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Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are real

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Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are real

Postby leo100 » 05 Jul 2010, 08:05

He admits that their is evidence that near death experiences most likely points towards evidence for an aftelife the same as the reincarnation evidence. Wish their were more atheists like him.

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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby ProfWag » 05 Jul 2010, 18:41

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone thinks there's a good chance of an afterlife, wouldn't that make him/her an agnostic at best?
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby really? » 05 Jul 2010, 20:45

He admits that their is evidence that near death experiences...

A bit of comfirmation bias, so what. Where is the empirical evidence ?
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Indigo Child » 06 Jul 2010, 05:41

That was a very honest video essay. This is how people should be, open to new
information and constantly revising their worldview based on the examination of
evidence. Kudos to this atheist.

I can see what the main epistemological criteria of this man is: Empiricism. He
accepts only that has empiricial evidence. Now, obviouosly beyond the supersensory
experiences of those who have experienced god, there is no empirical evidence for god.
However, the problem with accepting this as your only criteria for knowledge is, your
knowledge will always be limited to the limited data you have. It is a very slow process
of knowing things. If you accept rationalism as your criteria, you can know a lot more in
advance of empirical data. Such as god's existence.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 06 Jul 2011, 05:44

He only accepts the fact that they happen tbh and has a theoritical conclusion of them.
Totaly meaningless material. Modern philosophy is religion free yet has totaly same values and it is based on beliving hundred per cent unconditionaly.
Only because one says that it is a proof it doesn't make it proof.

Bible says Jesus resurected people - same gospel.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Craig Browning » 07 Jul 2011, 00:41

Oi Vey!

Cynics don't/won't believe in NDE's or an after-life, etc. because there is no way to prove one way or the other; there is a small pile of somewhat debated data that suggests that NDE's and other such phenomena are a bio-chemical or bio-electrical or even bio-magnetic influence on certain regions of the brain but they don't seem to consider that such encounters merely stimulate those centers rather than stemming from them. Sight, Sound, Taste, Touch, etc. manifests in the brain in specific areas of the brain as the result of an outside stimulus or data in-put NOT because the brain tells us to see this, taste that, etc. This is one reason why all the clinical testing can't be honestly viewed as "empirical" proof.

HOWEVER, there is a reason why nearly every shamanic ritual or the now religious ceremonies that evolved form such, involve the idea of death and going outside the body. There is similarly a reason why, even when not used in the guise of religious ceremony, hallucinogenic exposure does result in the individual literally "seeing" life and reality in a different way; a manner that is oft times more productive/creative and even "ingenious" . . . literally, a "Mind Expanded" end result. Clinically certain explanations exist when it comes to what happens to the brain during hallucination, etc. BUT hard science cannot explain why there seems to be a very potent "spiritual" (consciousness-based) sense of awakening in people following such encounters for years after the fact. It can't explain it because there is no current means by which to judge such phenomena; to track it comparatively against a like thing that did not undergo said exposure but knows all other life encounters. No, the only thing that we KNOW is that people who have had any form of intense hallucinatory experience (including NDE or Astral Projection) come to know a pronounced, long-term psychological transformation. While it is rarely noticeable in the immediate future (from the event encounter) it ALWAYS becomes an influence in an individual's life in the long run, though in a more general way vs. any kind of "pin-point" descriptive (at least to my mind that seems the case).

Is There Life After Death?

If everything is made up of molecules and elements -- if it's all "energy" -- it must continue. So yes, there is a state of "existence" after mortal death. Whether or not there is a continuation of the consciousness however, this is more the specific detail of the issue that we do not yet have the means by which to prove one way or the other. . . that is, if we are to discount ghosties and their interactive cohorts (vs. "Paranormal Recordings" in time & place, which is what most "haunting" is). If such phenomena is in fact "real" and people really do have visitations with mum & dad after their passing. . . well I'd have to say that such is far stronger proof to the case than any of the other mumbo-jumbo spoken of in this and that "sacred" composition. . .

. . . c'mon, 72 virgins?

That sounds more like hell than heaven; having to convince them over and over again that it's ok to put out and endure the trauma of lost virginity over and over again for eternity. . . I don't know who I feel more sorry for, the arrogant jerk that is "gifted" the virgins or the poor virgins that must endure said lot in "life" :shock:
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 07 Jul 2011, 01:17

Hi
I am not sceptic but I am also not corrupted by any philosopy and very media selective. I don't consider myself being under cultural/religious or historical influence.
I did describe my own perception on OBE, NDE and other para experiences based on my sleeping dissorder. It just happened so many times that I managed to analyze it better.

