Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.
Give this a read, guys & gals. Important we keep all variables open when looking at the collapses.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/21 ... l-version/
Wow, that's really bad this time, Prof, is that all you got? Beyond pseudoscepticism and into a cover-up the CIA disinformatziya unit would be proud of. Apart from the fact that you provided none of this poor non-information before, unlike your assertion.
There was no engine wreckage apart from a turbine that is too small for a 757 and has been identified as coming from a single unknown smaller engine -- if you were in USAF engineering circles, you may well be able to identify it as belonging to a cruise missile engine, or an F-16. It was a pretty lame duck 757 with only one engine and no wings coming in.
If the nose of the plane crumpled immediately, how did it also drill through around 5 solid walls and leave a little burning hole at the end. I think it was something like 4 solid feet of walls in thickness not counting the steel columns in the way which were not sheared.
Your supposed 'unbiased' article from 2001 means nothing, it's just a rehash of other articles which 'assume' the official account must be true, therefore make the facts fit. It is not a scientific or technical article either, it's extremely lightweight. An actual study by A K Dewdney demonstrated it does not work -- not even from a light aircraft at low speed, let alone a 757 suppsedly travelling at hundreds of miles per hour over cell towers, and this is further backed up by other telecoms engineers and mobile phone companies. Some records obtained by the FBI also indicate no successful calls were made. This is probably your weakest one yet.
Dick Cheney is on testimonial record as having demanded a stand-down even as he was getting reports of a plane homing in on the Pentagon where he was standing. Very interesting. I notice you also conveniently side-skirt all the assembled pieces of evidence as it suits you.
The deaths of a few uniforms and civvies means nothing to these monstrous characters -- they see everyone in the CIA and the military as expendable pawns. They are only interested in large scale elitist successes.
So a crumpling plane drilled through 4' of wall and numerous steel columns and yet the multi-tonne engines disappeared and made no marks on the building at all, and neither did the wings nor the tail plane -- no part of any of which was ever discovered. All that was discovered was a small ambiguous part of a small single jet engine. All highly plausible to present to the public if you're a CIA agent or spin doctor, I suppose.
I'm out of time today to keep rebutting the tired and superficial pseudosceptic arguments and defences which fly in the face of the detailed facts.
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 28 Sep 2012, 16:05, edited 2 times in total.
I'm curious Sydney - you're calling PW a pseudoskeptic here, but its clear that he's done research into these questions. I'm curious as to how you're defining pseudo-skeptic here. Surely it can 't be simply that he disagrees with you. Even if you think he's wrong- that also can't be part of the definition of pseudoskeptic (one can have done a skeptical investigation and still be wrong).
I don't see how he has done any research at all -- all he's done is repeat the half-remembered 'official story' and pasted in one link from 2001 to a superficial article with no references that goes nowhere. He has provided no info, no research and done no investigation. He pooh-poohs people who have come up with legitimate logical questions, facts and anomalies. That would be the definition of a pseudo-sceptic, which is repeated all over this site and on the opening page.
The actions of Dick Cheney and Ted Olson and the other psychopaths behind this bring to mind more than anything the classic quotation from Hitler's Mein Kampf:
Oh, another thing I just recalled -- FAA rules of boarding at the time of 9/11 disallowed sharp objects including boxcutters. That means the supposed 'hijackers' would not have been allowed to even get on the plane, their personal luggage would have been X-rayed and boxcutters would have been picked up, and they definitely could not have walked through the scanners with them on their person. Then there is the highly unlikely scenario that 4 or 5 slight middle easterners about 5'6" each who would blow away in a strong wind could bail up an entire flight of angry people and solid military-trained pilots with clearly no bombs or guns, just puny boxcutters -- which they would not have been able to get on to the plane with in the first place.
This is another major oversight that the conspirators had not anticipated -- not knowing the detailed FAA boarding rules as they dreamt up their Hollywood script for the masses.
So the 'official' story then was modified to say that 'accomplices' -- service personnel -- must have somehow left boxcutters under the seats from the previous flight. No investigation has ever been undertaken to find out just who those 'accomplices' might have been, because they would have been guilty of being accessories before the fact of a heinous crime.
That's why the FAA don't take the idea of 'air marshals' seriously and skimp on air marshals on flights in reality to save money -- because they know that there is not really a legitimate plane hijacking terrorist threat worth talking about -- except the more you make the Middle East angry with arbitrary drone attacks on civilians, etc, the more the likelihood of eventual retaliation becomes. Dick Cheney and co-conspirators have created the perfect environment of permanent terror -- just like the script in 1984 calls for. You are now officially in the Big Brother society.
