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What's on the table?

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: What's on the table?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 11 Oct 2012, 20:37

really? wrote:
Misha wrote:Thanks for replying, NinjaPuppy. Am I clear that you do not believe that PNAC's stated agenda (goal) was not "to promote American global leadership" under the guise of military strength and moral clarity? Did we not get military strength and moral clarity with the trumped up WMD lies concerning Iraq?


How do you know these allegations of WMD were lies ? Are you privy to intelligence information the rest of us are not ?

There was tons of 'intelligence information', perhaps the US mainstream media weren't letting on in the closed information US space. Hans Blik was saying it over and over again to the UN. It was known that the UN had destroyed all of Hussein's stockpiles some years earlier, from starter materials sold to Iraq primarily by the US and UK, by the way. Several inspections in Iraq turned up nothing. We were getting told overseas there was nothing, we were watching Colin Powell's obvious charade appalled, apparently Americans for domestic consumption were told something else. Nobody believed Powell's fairy stories except other Americans, it would seem.

Hussein gassed the Kurds over their separatist ambitions in the time that the US had supplied the materials and Hussein was known to possess them at that time. The US and UK supplied the materials largely in the perennial chess game of offsetting various groups and enemies against each other to their advantage. e.g. the US supported Hussein originally for oil and to encourage him to attack Iran. Prior to that, the US supported extremist Muslim groups in Iran around the time of the deposal of the Shah as they would fight communist Russia on one border, and indeed these groups did major purges of left wing, secular and communist-sympathetic families in Iran at the time, before the US hostage incident.
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 11 Oct 2012, 21:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 11 Oct 2012, 20:39

Earlier programs were 'the Domino Theory' (aka 'Reds Under the Beds') as US policy that lead to participating in the war in Vietnam. As well as propping up fiendish and oppressive right wing regimes anywhere in the world as long as they opposed Communism and nearby Communist countries or those threatening to adopt a communist or socialist system. This seemed primarily because the elites of the US were afraid of losing their priviliege if ordinary workers figured out they should get a bigger slice of the pie, so a propaganda war was started.

This included propping up and supporting govts in Japan (a former enemy, now an ally against Russia, already a threatening force at the end of WWII), South Korea, the Phillippines and Indonesia as supposed 'dams against Communism', encircling China and south east Asian countries threatening to become Communist. Singapore and HK remained listening posts. Obviously also covert programs were run inside many countries to undermine any groups the CIA did not like. A lot of extreme false flag operations were also run, such as performing bombings and framing various groups for them.

Another target was South America -- volumes of books need to be written about that one. Everything from the SOA to Chiquita bananas, the Sandanistas, Pinochet, etc etc etc.
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 12 Oct 2012, 01:01

SydneyPSIder wrote:
really? wrote:
Misha wrote:Thanks for replying, NinjaPuppy. Am I clear that you do not believe that PNAC's stated agenda (goal) was not "to promote American global leadership" under the guise of military strength and moral clarity? Did we not get military strength and moral clarity with the trumped up WMD lies concerning Iraq?


How do you know these allegations of WMD were lies ? Are you privy to intelligence information the rest of us are not ?

There was tons of 'intelligence information', perhaps the US mainstream media weren't letting on in the closed information US space. Hans Blik was saying it over and over again to the UN. It was known that the UN had destroyed all of Hussein's stockpiles some years earlier, from starter materials sold to Iraq primarily by the US and UK, by the way. Several inspections in Iraq turned up nothing. We were getting told overseas there was nothing, we were watching Colin Powell's obvious charade appalled, apparently Americans for domestic consumption were told something else. Nobody believed Powell's fairy stories except other Americans, it would seem.

Hussein gassed the Kurds over their separatist ambitions in the time that the US had supplied the materials and Hussein was known to possess them at that time. The US and UK supplied the materials largely in the perennial chess game of offsetting various groups and enemies against each other to their advantage. e.g. the US supported Hussein originally for oil and to encourage him to attack Iran. Prior to that, the US supported extremist Muslim groups in Iran around the time of the deposal of the Shah as they would fight communist Russia on one border, and indeed these groups did major purges of left wing, secular and communist-sympathetic families in Iran at the time, before the US hostage incident.


Agreed, SydneyPSIder. CIA analyst Stephen Pelletier talked about this at the Army War College and other venues concerning the gassing. Both Iran and Iraq were using gas in their war against each other. According to Pelletier the people in Halabja were running away from the gas coming from the Iran side. And, that the gas was cyanide based which the Iranians had. The Iraqi's had CS gas and was supplied by the Americans. The major media has neglected the context of the gassing in the lead up for a war with Iraq. Another instance of propaganda for a "program" in the works.


