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JFK 50TH Anniversary

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 03 Dec 2013, 02:11

SydneyPSIder wrote:Because David Ferrie interestingly claimed he had never met LHO. It would be hard to be a squadron leader over someone for some time and then forget their name and face, wouldn't it? Someone that forgetful would never be a squadron leader in the first place, surely. And all the other squadron members seem to be able to remember both people quite clearly. Reasonableness test applies again — a test which defines all judicial reasoning of which you seem unduly suspicious.

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. According to his mother and friend, he went 2 or 3 times, 4 at most when he was 15. He was quiet and sat off to the side. Ferrie, as Captain, rarely participated in those meetings. It is my experience that it would have been quite the opposite and that it would have been surprising to the highest raised eyebrow if he DID remember him, especially if Ferrie was just a figure head leader. In either event, it goes nowhere to show that LHO wasn't the only shooter in Dealey Plaza which is my point.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 03 Dec 2013, 04:38

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:Because David Ferrie interestingly claimed he had never met LHO. It would be hard to be a squadron leader over someone for some time and then forget their name and face, wouldn't it? Someone that forgetful would never be a squadron leader in the first place, surely. And all the other squadron members seem to be able to remember both people quite clearly. Reasonableness test applies again — a test which defines all judicial reasoning of which you seem unduly suspicious.

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. According to his mother and friend, he went 2 or 3 times, 4 at most when he was 15. He was quiet and sat off to the side. Ferrie, as Captain, rarely participated in those meetings. It is my experience that it would have been quite the opposite and that it would have been surprising to the highest raised eyebrow if he DID remember him, especially if Ferrie was just a figure head leader. In either event, it goes nowhere to show that LHO wasn't the only shooter in Dealey Plaza which is my point.

Interesting. Every other member of the squadron contacted remembers them both. It's a squadron leader's job to acquaint themselves with everyone by name, of course.

I don't see in that photo a 'Captain' standing off to one side as a figurehead, I see a bunch of guys having a BBQ or similar in a social setting. And David Ferrie had a predilection to get quite 'close' to young males too of course. So are we going to believe Profwag's version or our own lyin' eyes?

There are other eyewitness accounts that report someone matching Ferrie's description travelling to a funeral in Canada at about the time of the assassination and discussing the instability of LHO at first hand, if they are credible.

And Judith Vary Baker (author of 'Me & Lee – How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald') claims that David Ferrie and LHO associated regularly as an eyewitness. http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com.au/2011 ... nt-in.html
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 03 Dec 2013, 06:03

Methinks the powers that be protest too much???


REASON #8: Film producer Nigel Turner had successfully presented six documentaries in the popular series, The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a secure fixture on The History Channel that ran more than two decades. On the recommendation of known CIA asset Gerry Hemming, Turner investigated Baker and her witnesses for over a year. He photographed much of her evidence. He filmed her for 38 hours and matched 55 hours of her spoken testimony taken months earlier on a tape recorder with her filmed testimony. He had witnesses Baker knew nothing about verifying many of her statements. Turner was contracted by The History Channel to produce two more documentaries in the popular series--The Smoking Guns, and The Guilty Men--but requested and received permission (and then filmed) a third segment – The Love Affair, about Oswald and Baker’s romance and clandestine activities together in New Orleans, and their continuing relationship until Oswald’s death two days after Kennedy’s assassination. But Turner got too close to the truth, and all hell broke loose, destroying his series.