What's amazing is how the American 'sheeple' have been content to just listen to all this and accept it -- oh, except 50% of Americans on a poll think it was an inside job -- the remaining 50% are represented here by the pseudosceptics.
Maybe there really should be a 'new REAL 9/11 investigation!'
WTF??? You are actually quoting Mein Kampf?????? And calling it a classic? I have been enjoying the conversations we've been having but if you're some anti-semetic Hitler supporter I'm afraid I'm going to have to choose to no longer converse with you.
Yesterday a former colleague introduced me to a nice term that covers much of what we see in the world today where is you get to a powerful enough position you can start converting all the resources under your control to your own benefit. So much easier nowadays that CEOs have been empowered with immense flexibility and autonomy to add value.
The term is “control fraud” and there is now a growing literature.
Yes, it's a very often used quote from Mein Kampf for illustrative purposes, that perfectly sums up what is going on in govt today. Or the 'govt inside the govt'. That pretty well makes the US govt as fascist as Hitler's.
My background is completely anti-fascist, that is why the parallel with the US govt today is so chilling. And by the way, the US was happily going along with many of Germany's contemptible eugenics ideas for a long time there in the first half of the twentieth century, with forced sterilisations and ethnic cleansing, etc, until it all got out of hand with WWII, and your best academics had to put their eugenics ideas on the backburner for a while. With people like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan and the Randists they're just bubbling under the surface however.
What's wrong with you? You clearly have zero academic background if you don't know how quoting works, and particularly if you're not familiar with that particular quotation. Or is this just another disinformatziya ploy from you CIA operative types?
I'll quote Marx or Guevera or Assange or Machiavelli or anyone I want to if it's apposite, to make the point. I didn't say I endorsed the guy or the work, it was something he wrote. I had no idea you were into censorship of ideas. I'm getting the growing idea there's something very wrong with some of you guys, you aren't participating in the idea of an intellectual conversation at all.
Coming from someone who does not live in America, and for all I know has never even been to America, I will take your post simply an anti-American rant and will give it absolutely no consideration, much less respect.
"The security philosophy at the time generally held that "other than for guns, large knives, explosives and incendiaries, determining what was prohibited and what was allowable was up to the common sense of the carriers and their screening contractors," the commission's staff testified.To help airport screeners in the pre-9/11 security climate, airlines had developed a guide that classified box-cutters as restricted. "on the other hand, pocket utility knives -- less than a 4-inch blade -- were allowed. The [guide] provided no further guidance on how to distinguish between 'box cutters' and 'pocket utility knives.'"In Portland, Oregon, a Leatherman spokeswoman Monica Hosler said Tuesday that none of the company's utility knives has featured blades longer than 4 inches.The FAA's practice of allowing the airlines to use common sense "created an environment where both parties would deny responsibility for making hard and most likely unpopular decisions," the staff testified"
http://articles.cnn.com/2004-01-27/us/9 ... s?_s=PM:US
I do not disagree with this statement.
The hilarious thing is that the US is the closest thing today to a fascist state in the OECD, and you don't realise it. Fascism as a political system is the assumption that a combination of the church, big business, the military and an elite political ruling class know what's best for everyone and will decide what's best for everyone. No democracy, or perhaps just the pretence of one. The Italians used the sign of a bunch of 'faggots' or faggotini tied together with an axe in the centre as the symbol of this grouping of church, business and the state, which is where 'fascist' comes from -- Latin 'fascia' for a bundle of sticks.
You think the US isn't moving that way now? Especially under the last two Republican terms.
yeah, great, so 19 or 20 or 21, or whatever the final count was supposed to be, 'hijackers' just thought they would chance getting on the same flights all carrying boxcutters in their pockets looking a little bit suspicious with Arabic names and passports and they were just chancing that the 'discretionary rule' of the day would hopefully be applied in their direction? See what happens when you shine the light of common sense and reason on this malarkey?
Kind of like how these kids just 'knew' that there was going to be a NORAD stand-down that day and they would be able to fly for hours and hours without getting intercepted, wandering west then east over radar dead zones, turning off radar transponders they had no knowledge or training on, not a worry in the world, unlike any other day when they would have been shot down in 10 minutes. Very convenient. They even knew Dick Cheney would give them a free pass while they zoomed in on the Pentagon. It's amazing they pulled it off really, isn't it? The gods were really smiling on them that day.
What would have happened if a whole cluster of them hadn't been allowed to fly for attempting to bring sharp knives on board? What if the USAF hadn't been on stand-down that day? Mission might not have been accomplished?
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 28 Sep 2012, 21:30, edited 2 times in total.