Search Results

[PDF]
Rush to war with Iraq built on lies and deception - Assassination ...
www.assassinationscience.com/liesdeception.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Feb 2, 2003 – Iran--were actually killed by Iranian gas. According to Stephen Pelletier, who was a senior CIA political analyst on Iraq, the dead Kurds had ...
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 12 Oct 2012, 01:08

SydneyPSIder wrote:Earlier programs were 'the Domino Theory' (aka 'Reds Under the Beds') as US policy that lead to participating in the war in Vietnam. As well as propping up fiendish and oppressive right wing regimes anywhere in the world as long as they opposed Communism and nearby Communist countries or those threatening to adopt a communist or socialist system. This seemed primarily because the elites of the US were afraid of losing their priviliege if ordinary workers figured out they should get a bigger slice of the pie, so a propaganda war was started.

This included propping up and supporting govts in Japan (a former enemy, now an ally against Russia, already a threatening force at the end of WWII), South Korea, the Phillippines and Indonesia as supposed 'dams against Communism', encircling China and south east Asian countries threatening to become Communist. Singapore and HK remained listening posts. Obviously also covert programs were run inside many countries to undermine any groups the CIA did not like. A lot of extreme false flag operations were also run, such as performing bombings and framing various groups for them.

Another target was South America -- volumes of books need to be written about that one. Everything from the SOA to Chiquita bananas, the Sandanistas, Pinochet, etc etc etc.


As for South America, specifically, this was called "Operation Condor." Another "program."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 16 Oct 2012, 22:06

Misha wrote:
SydneyPSIder wrote:Earlier programs were 'the Domino Theory' (aka 'Reds Under the Beds') as US policy that lead to participating in the war in Vietnam. As well as propping up fiendish and oppressive right wing regimes anywhere in the world as long as they opposed Communism and nearby Communist countries or those threatening to adopt a communist or socialist system. This seemed primarily because the elites of the US were afraid of losing their priviliege if ordinary workers figured out they should get a bigger slice of the pie, so a propaganda war was started.

This included propping up and supporting govts in Japan (a former enemy, now an ally against Russia, already a threatening force at the end of WWII), South Korea, the Phillippines and Indonesia as supposed 'dams against Communism', encircling China and south east Asian countries threatening to become Communist. Singapore and HK remained listening posts. Obviously also covert programs were run inside many countries to undermine any groups the CIA did not like. A lot of extreme false flag operations were also run, such as performing bombings and framing various groups for them.

Another target was South America -- volumes of books need to be written about that one. Everything from the SOA to Chiquita bananas, the Sandanistas, Pinochet, etc etc etc.


As for South America, specifically, this was called "Operation Condor." Another "program."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor


hmm, yes, anyone daring to join a trade union and stand up for themselves -- we won't be having any of that... Generally, if you're of European stock, you're OK, if you're Indian or mestiza, not so good...
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 28 Jan 2013, 22:42

Here's another "program" (Conspiracy) which is self-evident and well documented. I am currently reading the book "Betrayed" by Joseph D. Douglass, JR. Dr. Douglass was a former National Security Analyst. Please read Colonel Millard A. Peck's resignation from the DIA. Peck's letter is in the Appendix of "Betrayed."

http://www.gx2527leftinvietnam.com/resign.html

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, guys.
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 29 Jan 2013, 08:22

Misha wrote:Here's another "program" (Conspiracy) which is self-evident and well documented. I am currently reading the book "Betrayed" by Joseph D. Douglass, JR. Dr. Douglass was a former National Security Analyst. Please read Colonel Millard A. Peck's resignation from the DIA. Peck's letter is in the Appendix of "Betrayed."

http://www.gx2527leftinvietnam.com/resign.html

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, guys.

hmm, interesting. Is the resignation letter legit? The 'head of the National League of Families' sounds an interesting character.

The whole Vietnam MIA thing could just be a govt seeking to avoid embarrassment, this is what govts do. I always marvel at the naivety of many people in uniform who have been promoted often to quite high levels. Edwardian notions of duty and honour as discourses are of course quite laughable.

However, in thinking through the entire 9/11 or Vietnam or foreign policy by stealth agenda, I've started thinking about where the locus of power must lie. It doesn't seem to be the Prez, it doesn't seem to lie in the armed forces at any level, unlike 'the generals' in other countries who get ambitious and take the place over by force, and there seem to be elements in the FBI and CIA who have no idea why they are receiving the orders they are. Who is calling the shots? Are there competing factions of corrupt vested interests? Is there a 'govt within the govt' as OBL put it, who are an abiding force who remain year after year despite changes of political party and President? What is the nexus to large-scale corporate interests and other interests? Is it big oil barons with a Southern plantation mentality? Is it the Kochs and their ilk? Is it a bunch of billionaires and establishment families in general? Where do the Straussians fit into this picture also? For instance, there seems to be a clear alignment of interests in 9/11 with the CIA, FBI, the armed forces, certain Republican interests and other interests, who easily co-opted and controlled the machinery of govt to create a false flag operation and then conceal it. The corruption of NIST etc can only have happened at the highest levels. Clearly govts tend to attract a lot of duplicitous and psychopathic types, no question, they thrive in the environment. It's a breeding ground for sociopaths and actors and skilled liars.