a) The Love Affair was the first and only time in Turner’s series where only one person–-Baker--was featured for the entire documentary. Though banned in America, it is currently an underground favorite on YouTube and is a popular underground film overseas.
b) Living witness statements supporting Baker’s testimony were illegally withheld by a third hostile party who essentially stole the videotapes. They were later recovered, but were not included in the documentary. There may have been plans to produce a sequel to the documentary with witnesses.
c) There was an outcry from Official Version Oswald-did-it important people, such as former President Ford, Jack Valenti and Mrs. Lyndon Johnson and her friends, over the new documentaries, and suddenly, three were banned, though the series was supposed to run for nine years.
d) Over 50,000 copies--prepaid--were destroyed and money returned, as a board of historians were called together by The History Channel to pronounce the documentaries falsely incriminating of former President Lyndon Johnson, who is clearly indicated as ruthless and involved. However, NONE of the historians met with or conferred with ANY of the witnesses, including Baker, nor did they look at ANY evidence whatsoever. This was the first documentary ever banned by The History Channel, or by anyone, so far as we are aware. In 2007, The History Channel lampooned Baker’s testimony.
e) Nigel Turner was systematically maligned on the Internet and has been incommunicado since 2004.
f) Baker was systematically maligned on the internet with big, impressive websites against her, and with newsgroup posts creating lies (such as that Baker claimed to be of Russian nobility, or that she said she was offered $600,000 for her story by a tabloid, or that she was a close friend of Dr. Suess, that Liberace learned how to play the piano on her father’s piano, and other ridiculous statements ‘proving’ she was non-credible!). Other statements claiming to be Baker’s flooded newsgroups, ruining her reputation. Arrest threats, job loss, and death threats began to plague her life.


http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com.au/2010 ... -vary.html
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 03 Dec 2013, 10:28

SydneyPSIder wrote:
And Judith Vary Baker (author of 'Me & Lee – How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald') claims that David Ferrie and LHO associated regularly as an eyewitness. http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com.au/2011 ... nt-in.html

The credibility of Judith Baker that CTers take so seriously and use so often just tickles me. She has more different stories that contradict other versions that it's really a shame. Again, doesn't have anything to do with LHO not being the lone gunman in Dealey Plaza. I'm still waiting on any hard, credible evidence that LHO was not the lone gunman.
The closest we've come is Officer Baker and Roy Truly seeing Oswald about a minute and a half after the shooting and whether or not he was holding a Coke.
Speaking of Officer Baker, if one believes his testimony, which I think is fairly credible, he heard 3 shots, spread fairly evenly apart, from the area of the TSBD and pigeons flying off the roof.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 03 Dec 2013, 10:47

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:
And Judith Vary Baker (author of 'Me & Lee – How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald') claims that David Ferrie and LHO associated regularly as an eyewitness. http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com.au/2011 ... nt-in.html

The credibility of Judith Baker that CTers take so seriously and use so often just tickles me. She has more different stories that contradict other versions that it's really a shame. Again, doesn't have anything to do with LHO not being the lone gunman in Dealey Plaza. I'm still waiting on any hard, credible evidence that LHO was not the lone gunman.
The closest we've come is Officer Baker and Roy Truly seeing Oswald about a minute and a half after the shooting and whether or not he was holding a Coke.
Speaking of Officer Baker, if one believes his testimony, which I think is fairly credible, he heard 3 shots, spread fairly evenly apart, from the area of the TSBD and pigeons flying off the roof.

hmm, interesting about JVB. She claims a bunch of things, such as being LHO's lover. I would assume this was true? Why would her stories keep changing? Where can you show this has happened? She debunks a debunker on the link I've supplied, where the debunker is a very suspicious character indeed.

You seem to have been doing some past research on this, I hadn't even registered JVB until just now.

There is some hard, credible evidence in the bullets and cartridges recovered, apparently, in that the 'official' fragments and entire bullets etc could not have been the bullets used, apart from the impossibility of the magic bullet theory itself, but I will need to dig around to pull in that info and analysis.

For the 4th or 5th time, you still haven't explained the Secret Service stand-down and strange motorcycle escort configuration going into Dealey Plaza, which just happened to co-incide with LHO's placement.

Then there was Malcolm Wallace's fingerprint found on a box in the sniper's nest on the 6th floor of the depository.

Further, as Jack Ruby himself points out in his testimony, if LHO got a job in the depository some 3 weeks before JFK's trip was even planned, how could he have known 1) the President was coming to Dallas at all, and 2) that the route would change to go through Dealey Plaza due to a cancellation of one venue and selecting another. It would be impossible for LHO to have known about any of that and then travel back in time to get the depository job and set himself up?

