fake. Therefore, rather than look at the evidence objectively, you begin with the agenda that astrology is false. Because you're not objective, the arguments are not objective. It's like a person who looks at geology and archeology and proves that the world was created 6,000 years ago because that's what the person believes is indicated by the Bible. Because of the idee fixe, even though you and other debunkers think you are being objective, you are not. That makes the arguments you and others have presented so easy to demolish.

The problem with this, and with the fixation, is that even though what I'm doing is attacking the argument, you see it as a defense of astrology. It is not. It is a defense of logic, reason, and the scientific method that abjures such preconceived notions.

If one has studied a subject as much as you say you have and have talked to "hundreds of astrologers," then you should have in-depth knowledge on something I may not know. If, through all of your studies on the subject, you don't know if astrology is valid, then that means there is something about it that you feel MAY be valid.


That is true, and I have stated so.


So, I'll ask again (which is no different than I asked earlier), what points about astrology has led you to believe that astrology MAY have validity?


And I repeat, thousands of years of success show that it seems to work. Here. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1dIUTbZTo

15 pages of ramblings and this simply question is all I've wanted answered. The subject of the thread is "Why I think astrology is false." I have presented reasons why I think it's false. If you feel that there MAY be something to astrolgoy that is true, what is it? Could you please, please, please just answer the question? Thanks.


Don't you get it? You've stated why you think astrology is false. You've shown that all of your understanding of astrology is based on a refusal to study anything about astrology. That's like deciding the Earth is flat based on nothing.

If somebody came to you and said the Earth is flat, you might say, "Go out and look at the Moon and the planets. Go out to a place where you can get a wide view of the horizon and you can see the curvature of the Earth. Look at a lunar eclipse and see the circular shadow of the Earth. Study astronomy. Study geology." There are a lot of things you might tell such a person.

And what would you do if that person said, "No. I won't." You say the Earth is round, prove it right here."

What would you say to such a person who refuses to do any investigation and demands you prove something to him?

That's what you're doing. That's what debunkers do. It's a fun game as long as you're in control, but when someone stands up to you and sees through what you're doing it's all backtracking and apology.

I've told you books to look at. I've put up a long list of them. Study it. Try it out. You can prove or disprove it for yourself instead of depending upon $1 booklets from the newsstand.

And now, after 15 pages of you and others making absurd arguments and false assumptions, you've changed from "Why I think astrology is false" to "somebody please prove to me that astrology is valid."

To which I respond simply, and frustratedly, "Who the hell are you?" You've come out and made false and defamatory attacks on something you don't even know the basics about, you've misrepresented things I've said, and now you're begging for an education. It's offered, but you refuse to take it. Instead you ask for a simplistic answer that you don't have to work for.

But I know that game. And I don't play it. I could offer you proof and you'd simply deny it. That's what debunkers do.

So why should I bother trying to prove astrology works to you? How will that benefit me? How will that benefit you? How will that benefit others? How ill that make the world a better place? Who are you?

If this thread had been started with the name, "prove that astrology is valid" I would have ignored it. I wouldn't have made any posts. You've already made up your mind. No proofs will change it.

It's possible that if you do the work to study the subject and understand real astrology from its core, when you see whether it works for you, you'll be able to honestly say "I studied astrology, I tested it on myself and others, and I came to the objective conclusion that it is or is not valid."

For people who begin by believing in astrology, no proof is necessary. For people such as yourself who begin by not believing in astrology, no proof is enough.
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Re: Why I think astrology is false

Postby ProfWag » 17 Dec 2009, 06:37

Don wrote:[
I don't believe I said you, specifically, were. If I did, I stand corrected and apologize for misrepresenting you.

I've never claimed to be intelligent,


On the contrary. You call yourself "ProfWag." Are you saying that "Prof" doesn't stand for "professor?" Or are you saying that professors are not intelligent?

and you've called me a liar.


As I wrote, you're either a liar or a moron, and I don't think you're the latter. How could you quote me and then totally misrepresent what you quoted? That would be like quoting someone saying "The banana is yellow" and telling everyone he said the banana is blue.

All three of those are false.

I'm sure you think that's true. I have no doubt that you believe it. But that doesn't negate the damage you, and people like you, do to honest debate and inquiry.



First, apology accepted on the science thing. Second, I am an Adjunct Professor of Management. Doesn't make me any more intelligent than you or anyone else. I don't think I pretent to be. Third, I don't even remember any more what it was you're saying I misrepresented you about. Was it that I interpreted you going to conferences for 20 years as going to astrology conferences for 20 years? If so, that's not a lie, that's a simple misunderstanding. I pride myself in not being a liar or a moron. Hence, why I'm getting defensive, but you know that.
Thanks for the rest of the information as it was actually worth a read. I'm going to read it again later and let it soak in. Also, have you noticed I've started a couple other threads in the Astrology forum? I was hoping you'd comment on my "What is astrology and How does it Work? I'd like to see where I'm going wrong.
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