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JFK 50TH Anniversary

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 17 Feb 2014, 15:31

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote: Why would it be on the left side of his head?

I don't know, why don't tell us? YOU posted the below pictures. If those are accurate, it appears to me that there should have been some kind of an exit wound on the left side of his head, unless, of course, it was a "magic bullet."

I dunno, how's this?

"
•Abraham Zapruder said he heard shots from his right as he filmed the assassination. That places a shooter on the knoll.
•The Newman family seen on the grass covering their children because they heard shots coming behind them from the knoll.
•Eight railroad workers on the overpass saw smoke from the knoll area.
•Senator Yarbrough’s comments on smelling gun smoke from the knoll as they passed by.
•Two of Kennedy’s top aides said they heard shots from the front.
•Orville Nix who filmed the assassination from across Elm. Said the shots were from the knoll but in his CBS interview, much to his dismay, the tape was edited to have him saying it was from the School Book Depository Building.
•The Philip Willis family, which includes his wife and two daughters. Daughter Rosemary is the girl in the red dress that can be seen running along Elm at the beginning of the Zapruder film.

I am convinced a shooter placed behind the fence near where it meets railroad overpass has the right position to produce Kennedy’s fatal head wounds. Bugliosi’s positioning near the corner of the fence is based on his intent to build a case for the lone nut scenario and nothing more.
"

Image

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com.au/20 ... angle.html

James Files' testimony is that he was aiming for the right eye socket, and missed slightly and hit the temple. The angle may have been quite oblique as pictured above. The eyewitness testimony supplied above suggests there was gunfire from the knoll, although a picture of knoll on the corner of the fence shows nothing -- they may have been placed further back in the trees at a more oblique angle. The fact that the testimony above, and other testimony suggesting multiple shooters, was disregarded by the Warren Commission speaks volumes for the process.

Further, when bullets hit skulls, which are quite thick bone, they tend to get deflected at all angles. So it's not necessarily the case that a bullet traversing from the right will come out at the left. Not that this was absolutely from the right anyhow. Further, a piece of Kennedy's skull apparently ended up more or less in a line from the trees at the eastern(?) end of the grassy knoll. Hence the bullet may have worked its way round the skull on entrance, as can happen, but the broad momentum was in the oblique direction. Finally, what was the exact angle of Kennedy's head as he was hit? Easily checked in the footage.

Image

"This photo is taken from behind the fence that is next to the grassy knoll. Those steps lead to the white colonnade. I scribbled the fence top at the bottom of the photo as an indicator because I’m shooting just over the top of it. The man in the street is standing on the 2nd X. We are looking at what the grassy knoll shooter saw. This could not be an easier shot for a trained rifleman. That 2nd red circle marks the spot by the lamp post across the street where a large piece of Kennedy’s skull landed. The Warren Commission never showed the public this angle, did they?"

http://www.terrymooreart.com/archives/1709
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 17 Feb 2014, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 17 Feb 2014, 15:53

hmmm.....


The 5th, 6th, and 7th floors were no longer used as a warehouse. It had become a commercialized tourist attraction that weakly impersonated a museum. The main floor was a gift shop where tickets were sold to those who wished to ascend to the 6th floor. And for some unexplained reason, cameras were forbidden.

I surrendered my camera, paid my money and entered the elevator. A few minutes later I knew that my government had taken great pains to lie to the American people for the previous twenty-three years.
[...]
But this hot day in Dallas would alter that for me. Not because of any change in personal politics or loyalties, but of another, entirely different factor: a gut-wrenching, instantaneous realization that I, along with every other patriotic American, had been duped.

After wandering around the floor for a few minutes, I turned my attention to the window in the southeast corner - the infamous Sniper's Nest. The actual window where Oswald had supposedly fired the shots had been enclosed within a small glass partition which made it inaccessible to direct scrutiny. But the window to its right was outside the glass wall. I walked up to it and looked down.

I immediately felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer. The word that came to mind at what I saw as I looked down through the window to Elm Street and the kill zone was: Impossible!

I knew instantly that Oswald could not have done it. At least not alone. Oswald could not have possibly fired three shots in rapid succession--5.6 seconds according to the museum displays--with a worn-out military surplus Mannlicher-Carcano mounted with a cheap telescopic sight from that particular location to the kill zone I now examined in more detail on the street below. The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it.

Unlike Oswald, who failed to qualify on the rifle range in Boot Camp, and who barely qualified "Marksman"--the lowest of three grades--on a later try
, I was a trained and combat-experienced Marine sniper. I had spent a year in Vietnam, during which time I had numerous occasions to line up living, breathing human beings in the crosshairs of my precision Unertl scope and squeeze the trigger of my bolt-action Model 70 Winchester and send a .30 caliber match-grade round zipping down range.

Here I was, a professional police officer and writer, looking down at the most famous ambush site in history through the eyes of a sniper. A strange feeling came over me. A feeling of calm, dampening my anger. The trained investigator inside me surfaced and took over my emotions. I began to scrutinize what my senses were absorbing.

First, I analyzed the scene as a sniper. In the time allotted, and in the distance along the street in which the rounds had impacted the target from first report to final shot, it would take a minimum of two people shooting. There was little hope that I alone, even if armed with the precision equipment I had used in Vietnam, would be able duplicate the feat described by the Warren Commission. So if I couldn't, I reasoned, Oswald couldn't.