OBE and NDE vary depending on Religion or Continent.
There is also no patern in those. If someone claims that there is a tunnel and a light - that is only based on western NDEs.

I am also highly against creating theory to match with a possible outcome which every single of those people did. It is pretty conclusive that OBE and NDE doesn't exist outside of the body and everyone saying against it uses rules of self made philosophy. Paradox and nonsense. There is yet to be a conclusive work or thesis proving me wrong.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Craig Browning » 07 Jul 2011, 19:38

I am also highly against creating theory to match with a possible outcome which every single of those people did. It is pretty conclusive that OBE and NDE doesn't exist outside of the body and everyone saying against it uses rules of self made philosophy. Paradox and nonsense. There is yet to be a conclusive work or thesis proving me wrong.

Js1981


The first part of your replay suggests that you're more "open-minded" on things and then you close with a "definite" -- your views are cold hard fact and nothing can challenge them. . . sounds as if you've been around too many Baptists.

The "tunnel" or "abyss" aspects of such experience IS quite Universal in that it is and has been described the world over for thousands of years. The appearance of either Ancestors or a Divine Being is likewise a constant that antiquity supports though it is often "personalized" based on cultural and religious influences as well as guilt; Saul of Tarsus as an example, believed he met Jesus during his traumatic incident on that fate-filled road to Damascus, primarily due to the fact that he was carrying around a sense of guilt over his acts of persecution and even prosecution of Jesus followers. Yet, there are those "prophets" that beheld Krishna or Lord Buddha (who isn't seen as a "god" but rather, enlightened and elevated human being, a major misconception by most) Too, you will have those confirmed dyed-in-the-wool atheists that have NDE experiences in which their psyche takes them to Hell; again, we are looking at a guilt catalyst but likewise Osmosis -- a cultural-religious perspective based on what the environment feeds us on a daily basis (or so goes the theory), the result is typically fast-paced detraction of previous thoughts and preaching followed by conversion to the very "faith" once denounced and preyed upon. . . probably why there are no atheists in fox-holes. . .

The whole idea of DEATH-BURIAL & REBIRTH is a constant in the history of humanity around which numerous rituals and theologies have been built, which in turn create a social-political sense of "echo" -- even those that do not observe or profess a given dogma will be indirectly affected, even if it's just cursory familiarity with the traditions folklore, myths and wisdom parables (most of which are the same world wide, with the names and things changed to fit a given group; something Christians refuse to acknowledge though they've "borrowed" 99% of everything they claim to be exclusive to their cult's dogma). One of the other similarities found in these rituals is the passing through a narrow corridor and finding "light" at the end of the proverbial tunnel. What most non-ritualistic NDEs don't include however, is the fact that a choice is found at the end of this tunnel - move one direction and you do find "paradise" and a connection to the Higher Self (Divine) but those who are not yet ready for this type of encounter will be compelled to take the alternative path, which can result in a kind of Nothingness or a more literal interpretation of Hell.

Yes, it all comes by way of the mind/soul-seat of the individual but there is an intuitive aspect to it as well, which is how the neophyte was "guided" down the proper corridors of the tunnel, even when they are ignorant of this more remote side of the journey tradition.

The other thing skeptical minds rarely take into consideration when it comes to this kind of thing is the fact that most initiates knew, going into the most intense forms of these rituals, that they were being observed and kept "safe". They knew that most of what they would face was metaphor or what we'd call "Psychological" these days. In other words, there really isn't a claim of mysticism but rather, the allusion thereof (and yes, that is the proper term, though "Illusion" would serve as part of their experience). Similarly, the idea of an after-life is only implied based on the cycles of nature; how the seasons shift, bringing "death" and darkness for a season followed by rebirth, bounty, harvest and death (metamorphosis) again. The ancient belief is that "man" moves through this same cycle (as does all matter/energy in the Universe). The primary assumption is that our essence returns to new life be it some kind of heavenly (or hellish) eternity, which is a relatively new idea when it comes to general world philosophy where some form of reincarnation/resurrection is the norm.

