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New and have a question?

Postby diddyp333 » 21 Dec 2009, 00:11

Hi there. Ive recently been looking a this site and have found it very interesting. I dont know if im a believer or skeptic. bit of both i suppose. I like looking at the scientific evidence for survival of conciousness and the arguments for and against an afterlife/paranormal activity/psi ect. I believe that there is so much evidence around for this type of thing all be it anecdotal but i do have a question. Please excuse me if ive posted this in the wrong section:

1. With the evidence for n.d.e.s ect and an afterlife. If your conciuosness continues after you die. what happens if you were to get some kind of illness in your life which were to make you clinicly lose your mind shall we say ie schizophrenia or mad cow disease or something which effects the brain so much that your just not the same person anymore. how would this effect your afterlife if there is one? i only ask this as i cant seem to find any answers that account for someone who loses their mind. i can except the possibilitys of mediums afterlife and continuied conciuosness but this is where all the theories break down for me as the person that was you is now no longer there.

I hope this makes sense and sorry about any spelling mistakes.

Many thanks.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2009, 04:03

Hi and Welcome diddyp. Somewhere around here there is a topic that may answer some of your questions. I can't seem to find it but here's a link to the recordings. Somewhere in those recordings are some answers. Perhaps other members here can recall a more direct link: http://www.leslieflint.com/index.html
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby CHUCKFTA » 21 Dec 2009, 07:43

This is the link your are looking for > http://freewebs.com/afterlife/flint/flintrecordings.htm

Welcome to the forum
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 21 Dec 2009, 19:29

Thanks Chuck!
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Nostradamus » 23 Dec 2009, 06:47

That's an interesting question diddyp. One of the more celebrated case studies of brain injury was the case of Phineas Gage. He received a devastating injury to his frontal lobe, but recovered. He was alive but as people said at the time he was no longer Phineas Gage. Since he became quite different due to a physical injury I wonder if the "spirit" is separable from the physical person. It appears to me that in this case the evidence suggests that the body and "spirit" are inseparable, i.e. the "spirit" is defined by the physical person. Major changes are seen to people due to strokes, asphyxiation, trauma, drugs, chemical exposure, etc. suggesting to me that the "spirit" is a by product of the physical person.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Eteponge » 23 Dec 2009, 08:19

Nostradamus wrote:That's an interesting question diddyp. One of the more celebrated case studies of brain injury was the case of Phineas Gage. He received a devastating injury to his frontal lobe, but recovered. He was alive but as people said at the time he was no longer Phineas Gage. Since he became quite different due to a physical injury I wonder if the "spirit" is separable from the physical person. It appears to me that in this case the evidence suggests that the body and "spirit" are inseparable, i.e. the "spirit" is defined by the physical person. Major changes are seen to people due to strokes, asphyxiation, trauma, drugs, chemical exposure, etc. suggesting to me that the "spirit" is a by product of the physical person.

The Transmission Theory of Consciousness, to me, has always been the only model to reconcile brain damage with an eternal self. This suggests that rather than the brain being the producer of consciousness, it is the receiver and decoder of consciousness, like a Television Set is to the Signal it receives and decodes.

The concept goes like this: A TV Set receives and decodes an external Signal which translates into a watchable program. Take a baseball bat to the TV Set, and you damage the receiver, but the signal is still as strong as ever. The TV Set will now malfunction, producing garbled and distorted picture and sound, but the Signal itself is unharmed. While we are in physical form, our consciousness is mediated by the brain, the hardware to the software. Brain damage affects us because the receiver has been damaged, not the signal.

Another example is like playing the latest Computer Video Game on an outdated computer, the game will run like shit, and have all sorts of graphical and audio anomalies and problems, even though there is nothing wrong with the Computer Video Game itself, but the Hardware you are running it on.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Nostradamus » 23 Dec 2009, 10:29

That's very interesting Eteponge. Can you think of a way that a test might distinguish between being a receiver and being the source?
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Eteponge » 23 Dec 2009, 23:29

Nostradamus wrote:That's very interesting Eteponge. Can you think of a way that a test might distinguish between being a receiver and being the source?