Continually repeating that you "haven't seen any evidence there was anyone but LHO as a shooter" doesn't really cut it. One might suspect that if there was a broader conspiracy to assassinate the president, they would not have just trusted LHO to get all the shots off. (And, anyway, his sole role was to be expended as a manipulated patsy, ideally to be conveniently killed in the ensuing chase.) Especially with the number of bullets clearly used, including ones that hit the curb, the car's trim, the car's windscreen, the governor of texas and several places on the president, including what appears to be a frangible bullet from the front that LHO could not have been packing. Odd also that LBJ chose to ride in a completely different car out of harm's way when a politician's normal instinct would have been to have the relatively unpopular Pres in that state and the popular local boy VP riding in the same car. LBJ had been picked in the first place to win the southern vote, no other reason.

So you have to explain all that, plus how LHO mastered time travel, for your 'skeptical' analysis to be convincing. Slurring authors non-substantively who knew LHO closely and personally doesn't cut it either.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 06 Dec 2013, 21:34

SydneyPSIder wrote:For the 4th or 5th time, you still haven't explained the Secret Service stand-down and strange motorcycle escort configuration going into Dealey Plaza, which just happened to co-incide with LHO's placement.

I'm sorry I've appeared to overlook this, but I've been trying to find some credible information either way. This subject appears to have many different aspects to it. Some say JFK himself told people to back off, but I'm not so certain about that and I doubt he, himself, made any decisions on his personal security.
My thoughts on the subject are that if they had 4 or 40 motorcycles on the route or more agents surrounding the limo, it wouldn't have stopped a bullet coming from the 6th floor. A lot of people put credence on the bubble top removal, but I don't. It was glass and not bullet proof. The bubble top was used ONLY for weather purposes. I do believe that the trip to Dallas was for campaigning purposes and Kennedy needed votes from the Dallas people. His visibility was of the utmost importance to a re-election. Could one, high-level person in the Secret Service have been involved in a conspiracy? Possibly. No evidence has ever been found to substantially support that however. Could several FBI, Dallas Police, and Secret Service agents who were assigned to pre-survey the motorcade route have purposefully left a wide open shot in Dealey Plaza? I rather doubt it. Not several people from different agencies.
Bottom line, and sorry to keep repeating myself, but again, the conspiracy theory of a secret service stand down does not prove one way or the other that LHO was or was not the lone gunman that day.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 08 Dec 2013, 12:59

ProfWag v. Jesse Ventura....

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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 08 Dec 2013, 13:28

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:For the 4th or 5th time, you still haven't explained the Secret Service stand-down and strange motorcycle escort configuration going into Dealey Plaza, which just happened to co-incide with LHO's placement.

I'm sorry I've appeared to overlook this, but I've been trying to find some credible information either way. This subject appears to have many different aspects to it. Some say JFK himself told people to back off, but I'm not so certain about that and I doubt he, himself, made any decisions on his personal security.
My thoughts on the subject are that if they had 4 or 40 motorcycles on the route or more agents surrounding the limo, it wouldn't have stopped a bullet coming from the 6th floor.

A good spurious argument of convenience once again.

If they had a number of assassins lined up on the grassy knoll and possibly in a stormwater drain, then a normal police escort would have very much got in the way. Same as for any shot from a crowd. You're saying that almost as though normal protocol is to just do anything or nothing as you never know when a shot will come from a 6th floor window.

Further, the Secret Service guys were ordered to stand down from the BACK of the limo where they WOULD have got in the way of shots from the 6th floor or possibly even the Dal-Tex building beside it. Further, as Jesse Ventura points out in the above video, there were screening trees in LHO's putative line of sight from the 6th floor making 2-3 accurate shots in 6 seconds next to impossible, especially with that particular putative model of single shot rifle.

The diversionary explanations from ProfWag are getting increasingly implausible, they usually start to lapse into the realms of complete improbability before long.

A lot of people put credence on the bubble top removal, but I don't. It was glass and not bullet proof. The bubble top was used ONLY for weather purposes.

Glass could still deflect an otherwise accurate lethal shot though, and make it non-lethal. Especially a frangible bullet. And physics tells us that a bullet hitting glass will transfer a % of its energy to getting through the glass, thus making it less lethal.

I do believe that the trip to Dallas was for campaigning purposes and Kennedy needed votes from the Dallas people. His visibility was of the utmost importance to a re-election. Could one, high-level person in the Secret Service have been involved in a conspiracy? Possibly. No evidence has ever been found to substantially support that however.

Any number could.