To "Prove" one way or the other, is (at the present) impossible to do even though there have been many noted individuals in our world that could give amazingly accurate details about their past lives; describing events, locations, etc. about things from hundreds if not thousands of mile from where they live in the present, that happened several generations prior to their birth (bear in mind, access to any related histories in the course of most human history, was not exactly forth-coming; especially when you have a four/five year old child feeding such details). In other words, there is data that lends significant support to reincarnation but not the more fantastic dream-worlds of Heaven/Nirvana or whatever you wish to call it. Too, question still exists when it comes to the whole "earth bound spirit" issue (Ghosts & Poltergeists), which likewise sustain the likelihood that some form of post carnal existence happens with some aspect of our consciousness following death. These are things argued and studied for well mover 5,000 years and I have the strong suspicion that it could be another millennium or two before we have the technological know-how to verify, beyond the shadow of doubt, that something more is real and can be tracked. . . then again, I think "science" will eventually validate most of what we and our ancestors have believed or held on to, when it comes to the spiritual and metaphysical.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 07 Jul 2011, 22:33

Hi
Thank you for your response.
I know that I don't know and therefore I am absolutely opened.
No, I don't belong to any religious cult.

You are wrong tho.
Comparing Western, Eastern, Northern and Southern NDE' the whole data has 0 pattern. Only one pattern comes in Western and Eastern NDE' if you conclude that 'Tunnel' and 'Dark Space' and ' nothingness' has similar meaning and that still is beinh shared by less than 10 per cent.
Seeing dead realtives and friends also isn't a pattern.
The pattern is that they saw people, all kinds and not major NDE' anyway, they were dead, live, strangers etc.

That what I meant by closing and judging that atheist.
He created a comfortable, personal thesis based on ignoring majority of data.
The data is of course not sufficient for he final verdict but sufficient enough to contradict what he said. I am not judging and denying in general, just that single person.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 07 Jul 2011, 22:40

Also on reincarnation.
Most data when analysed proves hypothetical at best.
To conclude that the data is sufficient you also need to be very selective to make such claim. Most of examples were not detailed and mostly wrong anyway just like NDE they were corrupted by religion and culture.

I am very open minded, belive it or not.
If I collect data and 90 cent of it is negatavie while involving same experiment the answer isn't 'maybe', the answer is 'no'.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Craig Browning » 08 Jul 2011, 23:53

:lol: I don't think you're as open minded as you want to believe you are. . . few of us are and the older we get the more we become rigid in our perspectives EXCEPT for those lucky enough to have a strong, even traumatic experience that allows them to reevaluate things.

I haven't a clue where you're getting your data but when it comes to Reincarnation my input stems from several major studies in the U.S. as well as French & German Universities. Like NDE scenarios or the simple question around Life After Death, there is no way to tangibly "prove" or "disprove" any of it, only theory and what some might call anecdotal perspectives.

The NDE/OBE (Astral Travel) thing is an area where I have some serious training & background in, I've been teaching this sort of thing for over 20 years now and I clarify to the students one key fact; when they first start out learning to project themselves outward from the physical body, it's all Mental Projection and not true Astral let alone the more advanced (and rare) modes of Bi-Location. Mental Projection comes through a melding of the subconscious mind's observations and ability to fill in voids that are then merged into a more "conscious" or "logic-based" orientation. The problems with MP is that most novices are solely in love with the fantasy of being able to project themselves outwardly and thus, they ignore the fact that they ARE NOT outside their bodies in the more literal mode of such things. This is actually a problem with 98% of all "Psychic" training; the fact that most simply want to prove to themselves certain things or else, they are desperate to find something that makes them feel better about themselves -- an escape tool vs. a living tool. That aside there is another issue with MP and that is one's ability to filter out the superfluous data and see only what is valid.

I've not the time, space nor desire to dive into this rather extensive issue but it's safe to say that the mental/psychological aspects are in fact the most common mode of influence when it comes to OBE and NDE scenarios. To a very limited degree, there will be personal variances tied to such believed excursions yet, the majority do tend to pattern off of the primitive imagery found in shamanic journey's and spirit quests as well as the physical rituals associated with such.

CRITICS and DOUBTERS of this or any similar subject will always choose to find (nit pick) those nuances in which things seem askew, mostly due to their need to be "right" and thus, sustained when it comes to non-belief and the faux superiority that creates for them in their own psyche -- there's always a component of self-gratification regardless one's view, which is something persons on either side of such issues frequently fail to acknowledge. . . it's very hard to stay in the middle of the mix which, in my experience, is where you tend to find the greater truth of things. ;)
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 09 Jul 2011, 02:36

My data is very simple:
Take the most legitimate study from each coulture and religion and then compare the stats.
If you compare Western NDEs, they have a patter of coulture and Christianity.
But if you compare it to same numbers from other continents and religions the pattern becomes similar to mathematical propability.

