How can America be a Christian Nation and a Free Country?

[Scepcop]

Patriotic God fearing Americans often tout that "America is the land of the free and the epitome of freedom" yet that it is also "a Christian nation" or at least based on Christian ethics and values.

Though there is debate over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists, America is still seen by many as being founded on Christian principles and ideals, which are ingrained in our culture, ethics and morals.

Yet the slightest cursory glance at the Bible and Christian faith reveals that it is inherently fascist in nature. The Bible teaches that if you do whatever you want or live your life however you want, you are living in sin and rebellion against God. Throughout the Bible, the message is that if you don't obey God and follow his commandments, you will be punished and damned. The Christian message is that freedom is evil, while obedience and giving your life and will to God is good. Likewise, in fascist Nazi Germany, anyone who didn't obey was shot or imprisoned. Dissension was not allowed. Fear of punishment was the motivator. Therefore, Christianity is essentially a "fascist religion".

Christianity and Fascism share the following core attributes:

a) Obey or be punished.
b) No independent thoughts. Must think with the hive.
c) No tolerance for dissension or free speech.
d) Your God or dictator is to be feared, for fear keeps you in line and protects authority.
e) The use of fear and guilt as psychological control mechanisms.
f) The view that the individual is weak and powerless, and his/her life is without purpose, unless aligned to serve a "higher power" (e.g. God, tyrant or dictator).

Now this isn't to say that Jesus himself was a fascist. Assuming he existed (which is not a proven fact), he could very well have been a well meaning person spreading a good spiritual message to help people. It's what the Church and elite power structure DID with his name and the religion around him that they established that turned Christianity into a fundamentalist religion and a fascist form of control over others.

So anyway, how can you believe in religious fascism and a "land of the free" at the same time?! How can you deem freedom as the highest value yet preach a religion where freedom is considered evil and obedience to God is the only good? How can you claim the right of free speech yet support a religion that doesn't allow dissension? You can't. It's a total contradiction. Yet they preach it nonetheless. It's another example of Orwellian "double think". Therefore, living with the ideals of freedom and fascism at the same time is a Catch-22.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. When you look deeper, the contradictions become even more numerous.

For example, how can you support the American value of individualism and at the same time the Christian belief that the individual is nothing unless he/she submits to the Christian God and obeys him? If you truly believed in individual free will, you cannot endorse the punishment of individuals who freely choose not to surrender to the "hive mentality" of the Christian Church. There's no way around it if you think about it. (but then again you are not meant to think about it, only to obey all that you are told)

Furthermore, as the Apostle Paul said in his Epistles (Romans 6), we are "slaves to sin" before accepting Christ. But once you accept Christ and start following God's commandments, you are "set free" from sin and become "slaves to righteousness" as Paul put it. In other words, when you are free, you are "slaves to sin", but when you submit your will to God and give up your freedom, then you are "set free from sin"! How can you be "set free" by submitting to fascism?! What could be more ridiculous than that?! Golly. The mind control here couldn't be more obvious.

Also, how can you preach the "love of God" and the "fear of God" at the same time? You can't love and fear something at the same time. Love and fear are totally different vibrations of energy that are not compatible. Fear operates on a lower denser vibration while love is on a higher faster more dynamic frequency.

Moreover, these same "religious patriots" also declare Capitalism to be based on the Christian values and principles of hard work and virtuous labor. Yet Capitalism teaches that greed and the accumulation of wealth is a GOOD thing, and encourages self-interest as a primary motivator of the free enterprise system. But on the other hand, the Bible teaches that greed is a BAD thing and leads to sin and destruction, which is taught in many examples and parables in the Bible. As Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Though Bible verses can be interpreted in different ways, there is no question that greed is taught to be a bad thing in the Bible. So again we have two mutually exclusive values. Yet these religious patriots don't see it or reconcile it. They are under mass mind control too, and are not as free as they think they are.

Here's another oddity. We are taught in schools that man arouse from Evolution and random mutations of nature. Yet we have "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill, the swearing of Bibles in the courtroom, the words "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance, and virtually all politicians and US Presidents professing to believe in God (since Atheists can't get elected). And good citizens are expected to go to church too. Another Orwellian double think?

You gotta remember that religion was set up not to free you, but to contain you. And authority is set up to control people, not to serve them. This is why fascist religions like Christianity and Islam constantly seek to convert and dominate others, both in their homeland and abroad, for that is the inherent nature of fascism and tyranny. It's all about control and conquest, not just of lives, but of minds as well.

