Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.
"So you're working at the rocket place developing, working for the space program. You eventually leave the space program. At that point, did you know that the moon landings were going to be faked. 'Cause you said in 1959 the USA realized they couldn't put a man on the moon, so they started faking stuff. Why didn't you spill the beans right then?"
"Well, I don't know. What motivated me to spill the beans was a young man from the Vietnam wars by the name of John Grant. He said that he was sent to Vietnam to kill people with no good reason and he also got a heroin habit, and he says, "Bill," he says, "what I want you to do is blow the whistle on this rotten, corrupt government." He says, "Why don't you say something outrageous, like, we never went to the moon?" So I attribute my interest in this project to John Grant."
A suggestion for something outrageous for Bill Kaysing to say, for payback to the government for being rotten and corrupt.
Sounds like a legitimate theory.
I agree, FreeSlave. Though I have read and researched the alternative views on the Apollo Hoax scenario, I recently purchased Bill Kaysing's - "We never went to the Moon." Yes, I am very familiar with much of Kaysing's thesis, though; especially the quote attributed to him.
The first paragraph in the NY Times "Opinion" piece by Thomas L. Friedman (03/19/04):
"There are a lot of people who seem intent on restarting the Cold War — in both Moscow and Washington. I am not one of them. But if we’re going to have a new Cold War, then I have one condition: I want a new moonshot."
Now, Jarrah, this is how we go back to the moon. Yes, let's do a "new moonshot," please, please, please.
And just how was the book, Misha? Stroke of genius or, as the reviews on Amazon state:
"This, simply speaking, is the most utterly ridiculous book ever written. I mourn the loss of the time I spent reading this.... thing."
"The gist of Kaysing's pamphlet (as near I can make out - the writing style is not exactly fluid)..."
"The book is long on speculative questions, and short on genuine evidence. "
And one of the better reviews stated: "That being said, let me say that this is less science and more science fiction. It should be noted that Kaysing was a WRITER, not a scientist."
that all sounds wacky to me. what's the source of this quote? link?
NASA weren't asked to put a man on the moon until about 62-63, with the JFK announcements. Nor was the US heavily engaged with troops in Vietnam back in 59. Certainly early radiation research in the mid-50s by van Allen suggested there were high levels of radiation in the magnetosphere, but then there is the risk in space as well, so there would have been NASA water cooler talk in the early 60s about the real challenges of a manned mission leaving the earth to go in any direction. I doubt they could have started 'faking stuff' in 59 or from 59 if no manned moon mission had been announced til 62 or so. JFK had worried about the space race publicly in Congress for some time before that, and before being Pres, but a manned moon mission was not seen as the obvious solution to fears of space becoming militarised with satellite weapons or ICBMs from superior Russian rocketry.
Some say that the prosecution of the Vietnam War through the late 60s and early 70s was the main reason the moon missions kept getting sold to the public, to add a brightener to the belief their country was engaged in peaceful or benevolent activities. The moon missions stopped at almost exactly the same time as the Vietnam withdrawal, interestingly. The supposed plaque taken to the moon talks about peaceful exploration, etc etc, coming from a country which had gotten involved in the Korean War, then the Vietnam War (domino theory), had military bases around the world, was interfering in South American politics and engaging in coups and assassinations of leaders where expedient, assassinated its own US president, etc etc. Why therefore would a wise alien species believe anything written on a plaque?
But I can't see what would have needed to have been faked in 1959, apart from faking putting a man in orbit, etc etc, to keep up with the Soviets at that point in time.
Check out some of the comments in the comment section of this video.
Moon Got In The Way Of NASA's Image of Earth From Million Miles Away
Are u really that simple? Anyone with a brain can see this is fake. Where is the movement of the clouds?
So clouds just stay frozen in place during hours of time lapse? Lol. Fake. NASA FAIL!
Yes this animation was "created" from several components. NASA can't afford a digital camera that takes actual pictures......AND people believe that this stuff is real.
It looks like a low-budget special effect because that is exactly what it IS.
weird how the cloud patterns don't change on the time lapse. FAKE!
No stars and the clouds don't move over the several hours these pics were taken.We are being deceived on a grand scale.
What does everybody think of this?
