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Good day gentleman.

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Good day gentleman.

Postby TheEvilUrge725 » 20 Oct 2009, 16:21

Hello everyone, lurker turned poster here. I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic". I myself am a Messianic jew and as such it is kind of hard to find a place where i fit in. As far as my religious beliefs go i am very skeptical of my religion. I've tried explaining this to many Atheists and anti-theists and for the most part i get character assassinations and get told that i hold an opinion that i do not genuinely have. It's frusturating because i have no real desire to convert people to my religion. I just try to explain why i am a christian who is skeptical of not only his religion but also other religions and even science. What do people like me do? We would be just fine if god wasn't real and we are just fine if god is real. God or not i still find the universe intriguing and i want to know how the mechanisms behind it work regardless of my faith. Why can't atheists/skeptics/debunkers understand this? For any atheists that may be here please forgive me if it sounds like i am making a generalization, i know that there are plenty of open minded atheists out there and i even know a few myself.
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Oct 2009, 18:33

Welcome and Shalom!
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby ProfWag » 20 Oct 2009, 20:53

TheEvilUrge725 wrote:Hello everyone, lurker turned poster here. I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic". I myself am a Messianic jew and as such it is kind of hard to find a place where i fit in. As far as my religious beliefs go i am very skeptical of my religion. I've tried explaining this to many Atheists and anti-theists and for the most part i get character assassinations and get told that i hold an opinion that i do not genuinely have. It's frusturating because i have no real desire to convert people to my religion. I just try to explain why i am a christian who is skeptical of not only his religion but also other religions and even science. What do people like me do? We would be just fine if god wasn't real and we are just fine if god is real. God or not i still find the universe intriguing and i want to know how the mechanisms behind it work regardless of my faith. Why can't atheists/skeptics/debunkers understand this? For any atheists that may be here please forgive me if it sounds like i am making a generalization, i know that there are plenty of open minded atheists out there and i even know a few myself.

Welcome Evil. I am an athiest myself, but perhaps the reason you get assassinated on your religious beliefs is that you may actually be agnostic? I am confused over what you were trying to say. Everyone has their own religion and searching out what is best for him or her is just fine in my book. I think everyone should question their religious beliefs. So, unless I'm not reading enough into what you said, I'm not sure why people question what your beliefs are as to me, it just sounds like you are still searching. That's not a bad thing and shouldn't be to even the most religious of people.
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby TheEvilUrge725 » 21 Oct 2009, 07:23

ProfWag wrote:
TheEvilUrge725 wrote:Hello everyone, lurker turned poster here. I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic". I myself am a Messianic jew and as such it is kind of hard to find a place where i fit in. As far as my religious beliefs go i am very skeptical of my religion. I've tried explaining this to many Atheists and anti-theists and for the most part i get character assassinations and get told that i hold an opinion that i do not genuinely have. It's frusturating because i have no real desire to convert people to my religion. I just try to explain why i am a christian who is skeptical of not only his religion but also other religions and even science. What do people like me do? We would be just fine if god wasn't real and we are just fine if god is real. God or not i still find the universe intriguing and i want to know how the mechanisms behind it work regardless of my faith. Why can't atheists/skeptics/debunkers understand this? For any atheists that may be here please forgive me if it sounds like i am making a generalization, i know that there are plenty of open minded atheists out there and i even know a few myself.

Welcome Evil. I am an athiest myself, but perhaps the reason you get assassinated on your religious beliefs is that you may actually be agnostic? I am confused over what you were trying to say. Everyone has their own religion and searching out what is best for him or her is just fine in my book. I think everyone should question their religious beliefs. So, unless I'm not reading enough into what you said, I'm not sure why people question what your beliefs are as to me, it just sounds like you are still searching. That's not a bad thing and shouldn't be to even the most religious of people.


Hmm you bring up some good points perhaps you are right. Or i didn't explain myself well enough, which always seems to be the case with my brand of crazy.