If you say that there is a pattern it doesn't make it a pattern-just words.

Reincarnation has biggest stats in Asia which is obvious due to religion.
Majority of proof was hypothetical at best. I don't know what age has to do with it. Western studies are mostly unsupported by facts, just words and beliving the author. Some of the kids saw themselves and then recognized themselves from a morgue photos even tho there were mostly more people than one with the quoted name, other names were mostly unfounded.
If you take a person who out of 5 supposly previous lives gives one name(and only a correct name from the region he/she lives) does it make a propability of reincarnation to you?

You call me a closed minded because I see less than 10per cent of overall and it doesn't make it a pattern in the whole 100per cent?
Doesn't make sense.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Craig Browning » 09 Jul 2011, 23:24

If I'm understanding your argument correctly, the fact that eastern and western subjects have affects in their NDE based on culture & faith. . . I believe I echoed the same but then pointed out that certain common elements exist in each. The problem is, the skeptical mind choses to redefine or categorize such things so as to fit their view as to how things are and aren't . . . or so such things prove to be quite typical.

When it comes to Reincarnation, the most progressive research on the subject is actually being done in the U.S. on American/Western European type individuals (though a handful from eastern cultures have been welcomes for one or another reason) I'm unable to find the article at the moment, but the UTNE Reader did a fantastic article on this particular group and the topic a few years ago as has the news show 60-Minutes on CBS. What is being discovered is the fact that children under 8 years of age and who show a sevante-like nature (particularly when it comes to math, music and physics) tend to have both, the belief that they lived in a previous time, but the ability to given some hard to argue specifics that support said claim. These children tend to be exceptionally intelligent, have had no familial or environmental exposure to the idea of reincarnation let alone the regions & histories claimed as memories.

I personally encountered a handful of related events that support this issue as well, starting with a boy that would throw horrible tantrums from the time he was able to speak, when it came to people calling him by his given name. He would insist that his name was something other (I'll not say it) and this continued well into his 4th grade year in school when he explained to a teacher who'd ticked him off, that "There was a day I'd have your head for treating me like this. . ." The teacher in question sore that the boys' featured visibly changed along with his voice and demeanor. . . I can't say if that's so, but the poor lady was never the same after said event.

No, the boy has no psychiatric/psychological issues; today he is gainfully self-employed as a computer tech living in south-western Ohio.

I'll not go into any other details when it comes to the "environment" surrounding this boy and his family, only to say that several other incarnates were involved who, in this life-time, were complete strangers and yet, upon meeting knew exactly who the other person was even before anything was mentioned. One set of individuals being a woman who had aborted her child in a previous life-time and the person she met in this time was that child. . . long story but rather interesting to say the least.

More than any other spiritual "theory" some form of reincarnation can be found the world over; it is a constant of sorts. The only reason it is not part of the Western culture traditions is that it was removed from the christian teachings in the mid-5th century c.e. by the council @ Constantinople, otherwise it can be found there as well as in older Hebrew teachings.

As I said previously, there's really no way to give to the disbelieving the sort of tangible proof they demand when it comes to this and several other issues. Science may one day develop the resources that can reveal this constant, but we're simply not there yet. ;)
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 10 Jul 2011, 02:28

Yes, I did mean religious and cultural conditioning.
I am sorry for my poor english.

I based my conclusion on putting all known to me experiments together and then checking particular patterns against the whole accumulated result.
All patterns from sub groups gave little to none per centage in the big result.

That is why I always say there isn't really a pattern.
If media says it, it ususally mentions only one cultural/religious group or don't even check what pattern it really is.

Otherwise I would assume that NDE and reincarnation happens differently for West and East. I know it is maybe possible and your discussion makes sense all the time.
I just need a general sense, unbeatable theory at least and I am open minded in that direction.
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Re: Open Minded Atheist admits Near Death Experiences are re

Postby Js1981 » 10 Jul 2011, 02:39

Just to make it simpler.

Western patterns in research often contradict Eastern.

A pattern reaching over 50per cent in one cultere not only drops to 25 in whole excersise but gets arguments against its existence in a whole as well.

A plausible theory would at least make sense in different coultures as it would be unconditioned by anything.

As example:
If all western research points seeing a 'going up in a tunnel' during NDE, majority of Eastern say 'going down under the ground' looking for a conclusion or reaching each part of it as a pattern doen't make sense to me.
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