Unless he had help.


I looked at the engagement angle. It was entirely wrong. The wall of the building in which the windows overlooked Dealey Plaza ran east and west. By looking directly down at the best engagement angle--which was straight out the window facing south--I could see Houston Street. Houston was perpendicular to the wall and ran directly toward my window. This is the street on which the motorcade had approached and would have been my second choice as a zone of engagement. My first choice was directly below the window, at a drastic bend in the street that had to be negotiated by Kennedy's limousine. It would have to slow appreciably, almost to a stop, and when it did, the target would be presented moving at its slowest pace. The last zone of engagement I would pick would be as the limo drove away toward the west--and the Grassy Knoll. Here, from what I could see, three problems arose that would influence my shots. First, the target was moving away at a drastic angle to the right from the window, meaning that I would have to position my body to compete with the wall and a set of vertical water pipes on the left frame of the window to get a shot. This would be extremely difficult for a right-handed shooter. Second, I would have be ready to fire exactly when the target emerged past some tree branches that obscured the kill zone. Finally, I would have to deal with two factors at the same time: the curve of the street, and the high-to-low angle formula--a law of physics Oswald would not have known.

Even if I waited for the target to pass the primary and secondary engagement zones, and for some reason decided to engage instead in the worst possible area, I still had to consider the fact that Oswald made his farthest, and most difficult shot, last. I estimated the range for this shot at between 80 and 90 yards. It was this final shot that, according to the Warren Commission, struck Kennedy's head.

As an experienced sniper, something else bothered me. Any sniper knows that the two most important things to be considered in selecting a position are the fields of fire, and a route of escape. You have to have both. It is of little value to take a shot, then not be able to successfully get away to fight another day. Even if the window was a spot that I would select for a hide, I had doubts about my ability to escape afterwards. According to what little I had read, the elevator was stuck on a floor below at the time in question, and only the stairway could have been used as a means of withdrawal. And there were dozens of people--potential witnesses--below who would be able to identify anyone rushing away from the scene. Not good.

But Oswald was not a trained or experienced military sniper. He was supposed to be little more than some odd-ball with a grudge. And for whatever reason, had decided to buy a rifle and shoot the President of the United States. Or so the Warren Commission would have us believe.

http://www.riflewarrior.com/case_of_the ... _shots.htm

So, 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. Profwag keeps claiming a longer time interval than this -- why?

Oswald failed to qualify on the rifle range in Boot Camp, and barely qualified "Marksman", the lowest of three grades, on a later try -- profwag keeps insisting he was a better shot than this -- why?

For the sake of argument, let us assume that the Warren Commission was correct in their findings. Oswald, the lone nut, was the only shooter to fire at the President. He managed to smuggle his rifle up to the 6th floor, realizing well in advance that the motorcade would pass through Dealey Plaza below on his lunch hour--which is the only open kill zone on the route-- and was well-prepared to take as many shots as he could at the open convertible (which he didn't even know would be uncovered that day, nor did anyone know that the motorcade would detour to Elm for a turn back to the west by the Book Depository unless they caught a late issue of the newspaper).

More impossible stuff wag has consistently and repeatedly failed to address -- LHO's ability to time travel or find out top secret travel plans in time to get a job at the book depository.

And the other implausibilities:

It's a warm, muggy November day. But only two windows on the 6th Floor are opened in the un-airconditioned building. You are sweating, both because of the heat and because of what you are getting ready to do. Your plans are just about to culminate in your chance to change history (for whatever motive). You look at your watch. It's almost time. You pick up your rifle and kneel at the window overlooking Elm Street. Even though there is a large crowd below, you are unconcerned about being seen--even with the weapon.

For some unfathomable reason, you have picked a confined area of Elm Street as your kill zone. You have disregarded Houston Street, which is aligned perfectly with your corner of the building, affording you a straight head-on shot for over a block where the motorcade will move slowly toward you. But shooting Kennedy from the front, where he is most vulnerable, is not what you intend to do. You have decided, for some reason to shoot Kennedy in the back, through the trees, on a winding street, at a relatively steep vertical angle, in a partially obscured, confined area that is barely visible from the window on the Elm side.

Now it's time. The motorcade is approaching. You work the bolt on the Carcano, chambering an unpredictable round-nosed 6.5mm cartridge. You bring the short-barreled carbine to your shoulder (it wasn't really a rifle), and sight through the misaligned, non-boresighted scope with defective optics and loose mount, and study the thin crosshairs. Your field of view is almost non-existent. You note that you can barely pick out one or two people in the circular lens. To bring this weapon on target after the recoil of a shot will be challenging, to say the least.


You wait. The motorcade turns the corner onto Elm, each vehicle almost stopping as they negotiate the 120 degree turn. Then you see the President. He looks different in person, alive, human. And there's Jackie. And Connally...

You are not looking though the scope now. You are simply watching the cars move slowly down Elm. You wait for a few seconds as they come into your kill zone, then raise the scope to your eye, taking a second to establish the proper eye-relief between your eyeball and the lens so that "half-moon shadows" don't appear on the edge of the sight picture. After all, the crosshairs and scope have to be exactly aligned or you will miss the target entirely. And this has to be done after every shot.