Some of the main proponents of the theory seem to be NDE Researchers such as Pim Van Lommel (who did the famous Lancet Research Study on NDEs that was peer reviewed). His reasoning are the cases where people are clinically dead, showing no brain activity, no gag reflex, fixed pupil dilation, etc, reporting a clear consciousness, with memories, reasoning, experience, etc, during this time, outside of their body, often witnessing events at significant distances away from their clinically dead body (witnessing objects or conversations or events in other areas of the hospital, on the roof, in the waiting room, etc). Blind people during NDE seeing events like this as well, etc. (One of the most curious of this type I've read about, was a man who went totally blind in his 20s, couldn't even see shadows, had an NDE / OBE in his 50s, and came back telling the doctor he was wearing a green and red tie, among other goings on in the room that were entirely visual, like the reading on a monitor.)

As well as PSI Researchers, and pretty much Survival Researchers across the board. They say if these phenomenon are indicative of survival of self, then the transmission theory is the best model to explain how that works.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Nostradamus » 24 Dec 2009, 00:34

It turns out I have read about Pim Van Lommel's paper. I was able to find his response to an article Schermer wrote for Scientific American.

What is interesting is that the brain as a receiver requires that the brain can receive the information. That seems to open the door for testing. There must be some way to detect the brain receiving. The brain is matter and if the brain is receiving a signal from outside of the brain then that event should be detectable.

Also, I wonder why the brain as receiver receives only 1 input. TVs receive all sorts of inputs. They detect many channels and even nearby electric motors and storms. So why is the input limited.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby diddyp333 » 24 Dec 2009, 22:31

Thanks for all the replys guys. I have Had a look at the leslie flint stuff. very interesting and it all looks plausible however i cant get out of my mind the fact that the Mickey character who often comes through does sound like a man or woman doing a rather poor impersonation of an eleven year old child...ive never heard a young boy speak like that. also all the male voices do tend to have a similarity to each other. I have read a few things on pimm van lovell and yes that is interesting. I hear what your saying about the blind man being able to see during an nde but the fact he usedto be able to see until he was 20 kind of explains it away. I do remember reading something though about a guy who was blind from birth and always dreamed without sight.. having an nde and being able to see. very interesting! yep heard the brain/tv analogy before and it does sound plausible to. What about altzheimmers? would the same apply to the spirit and also what about if your born with mental illness are you then a different person in the afterlife if you apply the tv theory?


sorry again about spelling mistakes!
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby CHUCKFTA » 25 Dec 2009, 00:29

Mickeys' accent (British) probably gives the sence that a man is trying to talk as a young person. But, from the recordings I have learned that as they draw themselves to the earth plane they will take on their personality at the point that they passed over, Mickey being around ten years of age comes through with that accent.
As far as the men coming through and sounding similar it is because they are using the same artificial larynx (voice box) that is constructed for everyone.
Betty Green one of the two sitters that sat with Flint discusses the works of the Direct Voice and explains it I think nicely.

http://66.49.237.205/Flint/LF%20Betty%20Greene.wma

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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Eteponge » 26 Dec 2009, 00:03

diddyp333 wrote: I hear what your saying about the blind man being able to see during an nde but the fact he usedto be able to see until he was 20 kind of explains it away.

No it doesn't. It actually makes it far more credible than the people who were born blind who later have a visual NDE / OBE. Why? Colors.

People who were born blind, who suddenly have a visual NDE / OBE, do not know the difference between colors, since they never got to see a color and were told "this is green, this is blue, this is red", etc, they have no frame of reference for that.

The man who went blind in his 20s, went totally blind, couldn't even see shadows, but he remembered colors. So, during his NDE / OBE, he was able to remember what colors were what that he was seeing, and report back on the colors of things in the room he was seeing, like the doctor's tie.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby diddyp333 » 27 Dec 2009, 21:48

oh yes ok... i suppose that makes sense! question though?.....does the guy who went blind when he was 20 dream with vision? Im just saying that a sceptics argument would be that he could have dreamed it. where as if you were blind from birth and suddenly had vision in an obe there would be no way it was a dream as if i think im right if your blind from birth you dont dream with vision?
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Dec 2009, 23:08

diddyp333 wrote:oh yes ok... i suppose that makes sense! question though?.....does the guy who went blind when he was 20 dream with vision? Im just saying that a sceptics argument would be that he could have dreamed it. where as if you were blind from birth and suddenly had vision in an obe there would be no way it was a dream as if i think im right if your blind from birth you dont dream with vision?