I was wrong on this one. It was pointed out to me by a NASA shill of all people.
This is an important article from post #1 and the link to it just went dead.
I'm going to post the whole thing.
Did NASA steal $30 Billion to Fake
The Apollo Moon Landings?
Home Paper Moon Page
ARTICLE IN MEDIA BYPASS MAGAZINE, SEPT. 1997
THE VAN ALLEN ENIGMA
By Phylis and James Collier
In the early 1950's, a 35-year-old State University of Iowa physics professor and some of his students were cruising the cold waters ofnorthern Canada and the Atlantic Ocean, sending a series ofrocket-carrying balloons- which they dubbed "rockoons" - 12 to 15 miles into space.
They were trying to measure the nature of low-energy cosmic raysswirling around the earth. The experiments continued for five more years. Then, in 1958,Professor James Van Allen discovered his monster. Suddenly, his instrumentation warned of a giant beast of a thing, spewing enough deadly radiation counts to kill any human who ventured into its domain unprotected.
Van Allen and his students weren't sure of the size, shape and texture of the monster, they just knew they had encountered an incredible phenomenon.
Then, in l958, as part of the International Geophysical Year (a year in which men like James A. Van Allen were praised for exploring the realms of time and space) the young professor asked the U.S. military to send his experiments deeper into space, this time using a Geiger Counter to measure the intensity of the radiation. He further requested the most sophisticated rockets that would penetrate l00,000 miles into space.
That's when the monster grew all encompassing. It appeared to surround the entire earth and extend out some 65,000 miles, maybe even 100,000 miles. The Geiger Counter confirmed that the region above the earth, and in the path of the rocket, was cooking with deadly radiation. That radiation was born from solar flares that would race through the universe and become trapped by the earth's magnetic field. A deadly mixture of protons and electrons.
It was then that Van Allen realized the Aurora Borealis, the northern lights, was actually a visual manifestation of that tremendous energy from the sun. You could actually see the radiation swirling in a magnificent and deadly dance. His eventual finding of two such lethal radiation belts, put his name in the history books as the man who discovered the Van Allen Radiation Belts. There was an inner belt and an outer belt. The inner belt went from 40 degrees north and south of the Equator and was basically a doughnut surrounding the earth. Scientific experiments conducted by Van Allen and the military proved that belt was so deadly that no human could survive in its orbit. The outer belt was equally as destructive, and separated from the inner belt by an area of lesser radiation.
Van Allen's conclusion was delivered in a speech to the Academy of Science in 1959. He warned future space travelers they would have to race through these two zones on their way to outer planets.
"All manned space flight attempts must steer clear of these two belts of radiation until adequate means of safeguarding the astronauts has been developed" he said. Moreover, Van Allen advised they would have to be shielded with some extra layers of protection beyond that of the spacecraft itself. These findings were also published in Scientific American Magazine, March, 1959.
Two years later, Van Allen updated his report in Space World Magazine, December, 1961. In brief, he reported that everything he had found in 1959 was still valid. It was also in that year that President John F. Kennedy told an assembled group of students and dignitaries at Rice University in Houston, that it was America's destiny to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. With that statement, the space race become a political game, worth 30 billion in taxpayer dollars to the winners. National Aeronautic and Space Administration (NASA), which is part of the Department of Defense and the CIA, became the caretaker of Kennedy's dream.
It was their job to build a spacecraft that would meet Van Allen's scientific requirements of safety through the radiation belts. Van Allen stated that the ship's skin, made of aluminum, would not be enough protection for the astronauts. Extra shielding of lead or another substance that would absorb the radiation would be needed. That, of course, posed the problem of weight. More weight created a booster problem. In other words, they would need a bigger rocket to carry a ship that was properly lined against radiation penetration. One of the most interesting of Van Allen's findings was that once protons and electrons hit the aluminum skin of the spacecraft, they would turn into x-rays. The kind the average dentist protects patients against with two inch lead vests. Those rays would naturally penetrate the astronaut's bodies and create anything from nausea and vomiting to eventual death, depending on the length of the exposure.
All of this scientific data presented a big problem for NASA. How could they build a spacecraft that would meet radiation standards and yet get off the ground?