But wait, you are not a trained sniper. You have no idea of the "high-low" formula, or the minute-of-angle rule. You don't realize that a sniper, shooting from high to low angle, has to aim low. You don't realize that if you don't aim low at the range you have selected, that you will miss the target by up to a foot. No one has told you that because of the effects of gravity, the bullet will not drop an appreciable amount--like it did on the rifle range which was a flat-trajectory shot.

Maybe sweat is not stinging your eyes, and maybe your hands aren't shaking even though you have never killed anyone before and are now about to do so. But more than likely, you find it hard to hold the rifle on target. But you must. Seconds are ticking by and you will miss your chance. Don't worry about the time, concentrate on the crosshairs. But wait, no one ever told you to do that. Instead, you are watching the target, which is clear in your scope, and your crosshairs are a blur--exactly the opposite of what must occur for an accurate shot.

Never mind. You have other problems to contend with. Your adrenalin is pumping and you find your arms acting like they are detached from your body. Somehow you manage to regain mental control of your limbs, and at the same time attempt to control your breathing. What did they say on the rifle range in the Marines? Oh yes, "BRASS." Breath, Relax, Aim, Slack, Squeeze. That's it.

You hold your breath, try your best to relax, aim the weapon--centering on the head of the President of the United States in your scope, take up the slack from the trigger and squeeze...

The first shot jolts you back to reality. You've done it! But did you hit anything? Now your adrenalin is really pumping as your curiosity makes you glance quickly at the street below while you take the weapon away from your line of vision to work the bolt, chambering a fresh round.

You realign, sight in again as the dark blue Lincoln begins to disappear around the bend behind that damned tree. Screw it. Shoot. This time you manage to get the shot off a little faster. "Buck Fever" has subsided a bit. Still, you aren't sure if you hit anything because in your haste you jerked the trigger--you didn't have time for a proper squeeze. You work the bolt again, ejecting the spent casing to the right and across the room into the cardboard boxes--or at least that's where it should have gone.

Your last shot. The car is now at maximum range--actually almost out of view--but miraculously, for some reason, the car slows almost to a complete stop. You even see the brake lights come on. You shoot. Unknown to you this round hits Connally. All of a sudden the car speeds up and dashes away under the triple overpass.

Elapsed time so far since the first shot, 5.6 seconds! Not bad, considering that it takes a minimum of 3.3 seconds to fire, work the bolt, and fire again--and then only if you don't take time to accurately realign the rifle on the target before the next shot.

It's time to get away. You pull back from the window and sprint to the opposite end of the 6th floor, noting that there still is not a single person who has come up from the floor below to investigate the noise of the shots. You find a place between some boxes to hide the carbine. You didn't note, in your haste, that you left your lunch sack and a pop bottle that would undoubtedly contain your finger prints behind at the window, and nearby, only a few inches from the wall, just to the right of the window, are the three expended 6.5mm casings--neatly grouped as if they'd been placed there on purpose. Mysteriously, there is no stripper clip which should have fallen to the floor through the magazine floor plate--and the weapon could not have functioned without it!

You race down the stairs to the second floor (the elevator is stuck on a floor below) and enter the coffee room. You have time to fish some change out of your pocket, buy a coke, and drink half of it in the few seconds it took for a policeman to rush into the Depository, charge up one flight of stairs and charge up to the door of the room. He notes that you are standing casually by the Coke machine, haven't broken a sweat, and that you seem calm, breathing normally. This feat in itself is quite remarkable considering that you had to run completely across the 6th floor after taking your last shot, maneuvering around stacks of boxes as you raced away from your "sniper's nest," to the opposite (northwest) corner of the warehouse to the stair well. You then had to race unseen down four flights of stairs, then across the building's second floor to the coffee room where you had time to fish a dime from your pocket, buy the Coke from the vending machine, and drink half of itCall in one minute or less from the time the final shot was fired! (According the Gerald Posner in his "Oswald-did-it-the-Warren-Commission- was-right" book Case Closed, this is what had to have happened for Oswald to have accomplished his single- sniper feat).

The policeman, Dallas motorcycle officer Marrion Baker, asks your boss if you are an employee. When this is confirmed, he breaks away to search the floors above.

A few seconds later, after Baker is out of sight, you make your getaway. But instead of taking some pre-planned mode of transportation out of town, you simply walk out the front door where you run into NBC reporter Robert McNeil who asks directions to the nearest telephone. You deal with him in a very calm, collected manner, then go home to your rented room. You know that you will soon be missed at work, that the Dallas police will begin rounding up anyone in the vicinity to question almost immediately, but you still don't try to escape by leaving the city. Even if you decided at the last moment to attempt such a move, you wouldn't be able to get very far on the $17.00 you have in your pocket. Instead, you decide to take a walk--outside, in public view.

I walked all around Dealey Plaza, exploring any spot that I felt might serve the purpose of a sniper. Finally I arrived at the Grassy Knoll and the Picket Fence, which I had purposely saved for last. I walked up the slope and around the fence, arriving in a parking lot that was bordered on the northwest by train tracks. I walked the length of the fence, stopping at a spot on the eastern end.

