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Do you believe that they really killed Bin Laden?

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 24 Jan 2013, 11:55

Arouet wrote:

"The best argument for Bin Laden not having been killed long ago is why would Al Qaeda go along with it? Wouldn't it be a great strike against America to show that they had lied? How do you get them to cooperate like that?"

That is a great succinct question, Arouet. Any thoughts on this guys? Off the top of my head I would think that if Bin Laden was dead soon after 9/11 Al Qaeda might have wanted to keep Osama's image alive to keep the Jihad going. Now if Al Qaeda can produce Osama's body or his DNA before an impartial [?] international tribunal then the we will know for certain. Like I said to you guys before. NYPD detectives are very suspect without a body.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Arouet » 24 Jan 2013, 12:14

I agree that the getting rid of the body was a terrible idea. Or if it was a good idea it should have been handled differently. And they should find a way to release the photos in some way.

But while its possible they would want to keep the image alive to keep the Jihad going, it's not like they couldn't get just as much if not more mileage out of a martyr. And the ability to embarass the americans I would think would be pretty hard to pass up.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 25 Jan 2013, 15:40

First of all, is there REALLY any such thing as Al Qaeda? They were originally a 'list' or 'database' of Mujahideen troops/militiamen trained by the US to fight the Russians in the new Great Game -- Al Qaeda is the CIA's list.

I don't believe they're all round the world, adopting the same convenient name. I believe they're an invention mostly. I also think/am sure that 7/7, Madrid and the Bali bombing were inside jobs, i.e. false flag operations. Further, a lot of the supposed extremist groups around the place are funded by sources opposite to whom you think in order to keep populations in fear and disorganised and fragmented.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 25 Jan 2013, 17:03

SydneyPSIder wrote:First of all, is there REALLY any such thing as Al Qaeda? They were originally a 'list' or 'database' of Mujahideen troops/militiamen trained by the US to fight the Russians in the new Great Game -- Al Qaeda is the CIA's list.

I don't believe they're all round the world, adopting the same convenient name. I believe they're an invention mostly. I also think/am sure that 7/7, Madrid and the Bali bombing were inside jobs, i.e. false flag operations. Further, a lot of the supposed extremist groups around the place are funded by sources opposite to whom you think in order to keep populations in fear and disorganised and fragmented.


Hi SydneyPSider,

Agreed. Al Qaeda originally was a database for collecting names for those participating and those causalities for the Afghanistan war. It appears that any group that does not conform to western and their allies agenda fall into this wholesale category presently. Jason Burke has written extensively on this in his books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Burke
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Arouet » 25 Jan 2013, 17:14

I'm not sure it really matters how we label it- there are people in these countries who would love to embarrass the US. Bin Laden would have been dealing with at least some of those people. When those people realised Bin Laden disappeared, they'd have a pretty good idea what happened. Now, perhaps they all decided to back up the US' plan, and go along with it for some reason, but that seems implausible to me. Possible, I guess.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 25 Jan 2013, 17:51

Arouet wrote:I'm not sure it really matters how we label it- there are people in these countries who would love to embarrass the US. Bin Laden would have been dealing with at least some of those people. When those people realised Bin Laden disappeared, they'd have a pretty good idea what happened. Now, perhaps they all decided to back up the US' plan, and go along with it for some reason, but that seems implausible to me. Possible, I guess.


Hi Arouet,

Again, I think your question is valid. Let me ask around on this and get various viewpoints. According to David Ray Griffin in his book on Osama Bin Laden it appears the intelligence community was split on whether he died soon after 9/11 versus the Pakistan raid. Some say he died from Kidney failure or the bombings on Tora Bora roughly a couple of months after 9/11.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 25 Jan 2013, 18:23

Arouet wrote:I'm not sure it really matters how we label it- there are people in these countries who would love to embarrass the US. Bin Laden would have been dealing with at least some of those people. When those people realised Bin Laden disappeared, they'd have a pretty good idea what happened. Now, perhaps they all decided to back up the US' plan, and go along with it for some reason, but that seems implausible to me. Possible, I guess.


"Bin Laden would have been dealing with at least some of those people."


Not verified. If you believe he was up to anything and not just an ex-CIA asset/patsy. His own remarks were that he was living in Afghanistan and obeys the laws of that land as a good Muslim, which do not allow such actions, and he tries not to tell a lie as a good Muslim.