The National Committee on Radiation Protection (NCRP) and the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP) had established low "permissible doses" of radiation at levels that were consistent with living on earth. However, where the critical dosage on earth might be 5 rems of radiation in a year, the astronauts would receive that amount within minutes passing through the lower zone of the radiation belt.
In order to penetrate Van Allen's belt, in l965 NASA requested the two regulatory groups modify the existing standards for space flight. It was simply a matter of "risk over gain" and NASA convinced them to change the standards and allow them to take the risk. Whether or not future astronauts would be advised of these dramatically lowered standards and substantial risk is unknown at this time.
The next problem NASA faced was the shielding of the spacecraft. It was solved in a report NASA issued in Aerospace Medicine Magazine in 1965 and 1969. The report was written prior to the first Apollo mission to the moon.
NASA announced that a simple aluminum skin on the command module was enough to protect astronauts from lethal doses of radiation. This conclusion was based on studies NASA had conducted. Now NASA had ingeniously solved their two basic problems, protection and weight. They had eliminated the danger of radiation penetration, along with the problem of radiation shielding and spacecraft weight. We telephoned North American Rockwell, the builder of the Command Module which carried the astronauts to the moon and back. They verified that the craft was not protected by any additional shielding.
It was at this point in our research that we realized the Van Allen Report had been seriously compromised by NASA. Professor Van Allen had become an icon in the scientific community for warning of radiation dangers. One of his most important tenets was that even if you raced quickly through the 65,000 mile belt, which starts 400 miles above the earth's surface (thus allowing for inner space travel) you would still need considerable additional shielding. Were his findings now bogus? We had to speak to Van Allen.
Professor James A. Van Allen now 83, is Professor Emeritus in Geophysics at the University of Iowa. Our first question was why he did not speak up after NASA's claims and defend his original findings. Astonishingly, he told us that his seminal Scientific American article
in 1959 was merely "popular science."
"Are you refuting your findings?" we asked.
"Absolutely not," he answered, "I stand by them." In the next breath, Van Allen again acquiesced to NASA's point of view. He became positively mercurial in his answers. Basically he defended NASA's position that any material, even aluminum without shielding, was adequate to protect the astronauts from the radiation he once called deadly. When we asked him the point of his original warning about rushing through the Belt, he said, "It must have been a sloppy statement." So there we were, down the rabbit hole, chasing Van Allen through halls of mirrors. Was he taking the line of least resistance to government pressure? Was he trashing his own report in order not to be labeled a whistle blower? Could this renowned scientist actually be capable of a "sloppy statement" and blatant hyperbole published in a scientific journal?
If you don't believe we went to the moon, then you will say that NASA created the perfect cover story. It allowed them to continue receiving funding for a spacecraft they could not build, to enter a region of space they could not penetrate. If you believe we went to the moon, then you have to disregard Van Allen's years of research and published findings. You would also have to believe that aluminum, and not lead, is adequate protection against radiation in the very heart of the Belt. . .exactly the spot where Apollo rocket ships entered from Cape Canaveral in Florida.
I got banned from the Clavius forum years ago. I snuck back in yesterday and did some posting. They knew it was me right away but I was able to do some serious posting before I got banned again and they didn't delete the stuff I posted. Here it is. I used the username "Scott".
Read that last one until post #26. Jay Windley* destroyed his credibility again. Another pro-Apollo poster agreed with him in post #37. They also maintained that the Chinese spacewalk was real and tried to obfuscate those clear anomalies (see the fourth link). Those people are a joke.
Here's something I just came across. The guy who started this thread is very articulate.
I'm posting his first post in case it goes off-line.
Letters to the Editor
There can be many levels to an issue, and, unless you look at all of them, you cannot necessarily be said completely to understand it.
With the upcoming anniversary of the purported landing on the moon, it is understandable that there would be significant attention to that story, with replays of news broadcasts from that time and descriptions of improvements in space travel since then. But, in the way that handling of an event can be characteristic of its time, or perhaps should be approached so, discussion of the supposed landing of Apollo 11 today also includes reference to the wide-spread perception that it never took place.