I looked over the fence at Elm Street and froze. This is exactly where I would position myself if I wanted the most accurate shot possible considering the terrain I had explored. It had some drawbacks--it was close to witnesses, and prone to pre-incident discovery [hence the fake Secret Service men turning people away from the area throughout? and the standdown of the Dallas PD to make sure there were no real cops about -- and the supposed 'last minute' route change of course that would have thrown all policing out the window]--but the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages for a determined assassin. The target vehicle would be approaching instead of moving away, thereby continually decreasing the range; the shot would be almost flat trajectory, making the down-angle formula a moot point; the deflection (right/left angle) would change little until the car passed a freeway sign on the north curbline; and finally, it offered numerous escape route possibilities. Behind me, to the north and west, was a parking lot full of cars, a train yard full of boxcars, and several physical terrain features to use as cover during withdrawal. It was by far the best spot.


Looking almost due east, across the grassy open park-like Plaza, I could see two multi-story office-type buildings approximately the same height as the Depository. The roof tops of either building would be excellent firing positions for a trained rifleman with the proper equipment, and would be the places I would select if I wanted the best possible chance of not being detected in advance. Without going to the roofs of each, I could not determine the accessibility of escape routes. But for firing platforms, they were ideal.

Then, considering the possibility of multiple-snipers (which meant a conspiracy), I had to ask myself how I would position the shooters to cover the kill zone in front of the Grassy Knoll?

My military training once again took over. I would use an area within the Plaza that would afford the best kill zone for either a crossfire or triangulated fire. Simply put, I would position my teams in such a way that their trajectory of fire converged on the most advantageous point to assure a kill. In the military, single snipers are seldom used. Normally, the smallest sniper team consists of two men, a sniper and his spotter/security man. Even in police SWAT teams, a marksman has an observer who is equipped with a spotting scope or binoculars to help pick and identify targets and handle the radio communications.

In this case, I would position at least one team behind the Picket Fence (more if I wanted to secure the rear against intruders), another on one or both of the two office buildings (which I later found to be the Dallas County Records Building and the County Criminal Courts Building), and possibly a team on a building across the street north of the Records Building known at the time as the Dal-Tex building. I would have never put anyone in the School Book Depository with so many locations that were much more advantageous--unless I needed diversion. If I did, it would be a good place for red herrings to be observed by witnesses.

By this time it was growing late. The banquet started in an hour, and I still had to make my way through Dallas traffic back to the hotel. It had been more than an interesting day. It had been a day in which I had discovered that the United States Government had lied to me all of my adult life. The same government that had sent me to Vietnam, had sacrificed over 58,000 of my peers for no discernable gain, and had withdrawn from Southeast Asia after supposedly securing Nixon's "Peace with Honor."

Honor? I had just discovered what I later found so many others had discovered before. A coup d' etat had occurred, and then had successfully been covered up at the highest levels of government for over a quarter of a century. I found it hard to sleep that night.

The assassination of John F. Kennedy was not the issue. It was the fact that the government, my government, had lied to me. As a police officer sworn to uphold the law, there are no stratus levels in criminals. A liar, a thief, or a murderer is exactly that. There is no one who has the privilege to commit a crime without prosecution. Every rookie of every police academy in the country learns one thing above all: no one is above the law!

Not even the President of the United States--or those who control him.

Excerpt from Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza

Funny that the Bush cartel just committed troops and a trillion dollars to another more or less fruitless exercise in Iran and Afghanistan -- both govts have rejected trade overtures from the US since the overthrows and occupations, meaning nothing has been gained. History repeating with Republicans and the oil elites.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 17 Feb 2014, 20:12

A couple notes to your post Syd. 3 shots in 5.6 seconds is as wrong as it can be. Try closer to 9 seconds. Whomever has said less than 6 seconds is just plain wrong. ALL of the evidence points to the 3 shots being much, much longer than 6 seconds. Here is a fact that is always overlooked by CTers. Zapruder stopped filming as the limo made the turn. He did this as developing is expensive and he wanted to save film. The total time between shots cannot be determined by analysis of the Zapruder film. As such, the length of time for all 3 shots cannot be accurately determined and could only be determined if we knew exactly when the first shot was fired. Now, the length of time between the 2nd and 3rd shots can and this length of time which was close to 4 seconds can be determined, but for some reason, unbeknownst to me, conspiracy theorists always use that length of time as the entire sequence of events. They are wrong and by continuing post from conspiracy theory websites rather than from unbiased sources will continue to be wrong. I beg of you Syd, look at unbiased information.
Second, and this is extremely important that shows a major flaw in your argument, since the early days of the 20th Century, rifles do not produce smoke, especially after only a couple firings. Some will produce a little after several repeated firings due to heat and dirt build up, but even then, the smoke dissipates quickly. This isn't the movies, this is real life and if you don't believe me about the smoke, feel free to go out to the firing range or stop by your local gun dealership and ask for ammo that produces smoke for every bullet fired. You'll actually look like a fool if you were to ask for it.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 17 Feb 2014, 20:37

hmm, so all the witnesses imagined smoke? there's not even a little bit?