I mean to assess this in a realistic way, not with reference to Bilderbergers, Illuminati, Skull and Bones and shape-shifting reptiles -- altho there may be something to the Bilderberger and Skull and Bones networks to some extent. For instance, it's been suggested that there is a core group of people in the FBI and CIA who are calling the shots.

As a clarifier, can anyone advise how agencies like the FBI and CIA and all the rest are run with respect to the Congress? Surely the lower house in the US Westminister system forms an executive by a majority party process, then certain people in the Congress are chosen to run various govt depts? What's with the 'secretary' system, also? UK and Oz and other systems appoint MPs to be 'Ministers' to their depts and the depts say 'how high?' when the Ministers says jump. Do US agencies have more autonomy and continuity through successive changes of govt than this? That would allow a corrupt core to fester and breed with connections to outside influence, and even be co-opted say by the Republicans even with a Democrat majority forming an executive.

See for instance also:
Conservative Southern Values Revived: How a Brutal Strain of American Aristocrats Have Come to Rule America
http://www.alternet.org/story/156071/co ... le_america
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 29 Jan 2013, 22:52

Hi SydneyPSider,

Go to this link to read the entire transcript of the Dornan committee. You'll see Colonel Millard Peck referenced:

http://archive.org/stream/accountingfor ... t_djvu.txt
Misha
 
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 30 Jan 2013, 02:57

SydneyPSIder wrote:
Misha wrote:Here's another "program" (Conspiracy) which is self-evident and well documented. I am currently reading the book "Betrayed" by Joseph D. Douglass, JR. Dr. Douglass was a former National Security Analyst. Please read Colonel Millard A. Peck's resignation from the DIA. Peck's letter is in the Appendix of "Betrayed."

http://www.gx2527leftinvietnam.com/resign.html

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, guys.

hmm, interesting. Is the resignation letter legit? The 'head of the National League of Families' sounds an interesting character.

The whole Vietnam MIA thing could just be a govt seeking to avoid embarrassment, this is what govts do. I always marvel at the naivety of many people in uniform who have been promoted often to quite high levels. Edwardian notions of duty and honour as discourses are of course quite laughable.

However, in thinking through the entire 9/11 or Vietnam or foreign policy by stealth agenda, I've started thinking about where the locus of power must lie. It doesn't seem to be the Prez, it doesn't seem to lie in the armed forces at any level, unlike 'the generals' in other countries who get ambitious and take the place over by force, and there seem to be elements in the FBI and CIA who have no idea why they are receiving the orders they are. Who is calling the shots? Are there competing factions of corrupt vested interests? Is there a 'govt within the govt' as OBL put it, who are an abiding force who remain year after year despite changes of political party and President? What is the nexus to large-scale corporate interests and other interests? Is it big oil barons with a Southern plantation mentality? Is it the Kochs and their ilk? Is it a bunch of billionaires and establishment families in general? Where do the Straussians fit into this picture also? For instance, there seems to be a clear alignment of interests in 9/11 with the CIA, FBI, the armed forces, certain Republican interests and other interests, who easily co-opted and controlled the machinery of govt to create a false flag operation and then conceal it. The corruption of NIST etc can only have happened at the highest levels. Clearly govts tend to attract a lot of duplicitous and psychopathic types, no question, they thrive in the environment. It's a breeding ground for sociopaths and actors and skilled liars.

I mean to assess this in a realistic way, not with reference to Bilderbergers, Illuminati, Skull and Bones and shape-shifting reptiles -- altho there may be something to the Bilderberger and Skull and Bones networks to some extent. For instance, it's been suggested that there is a core group of people in the FBI and CIA who are calling the shots.

As a clarifier, can anyone advise how agencies like the FBI and CIA and all the rest are run with respect to the Congress? Surely the lower house in the US Westminister system forms an executive by a majority party process, then certain people in the Congress are chosen to run various govt depts? What's with the 'secretary' system, also? UK and Oz and other systems appoint MPs to be 'Ministers' to their depts and the depts say 'how high?' when the Ministers says jump. Do US agencies have more autonomy and continuity through successive changes of govt than this? That would allow a corrupt core to fester and breed with connections to outside influence, and even be co-opted say by the Republicans even with a Democrat majority forming an executive.

See for instance also:
Conservative Southern Values Revived: How a Brutal Strain of American Aristocrats Have Come to Rule America
http://www.alternet.org/story/156071/co ... le_america


Hi SydneyPSider,

I think the best way to attempt an answer your astute observations is to post this passage from Douglass' book betrayed. Please Google Lt. Commander William "Chip" Beck and John Patrick Quirk of IRG to get some background.