Bottom line, and sorry to keep repeating myself, but again, the conspiracy theory of a secret service stand down does not prove one way or the other that LHO was or was not the lone gunman that day.

The above discussion in the last couple of posts suggests why. It's hard to decisively 'prove' something when evidence is fabricated or distorted or removed and official investigations are suppressed or corrupted, now isn't it? If you can't trust the FBI or the police or the judiciary, or the judiciary are honest but obstructed, then how is it ever possible to definitely prove what happened? All we have are some very well-founded suspicions and likelihoods based on the evidence.

And you've skirted around the time travel question this time. And the David Ferrie links, the CIA handlers, etc etc. And the Coke.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 17 Dec 2013, 08:15

Just noticed this pic at random of the 'interesting' police escort in a kind of flying V behind the rear wheel of the presidential limo on that day. The cops look to be more interested in 'protecting' the Secret Service guys in the car behind, lol. Oh, the ironing.

Notice the hand rails on the rear of the car where the Secret Service agents were instructed to step off just prior to entering the Plaza. A very 'naked' President indeed. Who could have suspected at that moment that a crazed lone gunman was waiting on the 6th floor to take a shot? Having obtained a job in the building several weeks before the Presidential visit to Dallas was even known to the public, let alone a last minute route change to go through the plaza and take a slow hard right turn.

Note just how exposed the President is in that pic, it couldn't have been more contrived with 20:20 hindsight.

Image

This story is about one of JFK's mistresses who was actively investigating the event possibly being wacked by the CIA:

Book claims JFK's mistress was assassinated by the CIA because she knew too much about his assassination
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 21 Dec 2013, 16:54

Interesting to think what happened after the JFK assassination. JFK had sacked Allen Dulles, head of the CIA, who bizarrely (or perhaps not so bizarrely) was asked to sit on the Warren Commission, JFK had actually been agitating for quite some time in Congress about the US losing the space race to Russia, and had shown scant real regard or action for the civil rights movement in practice. He was going to pull out of the Vietnamese involvement also, and 'smash the CIA into a million pieces' as he distrusted it as a rogue organisation. Which it was, and still is.

So what happened after JFK? The moon missions continued, although it is arguable the results were faked for public consumption, as it was technically too difficult to get there safely with the technology of the day. The war effort in Vietnam was catastrophically redoubled. Some civil rights bills were passed under LBJ where JFK had been lukewarm. Gerald Ford was on the Warren Commission investigating JFK's death. By 1974 he had become President (!?) and appointed GHWB as head of the CIA (!!??), a supposed civilian who ostensibly could have known nothing about running such a govt outfit, in 1975. Of course, Ford was effectively filling in after the demise of the corrupt Nixon administration, and was unelected as both VP and POTUS. One of his acts was to pardon Nixon. By 1975 the Apollo missions were over, and so 'coincidentally' was the overt military involvement in Vietnam. GHWB then went on to force his way onto Reagan's ticket as his running mate. Reagan was apparently subjected to harassment to add him to the ticket, and advised that this would leave the CIA running the US. Reagan managed to survive an assassination attempt where no bullets were discovered in his body -- where the putative assassin was known to the Bushes -- thus preventing GHWB from becoming the next President on the death of Reagan. GHWB was later selected as the Republican presidential candidate and won the election. Fast forward past Clinton to 2000 and GWB is made president in a strange election that had signs of rigging. After 9 months of virtual vacation by the lame duck president, the unusual events of 9/11 occurred, the official explanation for which violates the laws of physics, common sense and probability. The same election rigging events occurred again in 2004. The Patriot Act was brought in, and the internet and phone snooping powers of the NSA greatly augmented. The CIA and FBI are still rogue organisations. &c &c.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 25 Dec 2013, 19:17

SydneyPSIder wrote:Just noticed this pic at random of the 'interesting' police escort in a kind of flying V behind the rear wheel of the presidential limo on that day. The cops look to be more interested in 'protecting' the Secret Service guys in the car behind, lol. Oh, the ironing.