Posner Claim:
"Railroad workers on the overpass could not have seen puffs of smoke from rifle fire on the knoll, because modern ammunition is smokeless, it seldom creates even a wisp of smoke." (Case Closed, page 256)

Evidence:
Posner's claim is easily disproved by visiting a rifle range. Just watch people shoot. Puffs of smoke will be seen all over the place. Even a government investigation conceded that "modern weapons do in fact emit smoke when fired." ( House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, 1979, page 606)

Posner Claim:
"Edward Jay Epstein in Inquest, writes 'Five of the witnesses on the overpass said they had also seen smoke rise from the grassy knoll area.' Epstein's citation lists only four names, three of which do not support the proposition that the smoke resulted from gunfire". (Case Closed, page 256)

Evidence:
There are seven well-documented witnesses who claim to have seen smoke on the knoll. They are S. M. Holland (who testified before the Warren Commission (6H243), James Simmons and Richard Dodd (both interviewed by Mark Lane in the film Rush to Judgment), Walter Winborn and Thomas Murphy (both interviewed by me in May 1966), Austin Miller (who wrote a statement to the Dallas Sheriff's Department on November 22), and reporter Ed Johnson (who wrote for his paper the next day. "Some of us saw little puffs of white smoke that seemed to hit the grassy area in the esplanade that divides Dallas' main downtown streets." (Fort Worth Star-Telegram, November 23, 1963)

Posner Claim:
"James Simmons said [to the FBI] he thought the shots came from the Book Depository and that he saw 'exhaust fumes' from the embankment." (Case Closed, page 256)

Evidence:
This is indeed what two FBI agents claim Simmons said to them in March of 1964. (22H833) This FBI report, however, is a fabrication. One of Posner's main flaws, which he shares with the Warren Commission, is his unquestioning reliance on hearsay reports of FBI agents. Many witnesses contradicted what was in their FBI reports, and Simmons was one of them. Simmons told Mark Lane in a filmed interview, "It sounded like it came from the left and in front of us towards the wooden fence. And there was a puff of smoke that came underneath the trees on the embankment... It was right directly in front of the wooden fence." Simmons told the FBI agents when they visited him that he had seen a "puff of smoke on the knoll." Evidently, they chose to hand in a false report instead. (The film Rush to Judgment)

Posner Claim:
"Austin Miller 'thought the smoke he saw was steam. . . . There was a steam pipe along the wooden fence near the edge of the Triple Underpass...' If there was smoke, it is most likely that Austin Miller was right, and it was from the pipe." (Case Closed, page 256)

Evidence:
Not quite. Posner does not accurately represent what Austin Miller said. In a sworn statement to the Dallas Sheriff's Department on November 22, Austin Miller said, "I saw something which I thought was smoke or steam coming from a group of trees north of Elm off the Railroad tracks." (19H485) When he was questioned four and a half months later by Commission counsel David Belin, he was not asked one question about the smoke or steam he observed. The steam pipe that Posner refers to can been seen in the film Rush to Judgment. It is over 100 feet away from the point on the knoll where smoke was observed by seven witnesses. No one reported smoke or steam at the location of the steam pipe. If a steam pipe had been the cause of smoke at the site of the steam pipe or on the grassy knoll, one would expect the steam or smoke to have been seen again. No such sightings occurred. Posner has a tendency to misrepresent what the witnesses said. He criticizes another author for listing Victoria Adams as a witness who picked the knoll as the origin of the shots when she actually described the shots as coming from the vicinity of the Book Depository. (Case Closed, page 237) Adams did no such thing. She was looking out of a fourth floor window of the Book Depository when the shots were fired. She testified, "And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot. It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below [the knoll] rather than the left above." She then ran out of the building and over to the knoll in the direction she believed the shots came from. (6H388)

Posner Claim:
"Clemon Johnson [another railroad worker] saw white smoke but told the FBI that it 'came from a motorcycle abandoned near the spot by a Dallas policeman.'" (Case Closed, page 256)

Evidence:
The railroad workers saw a puff of smoke right after they heard the last shot. There was no motorcycle on the knoll at that time, as clearly shown in photographs taken by a witness, Wilma Bond, after the assassination. (Life magazine, November 24, 1967)

Posner's presentation of the evidence of the assassination is deceptive and contrived. He is so confident of his arguments, so disdainful of the questions that have been raised, that he is disposed to make any argument, no matter how fatuous or fabricated, that a lone assassin killed Kennedy. To say otherwise, in light of the overwhelming evidence, he tells us in the last line of Case Closed, "is to absolve a man with blood on his hands, and to mock the President he killed".

http://www.ctka.net/posner_galanor.html


that's funny, I thought I saw some smoke at 0:36 when this guy fires his Remington Fireball XP-100 -- quite a lot of it:



And again at 1:11:



What's your next line of BS and cover-up, wag? I suppose we can keep this going all day, but really, is anyone following this line of argumentation and continual ducking and weaving from wag? I mean, really, what should anyone be thinking by now?
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 17 Feb 2014, 21:13

OK, there you go, 8.3 seconds -- but a study with that rifle type undertaken in Italy suggests it's still nowhere near possible:

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

John F Kennedy and Jackie in an open-topped car in Dallas: Zapruder. Oswald 'did not have time to fire all Kennedy bullets'

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists

By Tim Shipman in Washington

12:01AM BST 01 Jul 2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot.
Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... llets.html
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 18 Feb 2014, 20:32

