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Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby brett » 25 Aug 2009, 00:24

thank you prof - i will look further into what you have presented :D

what i will ask you being a military man is this - ever heard of the term " fog of war ??" - surly with your military experience you have been in confusing and noisy situations where you could not be 100% sure of what you witnessed ?? - and only reflection afterwards sorts it out ?? - and is it any wonder accounts get confused some times ?? - frankly no - but the whole point of this exercise is TO sort out what really happened - as i have said ,i am looking and forming an OPINION - that's all - and given this new presentation of the evidence - i am leaning towards the OPINION that not all is or may be as presented at the time

nothing more ;)
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby Nostradamus » 25 Aug 2009, 00:35

Thanks Prof for the list of deceptive quotations you listed. Here is my favorite:

"From my close-up inspection, there is no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon"


Let's get the rest of the story

WOODRUFF: Jamie, Aaron was talking earlier -- or one of our correspondence was talking earlier -- I think -- actually, it was Bob Franken -- with an eyewitness who said it appeared that that Boeing 757, the American jet, American Airline jet, landed short of the Pentagon.

Can you give us any better idea of how much of the plane actually impacted the building?

MCINTYRE: You know, it might have appeared that way, but from my close-up inspection, there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon. The only site is the actual site of the building that's crashed in, and as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you can pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around, which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon and then caused the side to collapse.


So here is the quote in context. Someone thinks that the plane hit short of the Pentagon and the reporter says no it hit the Pentagon.
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby brett » 25 Aug 2009, 00:37

ProfWag wrote:
brett wrote: - and if you watch the videos carefully they are not denying that some sort of plane hit the pentagon - just questioning if it was an airliner as per the official story

So you support the people who question whether it was commercial aircraft that flew into the buildings? What about those people that were on the planes, do they and their families that were left behind deserve that? That's real classy.


read what i said prof - i am NOT belittling the loss of the people involved in all this - do you think i am that much of a bastard ?? well do you ?? - i mean NO disrespect to the relatives - do you not think many of them may not be asking questions too ??

all i am confused about is how do you get a plane the size of the one that is supposed to have hit the pentagon through a 5 meter hole - and considering the size and weight of the components of that plane - why does the damage not look more like the damage to the WTC where the outline of the plane was clearly visible ?? - its just that i would have expected MORE physical damage than there was if an airliner had been the cause
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 25 Aug 2009, 01:44

brett wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
brett wrote: - and if you watch the videos carefully they are not denying that some sort of plane hit the pentagon - just questioning if it was an airliner as per the official story

So you support the people who question whether it was commercial aircraft that flew into the buildings? What about those people that were on the planes, do they and their families that were left behind deserve that? That's real classy.


read what i said prof - i am NOT belittling the loss of the people involved in all this - do you think i am that much of a bastard ?? well do you ?? - i mean NO disrespect to the relatives - do you not think many of them may not be asking questions too ??

all i am confused about is how do you get a plane the size of the one that is supposed to have hit the pentagon through a 5 meter hole - and considering the size and weight of the components of that plane - why does the damage not look more like the damage to the WTC where the outline of the plane was clearly visible ?? - its just that i would have expected MORE physical damage than there was if an airliner had been the cause

Brett, you said you were "just questioning if it was an airliner as per the official story." If you are questioning that it was an airliner, then that means you have doubts about it, thus leading me to my conclusion that you think it could be something other than a commercial airliner. And, if you think it was something other than a commercial airliner, then that means that 64 people did not lose their lives at the Pentagon that day. And if they didn't lose their lives at the Pentagon, where are they? Apologize if I came across that I think you are a bastard, but I can only read what you write. Is there another way for me to have read what you wrote?
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby brett » 25 Aug 2009, 02:25

OK fair dos as always - right to answer that - I do have a scenario that could remotely , possibly explain it - but out of respect to the relatives i am not going to espouse it here

probably best left alone - as is possibly this whole subject ?? - i am beginning to wonder if we ALL should now drop this one - we have discussed it and may be enough is enough - each can follow any further research as they see fit

as something just hit me looking at other stuff on the site , i am beginning to notice a pattern of gun loading - leaving others to pull the trigger about several threads recently ( go figure ) :x
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 25 Aug 2009, 02:31

brett wrote:OK fair dos as always - right to answer that - I do have a scenario that could remotely , possibly explain it - but out of respect to the relatives i am not going to espouse it here

probably best left alone - as is possibly this whole subject ?? - i am beginning to wonder if we ALL should now drop this one - we have discussed it and may be enough is enough - each can follow any further research as they see fit

as something just hit me looking at other stuff on the site , i am beginning to notice a pattern of gun loading - leaving others to pull the trigger about several threads recently ( go figure ) :x

Agreed. Now, WHERE IS JIMMY HOFFA?!
See you over at the psychic threads... ;-)
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Re: Zero - A New Italian film debunking 9/11 (Artful, MUST SEE!)

Postby Nostradamus » 25 Aug 2009, 03:15

all i am confused about is how do you get a plane the size of the one that is supposed to have hit the pentagon through a 5 meter hole - and considering the size and weight of the components of that plane - why does the damage not look more like the damage to the WTC where the outline of the plane was clearly visible ?? - its just that i would have expected MORE physical damage than there was if an airliner had been the cause


That's a very good point and it follows from the differences in the constructions. The WTCs are basic air. The steel skeleton was not surrounded by concrete. The Pentagon was a reinforced building.

The Pentagon is built as a set of concentric pentagons. The outer ring had a hole 75 feet across in it. The next ring had a 16 feet across hole in the middle ring. So make sure you know that the 5m hole is well inside the building. Well ... sort of. The ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers) report clams that inner hole was only 4m across, not 5.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."