Well in a way i do consider myself an agnostic, the main reason i am a Messianic Jew is because of a really weird experience i had when i was about 16. Essentially it took a first hand experience for me to believe in God again and the fact that i had this experience while adressing a specific god (yhwh Jehovah) was what led to me to determine that the judeo-christian god was the one true god. But the thing is is that before this i was a pretty staunch atheist, not unlike richard dawkins or christopher hitchens, and as such i still retain parts of that mode of thinking. It's something that i just can not escape and as such i believe it renders me to be closer to an agnostic than a full blown christian or hardcore jew. Ultimately this is my stance. I believe that there is a being out there who has responded to me while adressing it as God, jesus, Yhwh, and Lord and in some cases even as Allah (which makes sense since allah is the arabic word for god). Exactly who or what this specific being is i can not be sure of 100% because i am limited in my ability to perceive and interpret the world around me be it natural or not. All i know is that from personal experience this being responds to me when i address it by such names. The reasons why i am experiencing this can be chalked up to a multitude of factors, it could be genuine misinterpratation of cognitive/neurological malfunctions or it could be genuine supernatural forces at work (i.e. it is actually god), I have no history of psychological problems outside of ADD and i am very familiar with the effects of psychadelic drugs. I have done DMT,LSD, Smoked TONS of Marijuana and ate Peyote. Non of these drugs replicated my experience. I've spoken with Neurologists and Psychologists about it and they had no answer other than " I do not know i would have to run a battery of expensive tests to rule them all out." At this point the logical answer to me is that i did indeed experience an act of genuine supernatural interaction. And it was incredible to have experienced that. Since then i came to understand that the bible was not essential to understanding the nature of god since god had naturally given us the ability to understand him. Is it possible that i am wrong about this? Well yes of course it is, and is that bad thing theologically speaking? No it isn't. If you sit down and read the story of sodom and gomorrah you will find something interesting. The story shows that god can be proven wrong and god can be questioned. God told abraham that the city had not one good soul in it yet abraham disagreed because he knew his friend Lot resided in Sodom. Abraham essentially said to god " YOU ARE WRONG" and god said " OK prove me wrong. Find TEN people in that city that are good" And abraham did prove god wrong. He proved that there was at least one righteous person in sodom. Now obviously this isn't ten people but still it showed that gods original stance of " not one person" being righteous was in fact an erroneous assumption.God was simultaneously right and wrong. Now keep in mind this is merely my interpretation of the story, thousands of people will say it was that "god hates fags and the city was full of fags except for lot" or that the story is just proof that god is a bitchwhistle, you get the idea. But this made me realize something. Perhaps i too can be a christian or jew who is allowed to question the existence of god. Perhaps i too can be simultaneously right and wrong like god was on his stance of Sodom. I've asked god about this many times and i always get what i can best describe as an instantaneous "thought" (something that is not congruent with my natural flow of thought) that tells me or that i believe tells me " You Understand" . Now whether or not that is actually god or not we could argue for hours, but i am pretty confident that it is not me being generally crazy? Is it possible? Well yeah of course it is.

I guess ultimately I feel that Faith in god is different from a certainty of god. It would seem at times that god is unsure of himself just as much as i am unsure of him.

I hope that helps you understand my stance better, if not then i think your assumption that perhaps i am still searching may be the ultimate factor here. Because i am still searching, and from what i have learned this is not a bad thing since god told us to build up the temple of our minds. And in order to build something we must be constantly looking for "materials" to build our temples with.

Anyways very good questions/analysis Prof, i will ponder on these more.
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby Scepcop » 27 Oct 2009, 03:27

Hi EvilUrge,
You sound like a true skeptic. A true skeptic questions all sides. Very few can do that, because people tend to need something to believe in to give them an identity and sense of purpose. Otherwise they are empty and insecure inside. Most are closed minded and only listen to what they already believe, and ignore what they don't. They seek to validate their beliefs too. That's why many want to convert you to their beliefs. Atheists are no different. They are not as rational or logical as they claim, unless they apply their skepticism to their own beliefs too.

It's very hard to find someone who is truly objective and skeptical of all sides and will base his/her views solely on evidence. Most people, even if open minded, are only open minded about certain things. For example, many open minded people out there, such as Michal Prescott, are suddenly very closed minded regarding 9/11 and will not examine evidence about it or watch films about it. They have an immediately denial and dismissal about it. It's probably mostly psychological. Few are really logical, objective and open about everything.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby Scepcop » 27 Oct 2009, 03:34

EvilUrge,
Wait do you mean you talk to God? How does he appear to you? How do you experience him exactly? Do you hear him with your ears or mind? What does he say? Can you elaborate?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby Scepcop » 27 Oct 2009, 13:23

TheEvilUrge725 wrote:Hello everyone, lurker turned poster here. I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic".


By the way, I'm glad you liked the debunking Christian arguments treatise. I used to be one of them and so I had a deep understanding of their side. During my slow deconversion I did a lot of research and so I made use of what I learned and wrote that treatise eventually, along with the debunking pseudoskeptic treatise of course.

You are insightful to see that it lacked "emotionally fueled logic". I didn't have to get emotional in that treatise, because I had so many technical points to make convincing valid arguments that I didn't need to. When logic and facts are you on your side, you don't need to get emotional or subjective, you only have to reiterate and emphasize your core points. If the other side wants to get emotional, then that's their problem and will only drag them down.

Plus I'm far more objective than the average person (which the pseudoskeptics here never give me credit for), and so it was easy for me to use straight rational logic and common sense.

But you are right in that the atheist articles against religion and Christianity tend to be emotionally charged logic. Richard Dawkins, with his name calling and ridicule, is a prime example of that.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby TheEvilUrge725 » 29 Oct 2009, 12:39

Hey Scepcop ( can i just call you Wu ? that is much easier to type out) Don't think i ignored your question about talking to god. Also Thank you for your kind words. I had a really long explanation and everything drawn out for you but it got eaten up by the forum or my computer so i will keep it short. I am pretty sure it is god, but i am not 100% sure because i do not have the ability to rule out a naturalistic explanation. At the same time the naturalistic explanation could be what makes the paranormal explanation possible yes? I do not know for sure other than that i can not explain it.
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Re: Good day gentleman.

Postby Scepcop » 02 Nov 2009, 23:31

Sure you may call me "Wu". Whatever floats your boat.

BTW, another reason why I am not that emotional toward the Christian fundamentalists is because I used to be one of them, so I can emphasize with what they think, feel and believe. I understand them very well and why they think and act the way they do. So I am far more tolerant of them than their other critics and debunkers. Here is my deconversion story, which even Christians have admitted is quite inspiring and moving.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Christian_Story.htm
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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