So it looks like the screeners called their supervisors at least 19 times over on 4 different flights, and each time the supervisor gave these suspicious, nervous, swarthy looking guys with funny names the nod, 5 times per flight. Wow. Different airports and different airlines, and they all got through so they could carry out their dastardly plan -- all the different airlines and supervisors all decided to give them the nod that day. Funny we've never heard from them in the 'investigation'. You think they might have something to say or be feeling a little guilty -- except it seems none of the flights existed to begin with.
By the way, your account supplied above is the usual retrospective BS commission cover-up. Amazing how they've exercised their intelligence and how many millions of wonderful words they've managed to come up with to cover up the crime of the century. If only those intelligences could be put to the use of good instead of evil.
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 28 Sep 2012, 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
Well written -- and the amazing hidden hand of Donny Rumsfeld involved in June 2001:
Before reviewing the military air defense response on 9/11, it is important to remember objectively what the 'official story' asks the public to believe. According to their narrative, on the morning of September 11, four enormous, fuel-laden, lumbering jumbo jets were hijacked by 19 Arab men with box-cutters and zero in-air flight experience. These slow, unmaneuverable planes were then flown for 1 hour and 45 minutes through the most restricted airspace in the world without eliciting a single military intercept. The most sophisticated military in the world, able to strike dime-sized targets from hundreds of miles away with laser-guided missiles, precision radar equipment, and state of the art aircraft capable of flying well over 1,300 mph, could not locate, engage, nor intercept four wandering jumbo jets. A military that has a budget larger than the combined military assets of every other country in the world could not scramble, intercept and engage any of the radically wayward planes. Even Flight 77, which was allowed to fly unimpeded and crash into the Pentagon one full hour after two jets had been flown into the Twin Towers in NYC, failed to elicit the response and intercept from any military jets. Nor, indeed, did flight 93. A plane that crashed in a Pennsylvania field 1 hour and 45 minutes after the first plane was confirmed hijacked.
This official narrative leaves the public with one of two conclusions. Either the U.S. military is a wholly inept force incapable of defending the country from even the most rudimentarily hostile elements, rendering it the greatest illusion and farce the world has ever seen. Or on the morning of September 11, forces within its own ranks purposely blocked, hamstrung, and prevented the military apparatus from carrying out its most basic defensive responsibilities. In light of what we know the military can and has done in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., in light of the plan they surely have in place to defend the skies from a potential massive enemy air-attack with striking power infinitely more powerful than that of four unarmed civilian jumbo jets, the first hypothesis is out. Which leaves behind the only logical scenario. That rogue elements from within the military and government leadership itself either stood down the military apparatus to let the events of September 11 occur on purpose. Or the same rogue elements planned, facilitated, and helped carry out the attacks themselves. Either one would be high treason and mass murder. And there is overwhelming evidence to back up both.
Defenders of the 'official story' blame confusion and chaos as reason for the lack of proper military response on the morning of 9/11. They spin stories of crowded radar screens, FAA confusion and lack of communication, NORAD mix-ups and lack of appropriate response protocol, uncertainty in regards to rules of engagement and chain of command, phantom flights, war games, dispersed military and Pentagon commanders, etc. etc. All of which is nonsense. FAA flight controllers are highly trained and capable professionals, accustomed to and comfortable with incredibly crowded radar screens. Confusion in times of war and crisis is expected and planned for. Strict rules of engagement and combat protocol are written, designed, and followed with unambiguous clarity specifically because of the inevitable chaos that ensues at the onset of an attack. Contrary to the 'official story', confusion and chaos did not create the inept military response. Virtually every step of the standard military protocol in response to cases of hijack and/or attack were ignored and violated on the morning of September 11. This comprehensive violation of standard operating procedures is what created the inept military response. Not chaos.
For an hour-long interview with Robin Hordon, an FAA air-traffic controller and aviation pilot from 'Boston Center' trying to blow the whistle and detail what actually happened regarding the 9/11 crimes and cover-up, click here.
Every commercial and civilian plane that takes to the air in the U.S. has to fill and file a specific flight plan. Along this flight plan, there are required 'fix points' that the plane has to hit along the way in order to keep the skies safe and clear. When a plane misses one of these 'fixes', air traffic controllers are alerted, and they attempt to make contact with the pilot. If the pilot fails to respond appropriately, the military is contacted, and a fighter jet is usually scrambled to investigate. The military and NORAD are directly linked into the sophisticated radar and air traffic control systems of the FAA. And even a private pilot in a small off-course plane 'will likely find two F-18s on their tail within 10 or so minutes' of unapproved movement.