Indeed, what is termed "The Moon Hoax" is a major topic on the internet, the "conspiracy theory" that the "moon landing" actually was staged. References to explanations by "conspiracy theorists" include items like the danger of traveling through the Van Allen radiation belts; the lack of stars in the sky in the photographs; the oddly intersecting or diverging shadows on the moon, suggesting mutliple light sources; and the "flapping" of the American flag set up there. Unfortunately, some "theorists" go too far afield, providing details, such as that the moon landing was filmed at Area 51, and those can and often are used to undermine the legitimacy of the inquiry.
And, to be sure, the standard points can be countered, if not definitively then at least somewhat convincingly. Actually, the amount of radiation in the Van Allen belts is not so strong it can't be countered by adequate shielding. Cameras that were calibrated to expose only long enough to collect significant light sources could fail to obtain simultaneous images of dim stars in the background. The lunar surface was evidently irregular enough that fraction of an inch long shadows in a picture could appear to intersect when they were really parallel. And even when they erected it, the astronauts described the flag as having a cross bar so the pennant could stand out from the pole and, if jostled for any reason, even in a vacuum, a suspended cloth can flap if disturbed.
Those whose job it is to "debunk" the "conspiracy theorists" would declare from this case closed, but, in fact, it opens the issue.
Because it is a truism that, if you can control the essence of an argument, the meaning of terms, the items to be mentioned, the way things are to be approached, you can make anything say anything. And, in fact, "debunkers" have relied very heavily on this technique to deceive the public.
In articles strewn with references to "conspiracy theorists' as "loonies" or "idiots" or "crackpots", the "debunkers" have repeatedly trotted out the standard points, sprinkling in details such as the claim about being filmed at Area 51, to "convince" the naive and dull that the "conspiracy theory" about the untruthfulness of the moon landing doesn't hold water. All predictably the same. In the article "Could the moon landings have been faked? Some still think so", by Brandon Griggs, journalistic ethic is tossed by referring to Bart Sibrel, a filmmaker who has challenged the claims about landing on the moon, as "crazy" and describing those who doubt the landing as a "cult". Phil Plait, an astronomer and contributor to Discover magazine's web site terms refusing to believe that man landed on the moon "lunacy".
The fact is, such loaded language is an historic proof of an insincere agenda, promoting an illegitimate claim. A decent individual could opine the fact that craven connivers in government have made so many so distrustful that they don't place stock in anything government says. Those who are liars and criminals simply call those who refuse to be pushed around "crackpots"!
But these always approach the issue from the one direction, the standard points. Which suggests that that is the only way a presentation "debunking" the "conspiracy theory" can be made. As if approaching from any other angle would expose the inherent weaknesses of the claim the moon was reached. It can be helpful, then, to examine the claim of a moon landing from other approaches, as well. The verifiable is the same viewed from any angle, not just from one specific direction.
And there is a particularly significant direction to view the issue of the "moon landing".
Rather than deal with the standard arguments provided against the possibility of the "moon landing" being real, the question can be asked just how uncontestable is the "evidence" that a landing did take place?
The fact is, there is absolutely no "evidence" of a moon landing that is incontrovertible or unquestionable!
The convincingness of any "evidence" of a moon landing depends solely on the effective gullibility of the person listening! And the craven acceptance of many in the American public of the unproved claim of a "moon landing" display methods often used to swindle the dull and demonstrate the lackluster dim-wittedness of so many in the America population that has permitted equally pernicious frauds to be perpetrated!
Someone, for example, steps up to a podium and says, "We landed on the moon". If that person has enough media provided imprimatur and "official" backing, there are those in the public who will buy unquestioning, at face value, absolutely everything that person says! But Clinton stood up and said he didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky. George W. Bush said Iraq had massive banned weapon systems. George H.W. Bush said Iraqi soldiers pulled Kuwaiti infants from incubators and dropped them on the floor to die. Jimmy Carter said he was a nuclear engineer. Ronald Reagan said "trickle down" economics would benefit the "rank and file". If someone said they had talked to space aliens, "debunkers' would declare that just saying so doesn't make it true, but they are the first to insist that, just because someone in govenment said we reached the moon, you have no choice but to believe it! Just like they insist that al Qaeda and not the White House was behind the events of September 11, just because a White House authorized "translation" of an Osama bin Laden tape supposedly took credit for the attacks! The fact that nothing anyone is govenrment says can be trusted may inform the judgments of some regarding future events, but tragically few seem to have had the insight to apply this newfound realization retroactively, passing judgment on whether they were lied to in the past or not, as well!