And why would some of these countries want to embarrass the US, of all the countries there are? Because They Hate Our Freedom™? (This is for local consumption just in the US, of course, because as we all know no other OECD country is anywhere near as free as the US, although some are tempted to call it a police state when looking at the number of laws, police, continual surveillance and high incarceration rates compared to other OECD countries.)

http://www.amazon.com/Osama-Bin-Laden-D ... 1566567831

In his gripping new book, Griffin strikes at the root of this pretext for war by closely examining all the evidence that has come out since September 11, 2001, either indicating that bin Laden is still alive or that he is in fact dead. His conclusion is that bin Laden is certainly dead, and that in all likelihood he died in very late 2001. Griffin shows that many US experts in counterterrorism and counterinsurgency came to this very same conclusion long ago, but their views, which do not support the continuation of what President Obama, borrowing the term from Dick Cheney, calls "the long war," have received very little media attention. Were they to do so, one of the main props for the war regime would be undermined.

In Chapter 1, "Evidence that Osama bin Laden is Dead", Griffin surveys in detail the many different indications published in the major media in late 2001 and early 2002 that bin Laden had been very ill and had died. These included a December, 2001 video in which he appeared to be at death's door (as admitted by a Bush administration spokesperson), analyses by medical experts of the grave state of his health, the sudden and total cessation in December, 2001 of any surveillance intercepts of communications from him, and even reports of his funeral. In this early period, various high-level officials in the US and Pakistani governments, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and President Pervez Musharraf, speculated that he was dead. By mid-2002 many experts had concluded that he was dead, including FBI counterterrorism official Dale Watson, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, and Israeli intelligence officials. The conviction that he died in 2001 is held today by former intelligence operatives Robert Baer and Angelo Codevilla.

In Chapter 2, "Two Fake bin Laden Videos in 2001?", Griffin shows that two videos which purportedly showed bin Laden taking credit for the attacks of 9/11 and thus established his guilt for them, were not only very conveniently timed for the Bush and Blair administrations' legislative and military agendas, but also were highly suspect for other reasons. One of them was never actually released, but simply claimed by the Blair government. The other showed a bin Laden who did not physically resemble the genuine bin Laden of earlier videos, in which he in fact denied responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. Griffin presents strong arguments that both claimed videos were faked, suggests likely motivations behind such a risky undertaking, and cites the opinions of experts (including the FBI) who came to this conclusion long ago.

In Chapter 3, "Purported bin Laden Messages After 2001", Griffin argues that if fake bin Laden videos were produced in this early period, when he was probably still alive, then there is even stronger reason to be suspicious of "bin Laden videos" or other claimed "messages" that were released later, after all communications intercepts from him had ceased and many experts had concluded that he was dead. Yet, in subsequent years, a long series of such dubious "bin Laden messages" were released. Griffin presents an exhaustive survey of 19 of these, from an "email message" of March, 2002 to the "bin Laden audiotape" of January 14, 2009. For each and every one, Griffin identifies key indications of fakery or strong reasons to be suspicious of its authenticity. In the course of the discussion of the messages, he establishes that the technical capability to fabricate fake messages of the different types already existed.

In Chapter 4, Griffin turns to the important question "Who Might Have Been Motivated To Fabricate Messages?" He shows that the US military in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 employed a psychological operations unit to produce bogus evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, as a pretext for the invasion. The psyops unit produced a "letter" from a Jordanian in Iraq, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, that was then "intercepted", purportedly enroute to Al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan. The psyop was advanced after the invasion by the New York Times reporter Dexter Filkins, who wrote front-page stories presenting the "evidence" as genuine. Journalists at other organizations, including Newsweek magazine and The Telegraph of London, however, thought it highly likely at the time that the letter was bogus. Griffin concludes that the target of the psychological operation was the US public. He asks, could something very similar have been going on with the "bin Laden messages"? Does the US government desire to expand its war operations anywhere, say into the precise places it claims bin Laden is still living in? Based on the evidence Griffin presents, there is no reason to assume that comparable psyops would not be utilized to achieve this goal.

