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Let's Discuss Thermite on 9/11

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Let's Discuss Thermite on 9/11

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 22:02

From what I can find, the thermite theory for the collapse of the WTC buildings was started by Steven Jones in the following paper. Do we all agree to this?
http://www.wtc7.net/articles/WhyIndeed09.pdf
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby WhiteTiger » 26 Oct 2009, 22:07

Since it's a technical matter, does it's origin really matter? Seems to me either the engineering math works or it doesn't, regardless who is on which side at what point.



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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 22:25

WhiteTiger wrote:Since it's a technical matter, does it's origin really matter? Seems to me either the engineering math works or it doesn't, regardless who is on which side at what point.



Tiger

Are we, or are we not, interested in finding facts associated with the collapse of the WTCs? It is being debated whether or not the WTCs collapsed using thermite. Since I am not an engineer, I won't dispute that thermite COULD possibly bring down a building of that size, but the question I think we should care about is whether or not thermite was used in the collapse of the WTCs on 9/11. If so, then the origin of that theory is most certainly important.
Edit added after my initial post: I believe that in due time through a discussion, then the technical aspects of thermite on the WTCs will become important.
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby Nostradamus » 26 Oct 2009, 22:39

The origins are important. It sets context for a discussion.
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby WhiteTiger » 26 Oct 2009, 22:52

Let me make clear right up front that I'm interested in examination of the available technical details. I'm neither for nor against either side for the most part, other than a general dissatisfaction with the childish explanations of the Official Story, and some very pointed disgust at and anger with many of the wild**s claims of the rabid conspiracy fringies.

And yes, I for one could care less who asserts what... imo the assertions either stand or not on their technical merit. For the purpose of reaching valid conclusions as to the mechanisms of collapse authorship and genesis is irrelevant at this point unless one wishes to use character assassination as a mechanism for judging technical merit.

Character, motivation and psychology can be and are argued endlessly, with no clear resolution. Engineering matters, on the other hand either compute out or not, and the field of competing theories is then narrowed with the elimination of each assertion shown to be technically flawed.

I personally see no purpose in bogging down yet another discussion with personality issues. Unless of course that is the point, to ensure that the sidetrack issues are inbuilt.



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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 22:54

As I've stated and asked before, I don't believe that anything but airplanes brought those buildings down and I'm still looking for evidence to the contrary. If you would prefer, we could discuss how many Bic lighters and flatulence it would take to bring down those buildings, but what point is discussing the technical aspects of that combination if that's not what actually brought them down in the first place?
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby WhiteTiger » 26 Oct 2009, 22:58

Alright nostradamus, if origins are important for context, and this thread is labeled "lets discuss thermite", why don't we discuss the origins and nature of thermite technology? Anything to contribute?



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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby WhiteTiger » 26 Oct 2009, 23:03

Well Prof, there's where we differ. I don't believe anything other than the towers came down. My interest is in examining proposed mechanisms for that collapse with the purpose of eliminating candidate proposals. Anything else is going to be simply more circular jaw jacking that serves no purpose other than stroking associated egos and/or confirming existing biases. Imo, of course LOL



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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 23:11

WhiteTiger wrote:
Character, motivation and psychology can be and are argued endlessly, with no clear resolution. Engineering matters, on the other hand either compute out or not, and the field of competing theories is then narrowed with the elimination of each assertion shown to be technically flawed.

I personally see no purpose in bogging down yet another discussion with personality issues. Unless of course that is the point, to ensure that the sidetrack issues are inbuilt.

Tiger

I don't necessarily disagree with you Tiger. However, from an engineering standpoint, you could determine how much dynamite it would take to bring it down, how much thermite, how hot a fire must be, how much HMX or RDX, etc. etc. etc., but that doesn't begin to determine if that's what actually brought down those buildings. Most of the people in this forum, I believe, are not engineering savvy and if you want to get into the technical details, perhaps you are in the wrong forum. The moderator of this forum claims there was a conspiracy and that thermite/thermate/superthermite brought down those buildings. Whether those have the capability to bring them down is only relevant if they could not bring them down, not that they could bring them down. I say thermite has the capability to bring down the buildings. I agree. They can. But DID they? To determine that, we must look at how that theory got started. IMHO
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 23:19

BTW, If it looks like I'm backtracking a bit, I probably am as I'm wanting to start at the beginning. Also, I just want to get this whole conspiracy theory forum blown up (pardon the pun...)
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby WhiteTiger » 26 Oct 2009, 23:29

Okie dokie. You started the thread, head it where you want it to go. I'll bow out and just watch. I had the impression the title of the thread was more literal.