SydneyPSIder wrote:But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! What a great way to start my day Syd. Thanks! Hell, it would take me a lot longer than 19 seconds to LOAD and fire 3 shots!!! They were quick!!!
Here's a vid of a guy making 6 shots in 5.1 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4c5Zr7hzzA

Here's another one showing different people attempting the shot. Note that they were all shooting as fast as they could and were doing it in under 6 seconds. That means LHO was taking about a second longer than these guys--within the range of possibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovyEqfR8Hg

I will make an admission that I was incorrect about the smoke. It appears that there may be some minor smoke that can be produced, depending on the ammo. Though I still question how much of it will be seen from some distance and the short time it takes for it to dissipate.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 19 Feb 2014, 13:37

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! What a great way to start my day Syd. Thanks! Hell, it would take me a lot longer than 19 seconds to LOAD and fire 3 shots!!! They were quick!!!
Here's a vid of a guy making 6 shots in 5.1 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4c5Zr7hzzA

Here's another one showing different people attempting the shot. Note that they were all shooting as fast as they could and were doing it in under 6 seconds. That means LHO was taking about a second longer than these guys--within the range of possibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovyEqfR8Hg

I will make an admission that I was incorrect about the smoke. It appears that there may be some minor smoke that can be produced, depending on the ammo. Though I still question how much of it will be seen from some distance and the short time it takes for it to dissipate.


yes, thanks for noting you were completely wrong about gunsmoke, presumably just borrowing copy from apologists like Posner.

further, the example of a guy getting off 6 shots in 5 seconds is someone who is not sighting on a moving target travelling away from him at a downwards trajectory firing from about 20m in the air, on someone rated at the lowest possible level in their military training (something you have chosen not to dispute this time) who had no idea how to adjust trajectory when firing downwards, etc.

I would suspect that the rifle in the sample youtubes was well lubricated and cared for also. The rifleman is also quite muscular, unlike LHO.

Just because the sample gunman is staring at a scope doesn't mean he's sighting on anything or hitting anything accurately, does it? Nor is he trying to kill a human being for the first time in his life, that human being being the president of the united states to boot.

So once again you haven't proven anything at all, something we're getting used to here. Further, the case far from rests on the possible timing of the 3 shots, it's pretty well just incidental and another unlikelihood, but once again as a seasoned pseudoscep you've homed in on something inconsequential to pick at to the exclusion of all else, as though that can somehow disprove the theory.

The Italian study presumably required someone to sight on a moving target travelling 20m below and have a chance of hitting it.

You still have problems explaining the 3 shot/5 shot conundrum, the magic bullet problem, the example in the pic above of where a piece of JFK's skull landed in line with a shot from the grassy knoll, the stand down of the Dallas PD, the inability of the SS to see someone with a gun in the 6th floor, 2 SS men standing off the back of the presidential limo, the bizarre configuration of the escort bikes behind the presidential limo, LBJ discussing get rid of the president with his mistress a day earlier, numerous other eyewitness accounts of smoke, the strong political connections of Jack Ruby, David Ferrie, the fact they were all known to each other, and so on and so on. Then the fingerprint of Mac Wallace, LBJ's personal hitman, was found on one of the boxes pulled together to make the putative 'sniper's nest'. Members of the Warren Commission said the process was corrupt, and a later investigation in the 70s when the Zapruder film was released also said the event was a conspiracy of some sort. It's not possible for the bullets that were picked up to have remained in perfect shape, LHO's putative cartridge shells were neatly laid side by side, etc etc.

I just don't understand why you are such an apologist for the Warren Commission and the 'official' story when so much evidence, physical and circumstantial, goes against it. You must be getting paid.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 19 Feb 2014, 18:49

SydneyPSIder wrote:
You still have problems explaining the 3 shot/5 shot conundrum, the magic bullet problem, the example in the pic above of where a piece of JFK's skull landed in line with a shot from the grassy knoll, the stand down of the Dallas PD, the inability of the SS to see someone with a gun in the 6th floor, 2 SS men standing off the back of the presidential limo, the bizarre configuration of the escort bikes behind the presidential limo, LBJ discussing get rid of the president with his mistress a day earlier, numerous other eyewitness accounts of smoke, the strong political connections of Jack Ruby, David Ferrie, the fact they were all known to each other, and so on and so on. Then the fingerprint of Mac Wallace, LBJ's personal hitman, was found on one of the boxes pulled together to make the putative 'sniper's nest'. Members of the Warren Commission said the process was corrupt, and a later investigation in the 70s when the Zapruder film was released also said the event was a conspiracy of some sort. It's not possible for the bullets that were picked up to have remained in perfect shape, LHO's putative cartridge shells were neatly laid side by side, etc etc.