In Chapter 5, "The Convenient Timing of Many of the Messages", Griffin shows that another reason to suspect the inauthenticity of the "bin Laden messages" is that they frequently were released at key moments when they would benefit the Bush administration in the pursuit of particular objectives. In other words, the "messages" were almost always objectively detrimental to the enemies of the US, and beneficial to the Bush administration or the Blair government. Griffin lists 11 specific instances of this unusual characteristic of the "messages."
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 27 Jan 2013, 08:03

A pretty good breakdown, SydneyPSider. Again, I am highly suspicious of the "Zero Dark Thirty" raid which allegedly Killed Osama Bin Laden:

!) Pakistanis in general believe the man killed was not Osama but someone who looked like him (Yes, we have to take this with a grain of salt).
2) Osama's health before and two months after 9/11.
3) Pornography at the Osama compound. This goes against everything touted by Michael Scheuer's analysis of Bin Laden as a devout Muslim.
4) No body as my NYPD friends have remarked.
5) The fact that the NSA had tracked Bin Laden through his using INMARSAT as explained by James Bamford in his book Body of Secrets.
6) Death of around 18 to 20 Seal Team Six member who were involved in some capacity on the raid aboard an Army helicopter.
7) The proposition that we were coming up on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and that to pull out our troops without having succeeded in killing Bin Laden is disconcerting.

I can only look at these items as red flags.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Arouet » 27 Jan 2013, 09:36

There certainly are red flags. Whether legit or not it seems designed to raise such flags. That's actually the most curious thing to me. It's like they were trying to do just that.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 27 Jan 2013, 10:11

It's all very queer. The shots of barack and hillary and various flacks in the situation room earnestly studying something or other would therefore be contrived, and in fact they would supposedly all have to be in on the ruse, they couldn't do an upwards trick on the pres and secretary of state, surely? the mind boggles.

also something completely off track -- because of this thread i've started watching old video footage of OBL, and i've gotta say he strikes me as possibly being a bit light-footed despite all the alleged wives and kiddies... not that there's anything wrong with that...

then there is this character mark owen (/matt bissonnette) who claims to have flown on the mission and has published a book on it and is supposedly in no end of trouble over it. it's a very contrived setup by intelligence if this is all fake -- it's possible the book has been written as a cover and the whole thing has been sanctioned to lend credibility. mark/matt himself seems to be a bit of an inarticulate idiot in interviews, but that doesn't mean anything i suppose.

we're also supposed to believe obl had 3 wives and 17 kiddies or something living in the compound with a supposed 'command and control' room etc etc

the pseudosceps here generally haven't weighed in for a while, but they would be quite right in pointing to a 'body' of evidence in the foregoing -- either it's all a myth and a hoax and a massive amount of contrived intelligence or there is some legitimacy to the official story.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 27 Jan 2013, 17:48

Hi SydneyPSider, I am in italics

"It's all very queer. The shots of barack and hillary and various flacks in the situation room earnestly studying something or other would therefore be contrived, and in fact they would supposedly all have to be in on the ruse, they couldn't do an upwards trick on the pres and secretary of state, surely? the mind boggles."

This may not be the case, Sydney. In fact, they may have been duped and did not have a need to know. Yeah, compartmentalized Black Op not just against the alleged Osama, but the provisional government.



"then there is this character mark owen (/matt bissonnette) who claims to have flown on the mission and has published a book on it and is supposedly in no end of trouble over it. it's a very contrived setup by intelligence if this is all fake -- it's possible the book has been written as a cover and the whole thing has been sanctioned to lend credibility. mark/matt himself seems to be a bit of an inarticulate idiot in interviews, but that doesn't mean anything i suppose."

Another Black Op, perhaps. It reminds me of William Randolph Hearst"s comment to a reporter reporting on the Spanish American War: "You provide me with the pictures. I'll provide the war."
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 27 Jan 2013, 18:02

Misha wrote:Hi SydneyPSider, I am in italics

"It's all very queer. The shots of barack and hillary and various flacks in the situation room earnestly studying something or other would therefore be contrived, and in fact they would supposedly all have to be in on the ruse, they couldn't do an upwards trick on the pres and secretary of state, surely? the mind boggles."

This may not be the case, Sydney. In fact, they may have been duped and did not have a need to know. Yeah, compartmentalized Black Op not just against the alleged Osama, but the provisional government.



"then there is this character mark owen (/matt bissonnette) who claims to have flown on the mission and has published a book on it and is supposedly in no end of trouble over it. it's a very contrived setup by intelligence if this is all fake -- it's possible the book has been written as a cover and the whole thing has been sanctioned to lend credibility. mark/matt himself seems to be a bit of an inarticulate idiot in interviews, but that doesn't mean anything i suppose."