Religion limits and closes your mind into a rigid belief system that EDITS OUT any new information that doesn't fit into it. It restricts you from seeing reality and others the way they are, removing objectivity and clarity of thought. Yet you are sold the opposite, that religion will "free you". If that isn't mind control and brainwashing, then I don't know what is.

Learn to free your mind, and you will recognize anything in disguise that tries to enslave and control you, and see through their lies.

For more on how Christianity and other fascist religions are used as mass mind control, listen to David Icke's dissertation on it here:

[Craig Browning]

Some clarification is needed here...

Firstly, it's sounding that you are mixing the traditions of both, old & new testaments. Many people do, not realizing that the two represent different "theologies" for lack of a better term. Too, you are looking at "the Gospels" through tainted eyes; that is to say that the level of exposure most of us in the western world get when it comes to christian fanaticism has poisoned our views, causing us to put all the chicks in the same basket when such isn't accurate.

Yes, any theocratic society is fascist by nature; this is MAN doing what man does -- bastardizing the simple by inserting both, ego and personal/group agenda into the language of scripture or, as we've seen a lot in the past couple of decades, THE LAW... which, when you really break it all down, is to a large extent what the bible (both testaments) is all about...

(and this is a very big but) what 99.9% of all Christians fail to weigh is the number of non-Christians/non-Jews within the two aspects of scripture, "God" and his prophets praise and honor... everyone from the 3 Wise-men (Astrologers, no less) and the Good Samaritan to the mage's and priests of various mystical orders noted in the old testament as messengers -- mystics NOT part of "the faith" but more to the point, individuals and cultures "god" doesn't condemn. But there's more to weigh here... JC himself hung around and was best associated with the "dredges" of society; prostitutes, thieves, drunkards, even tax collectors and murderers as well as the poor... the very people today's church-goers would toss out on their ear without a second's thought. Sure, they are "charitable" but ALWAYS with strings attached -- Convert or Die! -- just ask any nation conquered in the name of Christianity... including most of the present day UK (HINT: Ireland never had snakes, there is no fossil record supporting said tale. However, they did have a sect of Druids known as Adders who used snakes as part of their crest and too, the beaded prayer "belt" they were known for... kind of like a Rosary)

When it comes to any religious ideology, we must always understand that the philosophy itself is typically neutral for the most part, it's what MEN (primarily) do with it that corrupts it. With the exception of Confucianism every major teachings known to humankind has suffered this indignity; the Confucian teachings offering one of the only real non-violent cultures in history with Buddhism coming in at a close second. We can't say that about ANY of the three Abrahamic traditions; all three have had their blood-flowing eras and each still retain strong dogmatic attitudes. When it comes to the big 3 the attitude has always been militaristic, but then this has always been the chief mode of eliciting converts... and yes, Judaism is just as guilty, a quick look at the various conquests and acts of genocide waged by the Jews in the Old Testament and it becomes apparent... they really have reaped what was sewn. But, it's even more obvious how the FRINGE aspects of Islam and Christianity rely not on the scriptures but an iron hand, when it comes to sustaining their prejudices and cult influence in the world.

[Scepcop]

Good points Craig Browning, but I wasn't talking about the original teachings of Jesus. I was talking about the modern Christian fundamentalist tenets and values that the religious patriots believe in and claim embodies America.

Did you see the 10 minute lecture on religion by David Icke above? If so, what did you think of what he said?

[Craig Browning]

I'm uncertain if this is or not the same one I've seen in the past, I've had a back & forth curiosity with Icke for years.

My concern centered on clarification, the biggest point (which I admit, I really didn't get to) being that the modern zealot AREN'T CHRISTIANS! Just as the 21st Century Muslim fringe groups aren't true to the essence of Islam... or the Tea Baggers being nothing that resembles the true Republican idea

I detest all forms of fanaticism in that it reveals humanity in its lowest form on all fronts. Most fanatics are bigots that use their theocracy as an excuse to hate, suppress and exterminate while believing their martyrdom will take them to some Celestial Palace filled with EARTHLY treasures... something that just don't add up in any of the older teachings tied to each cult... but that's aside the point.