If they feel the need to provide something purportedly more "substantial" than just claims, "debunkers" might point to the "moon rocks". They will say, "How could we have moon rocks if we didn't go to the moon?" Unfortunately, many who seek to promote the inquiry into the government's moon hoax are not bright enough not to be drawn in. Many say the moon rocks came from lunar probes that returned from the moon, at which point, the "debunkers" will say, "If we can send a probe and get it back, why can't we do it with humans?" In fact, the essence of that "argument" strays far from that track. Because, consider, did you ever see a "moon rock"? Did you ever hold a "moon rock" in your hands? If someone said they had a live Sasquatch but they refused to allow you to see it, how many wouldn't call that person a fake? Yet government has never allowed anyone to handle a "moon rock", but the people readily accept that as "proof" of a moon landing? True, the "debunkers" will assert, government did allow "moon rocks" to be seen, under glass and separated from the public, but if someone provided brown hairs under glass and said they were Sasquatch fur, they would be denounced in a second! And, let's be frank, even if they did allow an examination of a "moon rock", how many people know enough about geology to know they are from earth or not? And, besides, laboratories across the world have facilities for subjecting rocks to any number of different environments, meaning, they could manufacture a "moon rock" at will! Only the willingness to unquestioningly buy whatever you are told would lead someone to believe claims about "moon rocks"!
The "debunkers" bring up the films of astronauts supposedly on the moon. All fuzzy, grainy and over-exposed. Films of much higher quality are provided as proof of encounters with UFO's and Bigfoot, and routinely dismissed by "debunkers" as of "unacceptable quality to be credible". The fact that NASA seems to have managed to lose thousands of films from the moon landings doesn't add to their credibility!
And, now, "debunkers" are crowing that the Lunar Reconaissance Orbiter has "seen" the sites where the astronauts "landed". And they provide photographs to "prove" it. As if someone couldn't fabricate a moon surface and place tiny objects on it! To understand this situation, go to the web page http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/m ... sites.html. The "photographs" from the orbiter are provided. To "prove" their "authenticity", they even single out a picture from Apollo 14 supposedly showing the astronauts' "tracks" in the lunar dust. Given the size of the lunar lander, however, their footprints would have to be six feet wide to be as visible as they are in the picture! More than that, every group of astronauts supposedly did a fair amount of walking around all their landers, but none of the other pictures show any tracks around the dot NASA claims is the orbiter! More than that, Apollos 15, 16 and 17 had motorized Lunar Rovers, supposedly, that allowed wide ranging missions, but none of those tracks are shown on the "photographs"! And the Lunar Rovers were far from small, themselves! They should be visible, too! A small package of scietific instruments is claimed visible on the picture for Apollo 14, the Lunar Rovers should be quite conspicuous spots on the photos!
There are those who point out long lasting, unnatural trails left behind by high flying jets as a government project to indoctrinate the enviornment with weather modifying chemicals. They term them "chemtrails". The "debunkers" predictably term them normal contrails. Chemtrail opponents point out that chemtrails were never reported before 1997; that normal contrails dissipate; that collections of ice crystals should not spread out the way chemtrails do; that the beginning of chemtrailing coincides with spectacular weather phenomena, like the beginning of the massive hurricane spate that included Katrina and the largest one year decline in Arctic sea ice; that government has embraced talking about "global warming" like never before, but because they are trying to avoid referring to the true cause of climate shift! But the "debunkers" constantly insist that not enough proof has been provided that chemtrails are anything more than normal contrails.
But the evidence for chemtrails is far and away more cogent and credible than the "evidence" in favor of the "moon landing"!
As is so often the case, however, it is the liars who are among the most potent enemies of their machinations.
