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Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

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Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Oct 2009, 09:15

From Reuters
An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake.

The shroud, measuring 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches bears the image, eerily reversed like a photographic negative, of a crucified man some believers say is Christ.

"We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli, who is due to illustrate the results at a conference on the para-normal this weekend in northern Italy, said on Monday.


Garlaschelli used methods and materials that were available in the middle ages to reproduce the full-sized shroud. He placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer, rubbing it with a pigment containing small amounts of acid. A mask was used for the face.

He then artificially aged the pigment by heating the cloth in an oven and then washing it. This process, which removed the pigment from the surface, left blurry, halftone images similar to those seen on the original Shroud. Bloodstains, burn holes, scorches and water stains were then added to achieve the finishing effects.

Garlaschelli anticipates that some may contest his findings.

"If they don't want to believe carbon dating done by some of the world's best laboratories they certainly won't believe me," he told Reuters.

An Italian association of atheists and agnostics funded Garlaschelli’s work, but had no impact on the results, he said.

"Money has no odor."

"This was done scientifically. If the Church wants to fund me in the future, here I am," he said


For more info on this mythbuster read Exploring the Science of Miracleshttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/04/AR2005110401838.html
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Don » 08 Oct 2009, 03:23

This is a perfect example of bad science and bad debunking.

It's based on a simple logical fallacy: A is like B, therefore, A is B. However, it simply doesn't follow.

In this example, a scientist, through a complex process, was able to give a reasonable duplicate of the Shroud. A (the new version) is like B (the original Shroud).

Then, like all pseudo-skeptics, they jump to the illogical conclusion that the original Shroud must have been made in the same way.

Sorry, guys. That illogical and bad science. You would still have to show that it actually was made the same way.

This bad science goes the other way, too. I remember reading about some bozos who claimed they could make a liquid that would solidify into large blocks that match those of the great pyramid of Cheops. Merely being able to do something does not prove that the original was made that way. I've been performing illusions of bending keys by "mind power" for decades. Are their people who can actually do it? I don't know. The fact that I can get the same result by faking it doesn't prove that others fake it, it only proves that it can be faked.

Disclaimer: Personally, from actual scientific evidence, I'm inclined to think that the original Shroud is a medieval forgery. I see no reason to believe it was necessarily forged in the complex was created by these debuker/bad scientists.
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby quantumparanormal » 08 Oct 2009, 05:27

Don wrote:You would still have to show that it actually was made the same way.


Isn't this how they were able to figure it out?

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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Oct 2009, 06:41

Sorry Don. Totally disagree with you. They do point out that their way is not necessarily the manner in which the forgery was reproduced. So your argument just matches their argument.

So your claim that they are pseudo-skeptics only suggests you did not bother reading their statement.

Hmmm. Sounds like your input may have been unfounded.

No bad science - reading counts.
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Don » 11 Oct 2009, 01:59

And yet ALL of the news reports talk about this as a debunking but not one of the scientists have said that this doesn't disprove anything as you claim. A lie of omission is still a lie.
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Oct 2009, 02:35

Don wrote:And yet ALL of the news reports talk about this as a debunking but not one of the scientists have said that this doesn't disprove anything as you claim. A lie of omission is still a lie.


I find that omitting facts to be the norm with media reports. They call it 'space limitations' and I call it poor reporting of the facts. It's all spin.
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Nostradamus » 11 Oct 2009, 10:05

And yet ALL of the news reports talk about this as a debunking but not one of the scientists have said that this doesn't disprove anything as you claim. A lie of omission is still a lie.


Don't punish the information source because of someone else's comments on the subject.

Finding out what is going on requires research. That means checking sources.

It is so common for people to dismiss things by saying they didn't have the technology, or the no how, or this wasn't invented until this date. Here we have someone that make a reasonable likeness using materials and technologies available at the time suggested by the carbon dating. That makes the "no way couldn't do it" argument less firm.

Don, oneof the great mysteries of the ancients was the manufacture of small gold balls. How did they do it? They were able to make small gold balls that were similar in size and lots of them. And they were round. Too small to cast. Too small to shape.

My understanding is that the technology to produce these small gold balls was discovered serendipitously - by making a mistake. Still the technology was rediscovered and small gold balls were once again made.
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Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Postby Nostradamus » 23 Nov 2009, 02:16

Here is an a new article on the Shroud of Turin: Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091121/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin_14

The article lists all of the clashing ideas about the origin of the Shroud such as radiocarbon dating, pollen, words and even the coins over the eyes that do not exist.

Decades ago, entire studies were published on coins purportedly seen on Jesus' closed eyes, but when high-definition images were taken during a 2002 restoration, the artifacts were nowhere to be seen and the theory was dropped, Garlaschelli said.


Seems that not everyone agrees that there are letters and words on the Shroud.
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