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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby brett » 26 Oct 2009, 23:40

a most interesting paper , and it is certainly worth reading through AND looking at the videos , especially the ones of controlled demolitions - notice any similarities ??

as to if /if not thermite/thermate was used ?? - well from my small knowledge of fire investigation , the seeming fact that a LOT of the steel work has been removed ( eg evidence ) from what is a crime scene - does raise questions , how are we to determine the facts when so much evidence is now gone forever ?? - at any fire i was involved in NOTHING was moved or touched UNTILL a trained expert had looked it over , and i have spent hours at a fire digging through debris 3 feet thick in places looking for evidence of a glass container ( which was theorised to have been lobbed into a timber pallet yard ) as an incendiary device - now if a provincial fire brigade can do this ,so as to get a clear picture of what caused a fire , is it not odd that the scene of probably one of the biggest collapses in mankind's history , has been treated in such a cavalier manner and cleared with such haste ??

in a plane crash ( bear in mind we had two here ) ALL available evidence is taken to a secure location and analysed ( and here's a question , where the "black boxes from the air liners ever located ?? - after all if they survive crashes and fires , would they NOT have been found somewhere in the debris piles if the buildings had just come down owing to collapse by fire ?? - of course if they WHERE blown to bits by explosives ( one of the few things that could do for them ) - then ................. well go figure ) - so WHY was not all the steel and other debris treated in the same way ?? OK the argument will be thrown up that there was just too much , OK then at least "representative samples "

now i am no expert in explosives or even chemistry - so wont comment on the thermite issue further
- BUT again we have to ask the question - why all the molten steel in the debris ?? AND why the picture of that steel column cut at an angle of 45 degrees ?? - and i have watched programs such as "blasters" etc where they SHOW how shaped charges and cutter charges work - so how come similar things are shown in the pictures ?? - fires don't melt columns that way - that much i know , and in fact have never seen a "MELTED" column - despite them being in raging fires for several hours

the questions are there folks - but as to weather the answers will EVER come out ??? :?
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 23:44

WhiteTiger wrote:Okie dokie. You started the thread, head it where you want it to go. I'll bow out and just watch. I had the impression the title of the thread was more literal.



Tiger

Perhaps it should have been titled "Did Thermite bring down the WTC?" instead?
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 26 Oct 2009, 23:53

brett wrote:as to if /if not thermite/thermate was used ?? - well from my small knowledge of fire investigation , the seeming fact that a LOT of the steel work has been removed ( eg evidence ) from what is a crime scene - does raise questions , how are we to determine the facts when so much evidence is now gone forever ?? - at any fire i was involved in NOTHING was moved or touched UNTILL a trained expert had looked it over , and i have spent hours at a fire digging through debris 3 feet thick in places looking for evidence of a glass container ( which was theorised to have been lobbed into a timber pallet yard ) as an incendiary device - now if a provincial fire brigade can do this ,so as to get a clear picture of what caused a fire , is it not odd that the scene of probably one of the biggest collapses in mankind's history , has been treated in such a cavalier manner and cleared with such haste ?? :?

Brett, as for evidence at the crime scene, perhaps you would find this interesting (you may have to scroll down just a bit):

http://cryptome.info/wtc-fk/wtc-fk-full.htm
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Re: Let's Discuss Thermite

Postby ProfWag » 27 Oct 2009, 00:02

brett wrote:
in a plane crash ( bear in mind we had two here ) ALL available evidence is taken to a secure location and analysed ( and here's a question , where the "black boxes from the air liners ever located ?? - after all if they survive crashes and fires , would they NOT have been found somewhere in the debris piles if the buildings had just come down owing to collapse by fire ?? - of course if they WHERE blown to bits by explosives ( one of the few things that could do for them ) - then ................. well go figure ) -

Flight 93 data recorders were recovered. The two Flight 77 black boxes were found and removed, but the voice recorder was too badly damaged to be useful. No black boxes from the WTC, but no one really expected to find them...
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