I'm really not sure what your point is. There could have been 50 Secret Service Agents around the vehicle, on the back bumper, or wherever, but they wouldn't have been able to get in the way of a bullet coming from an angle from the 6th Floor. The only thing that would have protected him would have been a cover over the vehicle which is an entirely different topic altogether.
Once again, the evidence presented doesn't have anything to do with LHO being the only person doing the shooting or that it wasn't from the 6th Floor of the TSBD.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 25 Dec 2013, 19:18

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:Just noticed this pic at random of the 'interesting' police escort in a kind of flying V behind the rear wheel of the presidential limo on that day. The cops look to be more interested in 'protecting' the Secret Service guys in the car behind, lol. Oh, the ironing.

I'm really not sure what your point is. There could have been 50 Secret Service Agents around the vehicle, on the back bumper, or wherever, but they wouldn't have been able to get in the way of a bullet coming from an angle from the 6th Floor. The only thing that would have protected him would have been a cover over the vehicle which is an entirely different topic altogether.
Once again, the evidence presented doesn't have anything to do with LHO being the only person doing the shooting or that it wasn't from the 6th Floor of the TSBD.

We've already had that discussion several times. Your arguments don't hold water.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 29 Dec 2013, 05:22

SydneyPSIder wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:Just noticed this pic at random of the 'interesting' police escort in a kind of flying V behind the rear wheel of the presidential limo on that day. The cops look to be more interested in 'protecting' the Secret Service guys in the car behind, lol. Oh, the ironing.

I'm really not sure what your point is. There could have been 50 Secret Service Agents around the vehicle, on the back bumper, or wherever, but they wouldn't have been able to get in the way of a bullet coming from an angle from the 6th Floor. The only thing that would have protected him would have been a cover over the vehicle which is an entirely different topic altogether.
Once again, the evidence presented doesn't have anything to do with LHO being the only person doing the shooting or that it wasn't from the 6th Floor of the TSBD.

We've already had that discussion several times. Your arguments don't hold water.

We have? My memory is fading in my old age. Remind me again why people around the car could have protected shots coming from the 60 feet in the air? I truthfully don't remember that point being answered. I'm going to be in Dallas in a few weeks and will stop by again and see the angle for myself. Last time I was on the 6th floor was long before I realized there were some people who actually questioned the shooting.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 29 Dec 2013, 20:52

ProfWag wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:
ProfWag wrote:I'm really not sure what your point is. There could have been 50 Secret Service Agents around the vehicle, on the back bumper, or wherever, but they wouldn't have been able to get in the way of a bullet coming from an angle from the 6th Floor. The only thing that would have protected him would have been a cover over the vehicle which is an entirely different topic altogether.
Once again, the evidence presented doesn't have anything to do with LHO being the only person doing the shooting or that it wasn't from the 6th Floor of the TSBD.

We've already had that discussion several times. Your arguments don't hold water.

We have? My memory is fading in my old age. Remind me again why people around the car could have protected shots coming from the 60 feet in the air? I truthfully don't remember that point being answered. I'm going to be in Dallas in a few weeks and will stop by again and see the angle for myself. Last time I was on the 6th floor was long before I realized there were some people who actually questioned the shooting.

That assumes LHO mastered time travel, remember, to get the job in the depository weeks in advance of possibly knowing 1) about the visit, and 2) about the route. Then of course the route changed at the last minute to an alternative poorly secured venue, the car did a >90 deg turn entering the plaza and slowing down which goes against all secret service motorcade protocol. People at the top had to set this up. Then you remember LHO avowing to the world that he was a patsy, saying 'now they will know who I am' sotto voce meaning he thought he was some sort of valued undercover intelligence operative up until that time, Jack Ruby's later testimony that he was just a puppet of some very powerful people charged to assassinate LHO in turn, etc.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 29 Dec 2013, 21:42

This is a segment from Geraldo Rivera's late-night ABC-TV talk show "Good Night America" (March 6, 1975), where Abraham Zapruder's famous home movie depicting President John F. Kennedy's assassination in graphic detail is shown to an American audience for the very first time. Robert Groden is one of Rivera's guests.



Looks like they had it more or less figured out by '75, then there were Jim Garrison's investigations and suspicions of course throughout the 60s.

LHO had an FBI and a CIA no (as an employee, not as a wacko subject to be watched.)

"80% of witnesses said they heard shots from the grassy knoll" and that's where the crowd was running to after the shooting.
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