Diddy, you forgot something important. The example that Eteponge gave was where a blind man CORRECTLY described colors of certain objects in the operating room, such as the doctor's green pen. The dream hypothesis doesn't explain that. That was the key point you missed.

Btw, see the BBC program on NDE's that I posted in the videos board. Near the end, a blind woman who was blind from birth had an NDE and was able to see for the first time in her life. That is something the skeptics can't explain.
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Re: New and have a question?

Postby Scepcop » 27 Dec 2009, 23:19

Diddy, I forwarded your question to my spiritual advisor, and here is her response:


Hi Win... If you would be so kind as to forward this reply to diddyp333 I would appreciate it. Perhaps something here will ring true for them.

~ Peace, Faith

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<< If your conciousness continues after you die. >>

AAahhhh ... but which "Death" are you referencing? Our so called "physical" death? OR... our True death, where our identity with our limited false ego dies away and we RE~Cognize our One TRUE SELF, Pure Consciousness, which is All pervasive and the SAME in ALL?



I used to wonder just what it was that "Realized BEings" ... Realized. Now I understand, from a Transcendent perspective.... from beyond the finite mind's ability to know. They realize their ONE TRUE Infinite SELF.. the one true constant, which is exactly the same in all. These Enlightened BEings grasp, beyond the finite intellect's ability to perceive, that Pure Consciousness itself has become ALL that is ... even as THAT remains Its Perfect SELF, untouched by the dream it has created and is WITNESS to. The very essense of this entire Universe is nothing but scintillating Consciousness. This is what scientists are coming to grasp via String Theory. Everything here is vibrating subtle energy, Consciousness itself, which freely CHOSES to manifest AS this Universe and everything in it... including our own finite selves.. which is nothing but contracted Consciousness.

A good analogy is the dream state which we get to experience via the finite mind.

Though we experience objects, other beings, and different places, via the mind while in the dream state, ... there is ultimately nothing SOLID there, but just the mind's EXPERIENCE of something tangable,(real or actual). Its ALL ultimately vibrating subtle energy... which is SELF AWARE.
What many scientists are coming to realize, and what the ancient mystic philosophers have known for eons, is that this entire Universe is SELF AWARE and that we ARE this Awareness, though currently limited or veiled if you will. Eventually the veil is lifted and each 'apparently' individual mind expands BACK into its INFINITE Awareness and we REALIZE.. I AM THAT.... Consciousness itself, the essense and building block of everything here. As the ancient sages put it ... the pot is not different from its clay. Likewise we are not different from anything.

There is ultimtely not MY awareness and YOUR awareness.. there is ONLY this ONE Infinite Awareness allowing its SELF to have all these different limited experiences... via the *mind. The mind being that non-physical / non-local contracted Consciousness / Awareness itself.

* The mind acts as an extremely sophisticated vertual reality machine allowing Pure Consciousness to have all these various experiences... all contained within ITs own SELF. This is what I AM the ONE is actually referencing. Not that this particular form is The ONE and that "other" forms are NOT The ONE, but that there is ONLY THE ONE Everywhere... manifesting as ALL THAT IS and IS Not. One as in ... there is no "OTHER" at all.

There is only the mind's EXPERIENCE of "OTHER", just as everyone in a dream is ultimately the creation of The Dreamer. The unawakened mind however cannot see the truth of this and continues to THINK there is ME and there is also THAT which is NOT ME. This is the ultimate lie which the false ego perpetuates... for lifetime after lifetime.

* Note: the *"physical " brain allows the non-physical mind to have a relationship with the physical form. When the brain ceases to function the only thing lost is our connection with that finite form of water and a few minerals. but what we ARE.... our Awareness itself as a seperate non-physical entity remains... in fact our awareness of Self actually EXPANDS. We lose nothing but our physical reality... which is aVERY contracted state, Once free of a phsycial form our awareness of self is able to expand tremendiously. At physical death we GAIN far more than we lose. Sort of like compressed foam becomng free of its container.
* Note: ( Ultimately NOTHING is "physical."... everything is vibrating subtle energy / Consciousness, just as nothing is actually physical in a dream)

& & &

Of course it rarely, if ever, occurs to people when they awaken from a dream .... a dream that their minds had fully accepted as their reality BEFORE they awoke .... that MAYBE they are still not actually AWAKE, but have merely shifted into another level of contracted awareness. Whatever is the mind's CURRENT reality is generally the accepted and so THE "real" one. But... it isn't the ultimate awakening as long as we are still EXPERIENCING ourselves as finite, individual beings via the mind and are still capable of suffering. YES.. that is A level of Consciousness but it is still not THE highest level, NOT our TRUE SELF.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There is a story of a king of long ago:

There was this king who ruled over a vast kingdom. He had so much wealth and land. He had everything a king could want for. But one night he had a dream that he was a poor starving peasant. In this dream he lived in a mud hut and did not even have proper clothing or a bed to sleep on. it all seemed so real that he began to weep. When he finally did awaken he found himself in his great wood carved bed with silk sheets trimmed in gold thread. He saw his royal clothing layed out and a servant standing by with a sumptuous breakfast. Still, the dream was so vivid in his mind that he could not be consoled. He was so shaken by the experience that he decided to call in his wisest advisors and put this question to them....

WHICH is REAL? Am I a pauper dreaming I am a king? OR.. am I a king dreaming I am a pauper? No one could answer the question to the king's satisfaction... so he posted a notice on the castle gates with a reward for anyone who could answer the question. Finally a young crippled lad (who also happened to be a Realized BEing), appeared and said he could help the king. The advisors chuckled saying... how could a young crippled child answer the question when so many elder advisors had failed? Nonetheless, the king was desperate so allowed him an audience. The boy explained to the king that though both had a limited reality to them in that they are experienced via the mind, NEITHER was THE Ultimate Reality since they were both subject to change, while the Supreme Truth is that which NEVER changes.

What was constant in both states was the King's own Awareness of BE~ing. The young but very wise boy explained how Supreme Consciousness... Pure Awareness itself ... allows its SELF to contract and fall into the dream of FINITE experience. Here the mind creates one thought after another, one reality after another. We SEEM to fall asleep and awaken. We SEEM to be born and die... and yet all this is nothing but the work of the mind... the creative tool of Consciousness itself. And for lifetime after lifetime we never catch on that it is ALL the dream of our own Creation.

Sometimes via the veiled mind, which is nothing but contracted Consciousness, we experience happiness, at other times we experience sadness. In this state of the contracted consciousness things always APPEAR to be changing... even though ULTIMATELY .... as in any dream, NOTHING is actually happening except WITHIN the mind itself.

Eventually we do begin a true awakening process. It starts when belief and hearsay no longer satisfies. It starts when we begin to ask the essential questions such as WHO AM I ? Where did I come from? WHY am I hear? These essential questions are actually triggers... they tell our Higher SELF that we are ready to evolve into Higher Consciousness. It IS a process which is activated by an act of supreme Grace... from our own Higher SELF.

The old saying " When the Student is ready The Master appears" is not just some trite saying, and eventually we do see the truth of it. Belief and blind faith will NEVER bring one to the Transcendent Knowledge of one's True SELF... But one's own sincere longing to know Truth Absolute is what starts doors to open which were once closed to us.


The MOMENT we begin SEEKING our own True Nature... Who/What we ARE, where we have come from, WHY we exist, then we are able to evolve even further into our understanding of SELF as the supreme and unchanging Truth.

Eventually we come to KNOW, Transcendently speaking... from beyond the intellect and the finite mind .... our True SELF... THAT Perfect Consciousness which has NEVER been born nor does it ever die. It simply is ... I AM. ALL that IS and IS Not. Existing OUTSIDE of Time/Space as well as WITHIN Time/Space.... AS Time/Space.

Death then is an experience of the mind alone. Eventually, our identity with our finite FALSE self falls away and we KNOW our ONE TRUE and ALL Pervasive SELF. This is what those great Realized BEings such as Jesus, Krishna, the Buddha, Jnaneshwar and rare others come to gift us. Not heaven and freedom from physical death, but True Freedom from our false egos, a lifting of the veil of ignorance, of seperation, imperfection, and limitation. We REALIZE in that moment of Grace that we are the dream of God, and that dream and dreamer are ONE. AND that there is nothing here to judge.

For those who hear the teachings of these rare and great BE~ings, while still veiled and still identifying with their false egos and finite minds, for them, at that point in time, HEAVEN is typically the goal... to be WITH "God". HOWEVER.... for those who are ready to hear these Transcendent teachings from BEYOND the veil, through an act of supreme Grace, for them the ultimate gift of Godhood itself is recognized. *Note. this is not really about religion but about a true spiritual awakening, whereas religion is still under the veil, and deals with suffering, imperfection, seperation and limitation, and NOT about finding one's own True SELF. Ironically religion has no idea as to the True Greatness of one such as Jesus and what such rare BE~ings have to offer us. In fact, to most it sounds quite blasphemous because.... they are hearing with unawakened ears.