In the article "Could moon landings have been faked? Some still think so", Brandon Griggs quotes Roger Launier, a "senior curator at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington". Launier's "explanation" for the suspicion of the "moon landings" is, "We love conspiracies. Going to the moon is hard to understand. And it's a lot easier for some people to accept the answer that, 'Well, maybe we didn't go to the moon.' A lot of it is naivete."
Of course he would try to downgrade the intelligence of those who question the "moon landings" by saying it's "hard to understand". Predictably, he would frame it as intellectual incapacity on their part, rather than a reaction to Washington's proven policy of universal deceit! But he defeats his own lies by tossing so many different ones out. Do those who disbelieve the "moon landing" do so because they like conspiracies, because they are feeble minded or because they are naive? Those three possibilities are not related! But because he didn't know what he was talking about and because he was talking just to savage them, Launier twisted about and discredited his own lies.
Incidentally, later on in the article, he also refutes his own statements, saying the numbers of those doubting NASA's "official story" are few in number. "These diehards are really vocal", he states, but they're really tiny." Again, a dig rather than a discussion. But, if people "love conspiracies" the way he states, why are there so few who supposedly believe the "moon landing" is a conspiracy?
Indeed, the entire organization NASA puts its name to doggerel which is a blatant attempt to get around the fact that there is not a single shred of verifiable evidence of a moon landing!
They are quoted in the article as saying in a statement, "Conspiracy theories are always difficult to refute because of the impossibility of proving a negative."
Again, conveniently ignoring the fact that there is no evidence that fits the bill and, instead, claiming a mental lack on the part of the doubters.
But even there, they lie.
Because it is not impossible to prove a negative!
The claim that "you can't prove a negative" is a dodge the liars in power have been hiding behind since segments of the public have become more vocal in denouncing the criminal gang that is Washington, D.C.! People provide their evidence that the events of September 11 do not conform to "Islamic 'terrorists'" piloting planes into the Twin Towers and bringing them down and confront the government to prove that George Bush didn't engineer the events. To that, the "debunkers" reply "you can't prove a negative!"
But, in fact, it's always prossible to prove an untruth! Look at the man standing next to you in line. Does he have one billion dollars in pennies in his pocket? Is it impossible to prove he does not? Is a banana blue? Is it impossible to prove a banana is not blue? Is 2 plus 2 equal to 5? Is it equal to 6, or 7, or 8? When you prove 2 plus 2 is 4, you also prove 2 plus 2 is not equal to 5, 2 plus 2 is not equal to 6, 2 plus 2 is not equal to 7, and so on!
When you prove a positive of a statement, at the same time you prove the negative of every alternative to that statement!
But, for that matter, who's asking him to prove a negative?
If the U.S. reached the moon, he would be proving a positive!
They never said you can't prove a positive! And, if the U.S. did reach the moon, then it should be possible to prove that statement!
In the end, though, it is a lie to say, "you cannot prove a negative"!
And everyone who has said it is a liar!
There is a rule in the law, "false in one, false in all". That means that, if you catch someone in a lie, you are not only allowed to disbelieve everything else they say, you are required to!
Phil Plait says, "These true believers don't live in an evidence-based world." In fact, the "evidence" of the moon landing, from simply saying it's true and ordering you to believe it or you will be ridiculed; to providing things they order you to believe are "moon rocks", yet refuse to allow you to examine; to providing grainy and over-exposed film; to providing photographs that are not proved not to be fake; to lying that "you can't prove a negative" is not evidence at all!
There is not a single scrap of verifiable, legitimate evidence that the U.S. reached the moon!
If someone chooses to lie to you, that is their sin against you, but if you choose to believe it, it is your sin against yourself! If the public shows the willingness overall to subject government lies to the scrutiny of examination, the liars will constantly be thinking twice about acting with regard for the public's conscience. Demonstrate a wholesale disinterest in questioning deceit and government will do whatever they want, not even trying to maintain an appearance of propriety! There was a day when concern for public opinion would have kept a president from launching an unprovoked attack against an aggressor nation! No longer. And it is drooling public obsequiousness to demonstrably unproved claims like the moon landing that has provided the sieve, indicated to government just how willing the majority of Americans are to accept high placed lies! Quisling cravenness has already wreaked immeasurable damage on the planet; to prolong that abomination is to embrace ruining life on this planet utterly!
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