Oh for the love of god, all of those things have been totally explained and debunked. Just because you don't want to believe them doesn't mean a damn thing. For the last time, most people only heard 3 shots (don't know where you get 5 shots), the magic bullet isn't a problem. The bullet acted exactly as it should have. Etc. etc. etc. I just don't see a need to rehash what's already been shown to disprove everything you write. It's all out there, but if you're only going to research conspiracy websites, then you'll never learn the truth. It's a damn shame that the facts that have been shown through unbiased testing all points to only one answer. It's also a damn shame that the evidence that LHO shot at Walker and Tippit, which shows his ability to kill, goes undiscussed by CTers. People just don't want to believe that a nobody could have pulled off the assassination.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 20 Feb 2014, 04:27

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:
You still have problems explaining the 3 shot/5 shot conundrum, the magic bullet problem, the example in the pic above of where a piece of JFK's skull landed in line with a shot from the grassy knoll, the stand down of the Dallas PD, the inability of the SS to see someone with a gun in the 6th floor, 2 SS men standing off the back of the presidential limo, the bizarre configuration of the escort bikes behind the presidential limo, LBJ discussing get rid of the president with his mistress a day earlier, numerous other eyewitness accounts of smoke, the strong political connections of Jack Ruby, David Ferrie, the fact they were all known to each other, and so on and so on. Then the fingerprint of Mac Wallace, LBJ's personal hitman, was found on one of the boxes pulled together to make the putative 'sniper's nest'. Members of the Warren Commission said the process was corrupt, and a later investigation in the 70s when the Zapruder film was released also said the event was a conspiracy of some sort. It's not possible for the bullets that were picked up to have remained in perfect shape, LHO's putative cartridge shells were neatly laid side by side, etc etc.

Oh for the love of god, all of those things have been totally explained and debunked. Just because you don't want to believe them doesn't mean a damn thing. For the last time, most people only heard 3 shots (don't know where you get 5 shots), the magic bullet isn't a problem. The bullet acted exactly as it should have. Etc. etc. etc. I just don't see a need to rehash what's already been shown to disprove everything you write. It's all out there, but if you're only going to research conspiracy websites, then you'll never learn the truth. It's a damn shame that the facts that have been shown through unbiased testing all points to only one answer. It's also a damn shame that the evidence that LHO shot at Walker and Tippit, which shows his ability to kill, goes undiscussed by CTers. People just don't want to believe that a nobody could have pulled off the assassination.

There are 5 shots on the known audio recordings. Independent lab analyses have demonstrated it. The 'testing' that you refer to is of the same standard as that done by NIST in the wake of 9/11 -- shoddy, contrived or non-existent. You keep saying over and over on various threads that things have been 'totally explained and debunked' and offer up as proof completely piss-poor evidence with holes you could drive a truck through.

It's unlikely on the evidence that LHO 'shot at' Tippit -- who was shot and killed by someone -- there are witnesses who place others at the scene of Tippit's shooting, and it's assumed that one of the escaping conspirators or assassins perpetrated the crime -- it was not a logical way for LHO to return to his digs, and eyewitnesses describe other scenarios. The Gen Walker situation may have been another person masquerading as LHO, in the interests of setting up the backstory of LHO being a loon -- or he may have been instructed to shoot and miss without knowing why, believing he was an important 'intelligence irregular' doing some sort of important intelligence work (much as the mysterious 9/11 pilot patsies with fake passports and identities had to enrol in single-engine Cessna flying schools as a cover) -- he was definitely on the payroll of the INO at the time, and he was definitely placed in Russia as an American spy, there is no question of that -- the documents outlining his placement in Russia are a matter of public record, and it was a common cold war strategy used by the US for a number of people at that time, where the Russians were duly suspicious of characters like Oswald arriving seeking refuge. Then Oswald came straight back to the states express delivery with no problems whatsoever with the authorities after his sojourn in Russia. There is another contrived situation prior to the assassination where LHO was supposed to be in Mexico, when he wasn't -- the person described in Mexico went by his name and looked completely different.

One of the supposed bullets that hit JFK was 'found' on his hospital stretcher ferchrissakes. Another was perfectly intact and undeformed after supposedly passing through multiple bits of soft tissue and bone.

It's funny that eyewitness accounts and the usual judicial process in profwag's eyes just become a 'conspiracy', and he's happy with cover-up stories that he likes to call 'debunking'.

What's really funny is that profwag is the most like the X-Files aphorism -- he 'wants to believe' any official story no matter how implausible.

On the judicial standard of the 'balance of probabilities', I'm afraid the Mafia/CIA/LBJ/oilmen/military-industrial complex nexus dunnit. Case closed.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 20 Feb 2014, 08:31

SydneyPSIder wrote:There are 5 shots on the known audio recordings. Independent lab analyses have demonstrated it.

No they haven't. That's been debunked several times over. Personally, I'm only familiar with people saying there was a 4th shot, so I'm not sure where you get the 5th shot from. Since you did not post your references, I'm unable to review them and you already know that I can't take your word for it. If you'd like to provide solid evidence to the contrary, I'll look.
Having said that, my evidence for my conclusion can be found here:
http://www.thekennedyhalfcentury.com/pdf/Kennedy-Half-Century-Audio-Research.pdf

And these conclusions from the National Academy of Sciences which stated:
"For the reasons discussed above and in the appendixes, the Committee on Ballistic Acoustics has reached the following unanimous conclusions:
(a) The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of a 95% probability of such a shot.
(b) The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
(c) Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."
http://www.jfk-online.com/nas04.html#7

SydneyPSIder wrote:The 'testing' that you refer to is of the same standard as that done by NIST in the wake of 9/11 -- shoddy, contrived or non-existent. You keep saying over and over on various threads that things have been 'totally explained and debunked' and offer up as proof completely piss-poor evidence with holes you could drive a truck through.