The gist of what is below is that John Quirk employed a James Robert Davis (Senior Russian defector) who was vetted by the CIA to help find POW/MIA personnel from the wars. Lt. Commander Beck from DPMO (Defense POW/MIA Office) was also involved with Quirk because of his extensive intelligence and operational experience. Page. 316 to 319 from Douglass' book "Betrayed":

...First, there is a strong tendency to view such CIA activities, as rogue cowboy operations designed to further some personal agendas. This was why Dornan called the closed hearings, so that the CIA office of their Inspector General would have the opportunity to learn first hand what some of their employees were doing. When one steps back, however, and takes a strategic view, a very different picture emerges -- one in which a wide variety of CIA officials are involved, including case officers, section and division chiefs, senior officials, retired officials, and officials on assignment to other agencies. In this one sabotage operation alone, over 10 CIA officials were active, including two senior officials who visited Dornan prior to the hearings in an effort to discredit Quirk. Conclusion: This is no rogue cowboy operation. Rather, it is an officially sanctioned and supported sabotage operation.
As this picture begins to take shape, a variety of related pictures suddenly come into focus. First, the operation almost certainly would have been approved at the White House. Second, the Justice Department, which helped accelerate Davis' application for citizenship and would have been involved in approving the large money transfers to Davis, likely was informed. Third, of specially importance, because of the sums of money involved, the operation would have been known to the relevant key Congressional officials on the Senate and House intelligence oversight committees, logically either the committee chairman or their staff directors.
This re-introduces an earlier question. Why was a Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs even constituted in 1992? The POW/MIA problem is dominated by intelligence issues. Thus, it falls squarely within the two Congressional intelligence oversight committees, which had all the clearances, liaisons, and facilities for handling classified sensitive intelligence -- unless the objective was to hobble the investigation from the beginning and to enable the intelligence community to run the various investigators around in circles. This also may explain why important Defense Department documentation that private investigator Roger Hall was searching for was no where to be found at the Pentagon. It was in storage at the Senate Intelligence Committee; perhaps so that it could not be found by investigators like Hall.
Attempts to excuse White House-directed CIA operations as "rogue" operations are not unusual. An excellent example is presented in Richard Schultz's book "The Secret War Against Hanoi." Covert operatios against Hanoi, he documents, were closely supervised by the White House. However, at the time of congressional investigations of the CIA in the mid-1970s, "the supposition that the agency had run operations without the knowledge of presidents was widely decreed. In the case of North Vietnam, the rogue thesis cannot be sustained. Kennedy was behind the whole affair...LBJ insisted on even more oversight and, consequently SOG became a micromanaged organizations during his presidency...Since SOG, White House oversight has remained unchanged for the same disparate reason -- interest and caution. Some presidents have shown more interest -- Reagan -- and other more caution -- Bush."
Another picture concerns the nature of Denial behavior. Both Beck and Quirk were concerned that Davis might be a double agent, a logical initial concern. However, the totality of facts, once again, point in a very different direction. There is the small matter of Davis' poor tradecraft that is inconsistent with his being a double agent. Obviously, Davis was not trying to hide his contacts to Moscow. Second, there is the equally crude CIA tradecraft in providing extensive details on Beck's clandestine operations to Davis -- a gross security and privacy violation -- and their efforts to quickly brief Dornan's closed door hearings. There are also the large sums of money provided to Davis, the fast-track process for granting him citizenship, and his subsequent job running a CIA proprietary.
When all these facts are considered as a whole, the image that begins to take shape is not one where Davis is a double agent but, rather, one that suggests a joint CIA-KGB operation in which Davis is playing two roles, one in serving the joint operation and a second covert one in serving KGB counter-intelligence. Its first task might well have been, to use Davis' own words, to avoid the surfacing of embarrassing information on POW/MIAs that would upset Russian-America relations which neither country wanted to happen.
Quirk was also able to track Davis' more interesting evening reports on Beck's and Quirk's activities to economic contacts in Moscow. In the case of Vietnam, the source of considerable pressure to sweep the whole POW mess under the rug is, as is well recognized, "business" interests. These pressures have been evidenced from the days of the Paris Peace Talks. They were especially strong during the Bush administration and were definitely present during the proceedings of the Senate Select Committee. All the Senators were sensitive to these business interests. The pressure is coordinated by various organizations, such as the US-USSR Trade and Economic Council.

Now "that's a lot of cheddar." Now that's a program. That's how the big secrets (Apollo, Russian POW/MIA abuse) are kept. "Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of commercial nations."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: What's on the table?

Postby Misha » 31 Jan 2013, 11:38

I finished Douglass' book "Betrayed." An excellent read. On to "Red Cocaine" by the same author.
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