It is not that we become Divine Consciousness... we already ARE THAT. The whole point of one such as Jesus was/is to make us JUST like Himself. Totally AWARE of their own Divine SELF. It is a matter of AWAKENING from this dream of limitation and wrong identification with our false ego, and REALIZING THAT which we have ALWAYS BEEN. ~ I AM ~ Just as that king temporarily forgot he was the king, so to we have forgotten our Infinte and Perfect SELF, which is the same in ALL. The one main difference between Jesus and most humans is... Jesus KNEW fully who He was, while they do not yet KNOW who they are.

So, physical death is not so important really. But death of the false ego? That is essential if we are ever going to be TOTALLY free of ALL suffering. We have died (physically) many MANY times. Our "individual" subtle body / soul simply manifests into a new physical form and our new experience will be driven by our past actions/karma. Acquiring a human form is a MOST auspicious accomplishment so even if our minds THINK we have "bad" karma.... to attain a human form is a very great blessing. It is essential to our ultimate freedom.
~ ~ ~
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

<< what happens if you were to get some kind of illness in your life which were to make you clinically lose your mind shall we say ie schizophrenia or mad cow disease or something which effects the brain so much that your just not the same person anymore. how would this effect your afterlife if there is one? i only ask this as i cant seem to find any answers that account for someone who loses their mind. i can except the possibilitys of mediums afterlife and continuied conciuosness but this is where all the theories break down for me as the person that was you is now no longer there.>>

OK, you can answer that question yourself. : ) What would happen if you experienced your arm being cut off within the context of a dream? Well... within the context of that dream you would most likely experience having no arm..... HOWEVER... the moment you WOKE UP you would see that ohhh yes... I actually DO have TWO arms and that was only a dream.

When we die physically we are made WHOLE again in the Subtle Realms of Consciousness. We get to experience our subtle / non physical body. All semblance of Dis-Ease or Dis-order is rectified. Also.... though our FORM may change, from one incarnation to another, who we actually ARE never changes. We are ALWAYS the supereme SELF and are never anything other than THAT.

Note*
I highly recommend the book TESTIMONY OF LIGHT By Helen Greaves (not to be confused with other titles with the word Light in them) This small book on the after life, written by mental telepathy ( yes it is possible : ) between two life long friends. The one who crossed over gives a wonderfully detailed account of her process... which I personally concur with since I had my own 'shared NDE' experience. Though this book does not deal with True Death.. of the false ego, still it handles the experience of physical death very well I feel. Explaining especially the importance of forgiveness ... since if we are too attached to another being.... at death we may well be swept right along with them to a ... less desirable existence. So, always chose to go HIGHER... not lower into states of fear and anger which are very hard to escape from.
Note: this small book was out of print but is now back IN print. I got a few from Amazon.com

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
More reading suggestions: FAR JOURNEY , and also THE ULTIMATE JOURNEY ... both by Robert Monroe and now back in print also. Again, not dealing with the Non-dual "death of the ego" but an excellent explanation of Out of Body Experiences, the Higher Realms of dualistic Consciousness and how we are able to move around in them... without actually "dying". Having had a number of my own OOB's I felt his writings really rang true.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now... if you're really wanting to jump into the Ultimate Death of the false ego , which is something else all together different .... then the best book I have EVER come across for such esoteric knowledge is PLAY OF CONSCIOUSNESS by Swami Muktananda. It has been my own experience that IF someone is NOT ready to know this information yet... they will run, not walk away from it as fast as possible <g>, on the other hand if one IS ready for such esoteric and Transcendent Knowledge... they will be drawn to it like a super magnet! It really is... karmic, and either response is fine. It's all about where we need to be at any given point in time.

Happy Seeking, Peace, Faithrada

Ohhh :P... yet another small but extremely helpful read might be:

KARMA AND REINCARNATION by Paramahansa Yogananda..... (of Autobiography of a Yogi acclaim), a truly great Spiritual Master who speaks with no nonsense clarity on a very esoteric topic.
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