The testing I'm referring to includes the National Academy of Sciences. Again, you're references are either non existent or not reliable. I'll stick with the NAS. Additionally, you referred to some Italian study that said it took them 19 seconds to load and shoot which I'm still giggling over. You conspiracy theorists just don't study things closely. Again, who the hell cares how long it took them to load? I've shown videos of people demonstrating that it was quite possible for LHO to fire 3 shots in more than enough time for JFKs limo. Nobody has produced video evidence to the contrary. Do you know why? Because it can be done. Period. Here's an article that supports this from "guns america." These guys know a little bit more about guns than I assume you or I.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/lee-harvey-oswalds-carcano-rifle-shooting-it-today/

SydneyPSIder wrote:It's unlikely on the evidence that LHO 'shot at' Tippit -- who was shot and killed by someone -- there are witnesses who place others at the scene of Tippit's shooting, and it's assumed that one of the escaping conspirators or assassins perpetrated the crime -- it was not a logical way for LHO to return to his digs, and eyewitnesses describe other scenarios.

Again, you say it's "unlikely" but produce no evidence. 12 people were witnesses to the Tippit murder. None of whom said it wasn't Oswald. 5 of them picked him out of a lineup. Other's identified him from pictures. A couple said they didn't get a good look at him. To say it's "unlikely" and then not tell us why is not a very good debate tactic...
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0425a.htm

SydneyPSIder wrote:The Gen Walker situation may have been another person masquerading as LHO, in the interests of setting up the backstory of LHO being a loon --

Again, no supporting evidence that someone was "masquerading as LHO." The evidence doesn't support this conclusion. To say it was someone else is simply calling his wife a liar. His handwritten note supports his attempt on Walker. Please don't use imagination, but look at the evidence.
SydneyPSIder wrote:On the judicial standard of the 'balance of probabilities', I'm afraid the Mafia/CIA/LBJ/oilmen/military-industrial complex nexus dunnit. Case closed.

And that final statement says it all--there is no evidence to conclude that anyone other than LHO shot that day. Mafia? CIA? LBJ? etc.? All you're doing is guessing but not looking at evidence. Not the right way to draw a conclusion.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby NinjaPuppy » 20 Feb 2014, 11:42

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:On the judicial standard of the 'balance of probabilities', I'm afraid the Mafia/CIA/LBJ/oilmen/military-industrial complex nexus dunnit. Case closed.

And that final statement says it all--there is no evidence to conclude that anyone other than LHO shot that day. Mafia? CIA? LBJ? etc.? All you're doing is guessing but not looking at evidence. Not the right way to draw a conclusion.

That is why it's not called a conspiracy conclusion. It's a theory.

the·o·ry
ˈTHēərē,ˈTHi(ə)rē/
noun
noun: theory; plural noun: theories

1.
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
"Darwin's theory of evolution"
synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presupposition;
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 20 Feb 2014, 18:42

Thank you for the definition Ninja. There are still theories that are based on fact and fiction. It's great to have theories about things and we definitely need to investigate theories, but theories should be based on truthful evidence and not false imagination, IMHO.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 01 Apr 2014, 16:01

ProfWag wrote:Thank you for the definition Ninja. There are still theories that are based on fact and fiction. It's great to have theories about things and we definitely need to investigate theories, but theories should be based on truthful evidence and not false imagination, IMHO.

The sophistry is getting a bit overwhelming. All style and no substance. Your comments might apply to people who see faces on Mars, but the evidence re JFK is a little more solid than that. And deeply disturbing.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 05 May 2014, 21:09

hmm, very crooked stuff indeed -- recommend watching the segment starting at 28:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2agPurqFJk#t=1723

Based on the obvious creation and tendering of clearly fake photos of the wound, contradicted by the zapruder footage and numerous eyewitness, elements inside the govt clearly were involved in covering up an assassination. Interesting also that JFK's brain had 'gone missing' or been all but entirely removed before the official autopsy -- evidence which would have shown bullet trails and fragments of bullets. And govt officials had raced the body out of the hospital in Dallas over the objections of the local coroner. All highly irregular. And the 'official' autopsy was done by non-forensic non-experts from the Navy who'd never done one in their lives before.

The whole series is worth watching of course. There's little doubt the same crew of govt fakers happily went on to delude us about the success of the Apollo space program and indeed their successors have perpetrated the 9/11 scam and others.



Further, there were 3 eyewitnesses to 2 men at the grassy knoll, including seeing a puff of smoke, and a gun being disassembled and placed in a toolbox. One witness was a railway employee working in the observation tower who testified he saw 2 men, then died in a mysterious car accident 2 years later. Another was a young serviceman filming who felt a bullet whiz by his ear, and was accosted by a man with a gun who took his film. The third was a deaf and dumb man who saw the gun being disassembled and placed in a toolbox and taken away -- who tried to report it to the FBI, and was offered money by them not to testify. Both are still alive at the time of the doco and repeat what they saw at 12:34 and elsewhere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LbNWUNfnaA#t=754

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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 08 May 2014, 08:21

SydneyPSIder wrote:. Another was a young serviceman filming who felt a bullet whiz by his ear, and was accosted by a man with a gun who took his film.


Gordon Arnold? He he, have you bothered to look at the whole story (or should I say "stories" of Gordon Arnold? You haven't? I didn't think so.
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