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What is your definition of atheism?

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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 03 Jun 2012, 04:30

I had noticed Ellie seemed to have looked in for about a week, then vanished. Maybe synchronicity will bring her back.

Craig, I woiuldn't consider you an atheist in any except the most narrow defintion of the word, and even then your atheism is so soft it would be more in the eye of the beholder than in your own philosophy. I would call you agnostic, using the word as an adjective. Your philosophy seems to correspond in some ways with "soft pantheism" and "hard Jungianism". Your description of the blinders hard atheism imposes fit well with my observations.

Less bored now. Thanx for all the responses.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Arouet » 03 Jun 2012, 08:34

And just to be a little more pedantic in a definition thread - remember that agonsticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism is about knowledge. A(theism) is about belief. So you have agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 03 Jun 2012, 09:26

Arouet wrote:And just to be a little more pedantic in a definition thread - remember that agonsticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism is about knowledge. A(theism) is about belief. So you have agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.



I believe you are right, but my methodology may be wrong ;)
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Craig Browning » 03 Jun 2012, 22:20

Arouet wrote:And just to be a little more pedantic in a definition thread - remember that agonsticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism is about knowledge. A(theism) is about belief. So you have agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.


Now there you go, confusing things. . .

While yes, I better identify to being Agnostic, it is more due to what I was told it meant when in High School; the belief in a higher power but not necessarily the biblical idea thereof. Knowledge however, is something I identify with as part of spiritual belief i.e. Gnosticism, which I tend to relate to far closer to most any other "defined" tradition in that most of gnosticism has no formal dogma that envelopes it. Too, Gnosticism as I understand it, is more receptive to genuine knowledge and the evolution thereof e.g. science and the natural evolution of the human animal and human society as the result of said catalyst.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Arouet » 04 Jun 2012, 02:25

Craig Browning wrote:While yes, I better identify to being Agnostic, it is more due to what I was told it meant when in High School; the belief in a higher power but not necessarily the biblical idea thereof.


Yeah, sorry, you were misinformed.

(a)theism is about belief or disbelief in the god. A(gnosticm) is about the knowledge one has about that.

Knowledge however, is something I identify with as part of spiritual belief i.e. Gnosticism, which I tend to relate to far closer to most any other "defined" tradition in that most of gnosticism has no formal dogma that envelopes it. Too, Gnosticism as I understand it, is more receptive to genuine knowledge and the evolution thereof e.g. science and the natural evolution of the human animal and human society as the result of said catalyst.


Don't confuse the christian group the "Gnostics" with the general definition of the words a(gnosticism)
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Jun 2012, 22:04

There were many types of Gnostic fellowships not just Christian and even in that vein, not all were of "like mind" (some are even questionable when it comes to if or not they even existed, given how certain facets in the orthodoxy felt it perfectly fine to write bogus scripture or edit existing materials so as to make them damnable).
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Arouet » 04 Jun 2012, 23:56

Craig Browning wrote:There were many types of Gnostic fellowships not just Christian and even in that vein, not all were of "like mind" (some are even questionable when it comes to if or not they even existed, given how certain facets in the orthodoxy felt it perfectly fine to write bogus scripture or edit existing materials so as to make them damnable).


sure - I'm just saying when we refer to gnosticism here we're not talking about any of those, but rather one's consideration of one's knoweldge of god/not god
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby critusodem » 27 Jul 2012, 10:43

I suppose this works for me:
An atheist, in the general sense, is a person who does not believe in the existence of any gods. Atheism is the corresponding philosophical position. Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism, as atheism may or may not refer to a stance on the theistic question, depending on the individual in question and how the term 'atheism' is meant. Arguments over whether or not atheism constitutes a belief are often based on one side assuming that the term always does or always doesn’t constitute a positivist statement, and therefore, a belief.

From: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 29 Jul 2012, 11:24

critusodem wrote:I suppose this works for me:
An atheist, in the general sense, is a person who does not believe in the existence of any gods. Atheism is the corresponding philosophical position. Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism, as atheism may or may not refer to a stance on the theistic question, depending on the individual in question and how the term 'atheism' is meant. Arguments over whether or not atheism constitutes a belief are often based on one side assuming that the term always does or always doesn’t constitute a positivist statement, and therefore, a belief.

From: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism



Excellent. By that definition, for Marxist, Objectivists, O"Harites, and Dawkinites the non-existence of God is an article of faith, but for the Hawkingsites and even the Saganites, it is not.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby critusodem » 29 Jul 2012, 17:17

Twain Shakespeare wrote:
critusodem wrote:I suppose this works for me:
An atheist, in the general sense, is a person who does not believe in the existence of any gods. Atheism is the corresponding philosophical position. Atheism may or may not be a position of faith, depending on the type of atheism, as atheism may or may not refer to a stance on the theistic question, depending on the individual in question and how the term 'atheism' is meant. Arguments over whether or not atheism constitutes a belief are often based on one side assuming that the term always does or always doesn’t constitute a positivist statement, and therefore, a belief.

From: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism



Excellent. By that definition, for Marxist, Objectivists, O"Harites, and Dawkinites the non-existence of God is an article of faith, but for the Hawkingsites and even the Saganites, it is not.


If I felt I could explain this better than the author from IronChariots, I would not be simply providing the quoted material below.

Per the same URL:
Strong atheism

A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists are rarer than most people think.
For the above reason, strong atheism is sometimes criticized for "requiring faith." This criticism often rests on the assumption that faith is a fault, which, if spoken by an arguer whose stance rests on faith, is self-defeating in a direct sense. Other times this idea is argued by theists to 'bring them down to our level'. Most often it is argued as a 'your stance is no better than mine' argument. Often, this is successful in derailing the conversation, as many atheists are uncomfortable with admitting that any element of their thoughts contain faith. Users of this wiki are advised to consider that, in the literal epistemic sense, all knowledge eventually requires some basic assumptions, and that assumption is functionally identical to faith. The difference relies not in avoiding faith/assumption, but in grounding one's knowledge in firmer and more well-reasoned thought.
Strong atheism is also called 'positivist' atheism. In this usage the term 'positivist' comes from the root 'to posit' meaning 'to take a position'. Thus a positivist atheist is one who has taken the position that there are no gods.



Not everyone (not even all atheists) agree with the definitions above (which are based on academic sources). For instance, the authors of Evil Bible seem to define atheism as denial of the existence of any gods, or the (positive) belief that there are no gods. Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, does reserve the terms theism, agnosticism and atheism on a Spectrum of Theistic Probability from 1 (I know that a God does exist) to 7 (I know that a God does not exist). In other words, "atheist", for Dawkins, is synonymous with "strong atheist", as above.


The use of the terms atheist and atheism from atheist's should cease as how they are labeling themselves. It nearly always will lead to negative consequences on various levels.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 29 Jul 2012, 19:08

Unless it part of the cult again, as witness the cults I mentioned above.

I am in the embarassing position tho, of having to change me religion from "radical agnosticism" ie (stong and positivist agnosticism ) or the certainty that knowlege is impssible, to weak agnosticism or, I'll admit, experiential gnosticism
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby astrologerrohan » 04 Aug 2012, 20:19

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
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Re: What is your definition of atheism?

Postby Arouet » 04 Aug 2012, 21:15

astrologerrohan wrote:Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
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I disagre that the lack of belief in a deity implies any of those things. How could it? One data point: "I don't believe in a deity" and you suddenly get all that?

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