This quote is from an article published in Popular Mechanics.

And another photo of debris from the plane:
Image

Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"


This quote is from a part of the Popular Mechanics article in which an engineer makes it fairly clear that a plane hit and the crew was still on board the plane when it hit the Pentagon.

If you want to read the entire article you can view it here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby Scepcop » 28 Oct 2009, 03:05

Hi all,
I just saw "Zero - An Investigation into 9/11" again and I was blown away. There are so many irrefutable arguments and logical points in it that anyone with an open mind who watches it MUST conclude that the official story of 9/11 cannot be true or that we were not told the whole truth. And the arguments, analyses and questions came from experts in military and aviation too.

It's one of those films that you have to watch a few times, not just once, cause there are so many details to consider that you can't remember them all in just one sitting. It takes multiple viewings.

Ninjapuppy, when you have time, I urge you to watch this one next ok, and then leave your review about it. Brett saw it too, and he was blown away by it, if you remember.

Here is the link to it on Google Video, in its entirety.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 603788739#

I dare the skeptics here to refute its many solid points. They cannot logically do so without straight up emotional denial. But even so, I invite them to watch it anyway, even though they will never change their beliefs.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby Scepcop » 28 Oct 2009, 03:15

Skeptics, a quick question for you.

Experts say that the top pilots only have a 1 in 20 chance of pulling off the maneuver that the hijackers did with AA77. Now given that, what are the odds that you would calculate that a pilot who could not fly at all, not even a small plane, could succeed in a maneuver where a highly skilled pilot only has a 1 in 20 chance of making?

Also, can you find a pilot or credible unbiased source in aviation that says that a 757 can do 400 to 500mph six feet above the ground, which experts say is aerodynamically impossible? If you disagree, then can you find a pilot who claims he can go that fast that close to the ground?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 28 Oct 2009, 04:02

Scepcop wrote:Skeptics, a quick question for you.

Experts say that the top pilots only have a 1 in 20 chance of pulling off the maneuver that the hijackers did with AA77.

What "experts" are you referring to please.
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 28 Oct 2009, 04:27

Scepcop wrote: If you disagree, then can you find a pilot who claims he can go that fast that close to the ground?

Although I am leary about posting this since you won't answer my questions (please Scepcop, how 'bout just one?), but to show that I am making an honest attempt at finding the truth, I will answer your question. Jim Ritter is one. Giulio Bernacchia is another. Here is his e-mail address. giulioberna@tin.it Perhaps you should write him. Here's a little exerpt of what he has stated:
"I can testify that it is absolutely possible to fly for miles on end at 50 feet at
250 KTS (287 MPH) with a low-wing-loading large plane , but I admit it, I
never tried at 400 plus MPH." (Scepcop, do you know any who HAVE?)
He continues:
"In my opinion the official version of the fact is absolutely plausible, does not
require exceptional circumstances, bending of any law of physics or
superhuman capabilities. Like other (real pilots) have said, the manoeuvres
required of the hijackers were within their (very limited) capabilities, they
were performed without any degree of finesse and resulted in damage to the
targets only after desperate overmanoeuvring of the planes. The hijackers
took advantage of anything that might make their job easier, and decided not
to rely on their low piloting skills. It is misleading to make people believe
that the hijackers HAD to possess superior pilot skills to do what they did."
I am now starting another thread. Scepcop, I answered you question again, now PLEASE answer mine!
Last edited by ProfWag on 28 Oct 2009, 04:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby ciscop » 28 Oct 2009, 04:34

Scepcop wrote:Hi all,
I just saw "Zero - An Investigation into 9/11" again and I was blown away. There are so many irrefutable arguments and logical points in it that anyone with an open mind who watches it MUST conclude that the official story of 9/11 cannot be true or that we were not told the whole truth. And the arguments, analyses and questions came from experts in military and aviation too.

It's one of those films that you have to watch a few times, not just once, cause there are so many details to consider that you can't remember them all in just one sitting. It takes multiple viewings.

Ninjapuppy, when you have time, I urge you to watch this one next ok, and then leave your review about it. Brett saw it too, and he was blown away by it, if you remember.

Here is the link to it on Google Video, in its entirety.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 603788739#

I dare the skeptics here to refute its many solid points. They cannot logically do so without straight up emotional denial. But even so, I invite them to watch it anyway, even though they will never change their beliefs.


one of this days
im pretty sure you will start changing irrefutable for dogmatic
none of your arguments so far has been irrefutable, it is just irrefutable to you because you want to believe in that
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 28 Oct 2009, 20:50

So yesterday afternoon, I decided to watch this video. So, I poured myself a glass of 18-year, single-malt highland and sat down to watch. I got through the first video and took some notes. I started watching the second video and the light bulb came on! I said to myself, "self, I need a colon cleansing!" So it was either watch more of this "irrefutable, must see" video or go get my colon cleansed. Guess which one I picked? You got it, I'm feel very refreshed this morning...
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby NinjaPuppy » 28 Oct 2009, 21:16

I guess I know what I will be doing today. I've been waiting for some free time to give this one a watch.
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Re: Zero - An Investigation into 9/11 (Irrefutable, MUST SEE!)

Postby ProfWag » 28 Oct 2009, 21:30

NinjaPuppy wrote:I guess I know what I will be doing today. I've been waiting for some free time to give this one a watch.

I can't say I encourage you to do so, but hey, it's a free country. I'll watch more when I get a chance, but from what I've seen so far, it's just more of the same ol' stuff being re-hashed.
It is well made though, but then again, so was JFK.
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