Popular Mechanics and other defenders of the 'official story' have claimed that Payne Stewart's wayward Cessna is the only plane in the last decade to have elicited a military intercept in the U.S. However, not only does this directly contradict numerous other media and government reports citing hundreds of other such intercept incidents, NORAD'S own spokesman, Marine Corps Major Mike Snyder told the Boston Globe on September 15, 2001 that 'its fighters routinely intercept aircraft.' Moreover, common sense would dictate that the most powerful nation in the history of the world, with the greatest military capacity and sophistication in the history of the world, would have ready squadrons of military jets prepared and armed to take to the air within minutes to defend the skies from attacks of any sort. And from any direction.
Furthermore, on the morning of September 11, the FAA, NORAD, and the military were not dealing with simple wayward Cessnas carrying a charismatic golf pro. They were dealing with four separate, simultaneous, confirmed hijackings of enormous civilian airliners - all of which had illegally turned off their transponders, cut off all communication with air traffic controllers, and begun meandering suspiciously over the most heavily populated civilian corridor in the country.
Indeed, the FAA had confirmed by 8:14 a.m. that the first plane had been hijacked. Immediate military action should have been initiated. But the official history of what transpires after that is a bizarre and varied matrix of conflicting reports, narratives, explanations, finger-pointings, and excuses. Standard operating procedures in effect on that morning would have dictated that air traffic controllers immediately contact superiors both within the FAA and the military to report the hijacking incident. No logical reason exists to doubt that these procedures were followed. However, it is impossible to confirm the order of events as all involved controllers with direct knowledge of the timeline of events have since been depositioned and silenced with an unexplained, illogical official gag order. Source here, and here.
Even more alarming, on May 7 2004, the New York Times reported, "At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said today...The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, but it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. quality-assurance manager, who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department."
What is it that controllers knew and/or described and/or suspected about 9/11 that government officials do not want leaked to the public? Again, former Boston Center air traffic controller Robin Hordon, in an interview on the Randi Rhodes show in December of 2006, provides an answer. Hordon, a veteran controller with many friends and colleagues on duty that morning, said, "On September 11th I'm one of the few people who really within quite a few hours of the whole event taking place just simply knew that it was an inside job…normal protocol is to get fighter jet aircraft up (to) assist." Hordon continued that "from personal experience he knew the system was always ready to immediately scramble intercepting fighters and that any reversal of that procedure would have been unprecedented and abnormal…'I know people who work there who confirmed to me that the FAA was not asleep and the controllers could do the job, they followed their own protocols.'…Hordon said that the only way the airliners could have avoided being intercepted was if a massive electrical and communications failure had occurred which it didn't on that day, adding that there was 'no way' the hijacked airliners could have reached their targets otherwise."
What, or who, caused the deviation from standard operating procedure? Without the destroyed tapes or the controllers themselves available for evidence and/or subpoenaed testimony, this 8:14 a.m. FAA confirmed hijacking time is difficult to corroborate. Other reliable accounts push the time of military contact regarding the hijacking back about ten minutes, placing FAA's call to NORAD at around 8:25 a.m. (still 21 minutes before the first impact into the North Tower). Even NORAD official Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins of the Air National Guard confirmed that the military had received hijacking information by 8:30 a.m. (ABC Nightly News Report, 9/11/02). The 9/11 Commission Report, however, for some reason puts the time of military contact at 8:37:52 - an unsupported, unsubstantiated, unexplained time that stands a full 23 minutes longer than standard operating procedure would have dictated. And finally, at 8:46 a.m., as Flight 11 was slamming into Tower 1, F-15 fighter jets were scrambled from Otis Air Force Base. Thirty-two excruciating minutes after all existing standard operating procedures explicitly instructed regarding the scrambling of military jets on the morning of September 11.
This wild deviation from standard protocol has been glossed over by 'official reports' as a simple case of confusion, chaos, faulty communication, ineffective response training, etc. But thirty-two minutes of delay is not chaos and confusion. It is a systematic failure at so many levels of so many different inter-linked individuals and departments to perform their most basic responsibilities that it defies the laws of probability to suggest they all failed at the same time on the same day in the exact same coordinated manner. At the very least, their behavior was gross, criminal incompetence that should have led to the dismissal and trial of people up and down the chain of command in the FAA and NORAD. Their 'chaos and confusion' resulted in the deaths of 3,000 people, yet not one of them was fired or tried. Why?
Would they have told an uncomfortably variant version of the 'official story' when pressed to defend themselves in court? Would they have given specifics wholly incongruent to the government's desired narrative? Would it have come to the public's attention that in June of 2001, for an as yet unexplained reason, Donald Rumsfeld rewrote a 50 year old policy regarding airplane emergencies, suddenly dictating that from that point on, any response to a hijacked aircraft would have to be cleared through his office first (see 9/11 Commission Report). Setting up a confusing, muddled, and convoluted chain of command that, no surprise, was quickly cited after the attacks as reason for the lack of decisive and appropriate military response to a supposed 'unforeseen' chain of events?
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