My mother could be the poster child for the Southern-Baptist/Republican statement; though she's known since I was four and five years of age that I had an affinity for boys, she still denies it and refuses to discuss it or have anything to do with anyone I've been in a relationship with EXCEPT the widow who was my best friend and her kids... even unmarried she saw it far better than having a fag as a son... but when Marcy and I went our separate ways it sent her over the top because one side of the "break-up" (a pre-set thing, actually) was because I had become tired of being "alone" and not having a more fulfilling sense of relationship (a.k.a. I needed SEX!)

Anywho... This country was NOT founded by god fearing Christian but rather Free Masons and persons that leant more in the Pagan/Gnostic direction; people that promoted a more pragmatic and "Universal" sense of divinity NOT the Bible as it was understood by the majority of puritans and politically motivated evangelists. The whole Pilgrim & Plymouth tale being void of the fact that nearly all of these people were "criminals" being sent to a penal colony... which is what "the colonies" were originally, and they were governed by some high & mighty Puritan types of the Protestant bend... task masters for lack of a better term. Anyone that sought to stand up against them would frequently be placed in the stocks or some other mode of humiliation UNLESS, those rebelling had a more solid "political" sense of social embrace... and this is long before John Adams and all the others started that little war with Mother England.

If you ever step foot in the churches or public building of the latter 1600s and forward, you can find the esoteric "signs" that denote who is really in charge, and while the many flavors of Christianity have known their 15-Minutes of fame, they've never been the real power or guiding "moral" force that made America "great"

[Scepcop]

Here's another oddity:

We are taught in schools that man arouse from Evolution and random mutations of nature. Yet we have "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill, the swearing of Bibles in the courtroom, the words "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance, and virtually all politicians and US Presidents professing to believe in God (since Atheists can't get elected). And good citizens are expected to go to church too. Another Orwellian double think?

Another Orwellian double think?

[Craig Browning]

[stevetrueblue]

"Patriotic God fearing Americans often tout that "America is the land of the free and the epitome of freedom"

That phrase is heard mostly from schoolkids. Its a sign of naivete. Schoolkids say here in OZ "its a free country"

It reflects the thoughtless naivete of childhood, that in many people carries on, for their whole lifetime
because they never question their own childhood beliefs.

Basic beliefs propagated are manifestly false. Such as "you go to school to get an education". Well not really, you are schooled to equip you to consume, conform and pay taxes. And replace yourself. Public education was started in 19th century Industrial England to produce an educated work force for Capitalism. At state expense of course.

The "freedom thing" is a complete mirage. Virtually everything is compulsory in modern societies.
The only freedom left in OZ is NOT donating your organs at death. Its bound to be compulsory soon.

The contradiction of much touted freedom compared to the seemingly fascist instructions from holy books might bear closer examination.
Yes, religions are largely about control but a person reading a fascist holy book is likely to ignore the bits they don't like. Give them some credit for that. So we must not ignore /undervalue the readers ability to interpret/ignore things and simply be eclectic for their own personal development. So religions are only a frame work that people can adopt to varying degrees. Obvious mistakes in holy books are no problem because they teach the reader to be critical and exercise their own reasoning (hopefully )

And Christian values arise spontaneously in most people anyway, even atheists, which religions can't be blamed for.

These spontaneous values occur in most societies. Where is murder legal, stealing encouraged, adultery compulsory, mistreating others encouraged ?

Mixing fear and love in the same phrase should encourage people to exercise their judgment. Its a test of the reader.

The fear advice is clearly an insertion by scribes priests etc to hopefully improve compliance to state requirements.Its worked for many centuries controlling the gullible. What a scam !

This control stuff works easily on gullible literalists.

But not on the interpretive reader.

Word freedom has a profound effect on our emotions regardless of its artificiality, bypassing our defensive reasoning. its so unreal it practically qualifies as a religious concept because their is no evidence to support its existence. You only have freedom to comply.

Powerful message it is in politics used by conservatives always saying "freedom of choice" is vital to capitalism when they campaign for single entity state owned assets to be privatised and chopped up and the best parts given to rich bastards. The having freedom of choice of 31 brands of the same thing is claimed to be more efficient

Emotional button pushing with keywords works, to push lies, again and again, bypassing our defensive reasoning, conditioning us, Pavloving us to associate mutually exclusive concepts as completely harmonious.

So a glib answer to the original question is that we are conditioned by our society to lie and be lied to about a great many things. In fact nearly everything. Taking a courtroom oath swearing to to tell the truth implies that normally people lie.