Another Black Op, perhaps. It reminds me of William Randolph Hearst"s comment to a reporter reporting on the Spanish American War: "You provide me with the pictures. I'll provide the war."


yeah, maybe. the supposed extrajudicial killing of obl by going into n pakistan is very suspicious -- surrounded by dozens of wives and kids like the von trapp family supposedly, all who survived while he was killed -- he didn't fight back and had sod-all guards, but had to be killed apparently -- as are the frequent drone strikes into n pakistan. surely any country would be a little antsy about drone strikes and military ops into its sovereign territory and would see it as an act of war and provocation? i suppose we're meant to believe imran khan and pervez musharraf are happy to have any ol' random attacks occurring over the border on their countrymen by a foreign power, because they're 'under-resourced in the war against terror' or something?

because of the illegality of the attacks under international law, which nobody protests much in the UN, nor does pakistan itself, makes me believe BHO knows more about this than he's letting on. remember pakistan is a nuclear weapons holder. it's no coincidence that the area under drone attack is the corridor intended for a pipeline for the west.

hmm, VERY timely: http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=193088

UN to probe legality of drone strikes in Pakistan

Around 20 to 30 strikes across the spectrum of countries will be studied to determine the level of civilians casualties, the identity of the targeted militants and the legality of the drone strikes, especially in countries which have not been declared conflicts zones by the UN. The inquiry will report to the UN general assembly in New York later this year. Depending on its findings, it may recommend further action. Emmerson has previously suggested that some drone attacks, particularly those known as “double tap” strikes where rescuers going to the aid of a first blast have become victims of a follow-up strike, could possibly constitute a “war crime”.

The inquiry will be co-ordinated through the reporter’s UN office in Geneva, and is the result of a request by several nations, including Pakistan and two permanent members of the UN security council. Pakistan’s government has continuously raised concerns, publicly, over drone strikes in its north-western tribal belt, citing a violation of sovereignty. The majority of attacks take place in North Waziristan. Staff in Geneva have already be-gun to examine details of individual drone strikes. Emmerson says that, when assembled, his dossier of evidence may not lead to direct “attribution of legal liability” but will enable him to seek a response from those states found to be responsible.

Although many US officials justify drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia as accept-able as part of the ‘War on Ter-ror’, others in the Washington administration have more recently acknowledged a need to provide legal justification to the international community. Emmerson told the Guardian: “One of the questions we will be looking at is whether, given the local demography, aerial attacks carry too high a risk of a disproportionate number of civilian casualties.”

Between June 2004 and September 2012, according to research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, drone strikes killed between 2,562 and 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom between 474 and 881 were civilians, including 176 children. In 2012 alone, 46 drone strikes took place in the country, according to Washington think-tank, the New America Foundation. This “drone war” is officially classified, and the US does not provide any information on the strikes.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 28 Jan 2013, 09:11

Another 'alternative hypothesis': if you disregard the entire contents and evidence and shared and leaked intelligence of David Ray Griffin's book, and just go on the easily viewable evidence of the alleged 'OBL' videos since 2001 which seem to portray a fat Indian guy, and a right-hander wearing a gold ring, with indistinct and muddy audio, then the following scenario could be possible: OBL was still alive up until 2011, but he was either extremely ill or absent from the scene or on the run, so he didn't make any more videos after 2001, hence US or other interests found it necessary to concoct a few. He was then available to be hunted down and killed, extrajudicially, without trial, by illegal incursion into another sovereign country not declared a conflict zone by the UN, although he hadn't done anything since 2001 except protest his innocence on a video, and it still remained to be proven that he somehow 'masterminded' the events of 9/11. I suppose it's possible.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby Misha » 28 Jan 2013, 11:35

SydneyPSIder wrote:Another 'alternative hypothesis': if you disregard the entire contents and evidence and shared and leaked intelligence of David Ray Griffin's book, and just go on the easily viewable evidence of the alleged 'OBL' videos since 2001 which seem to portray a fat Indian guy, and a right-hander wearing a gold ring, with indistinct and muddy audio, then the following scenario could be possible: OBL was still alive up until 2011, but he was either extremely ill or absent from the scene or on the run, so he didn't make any more videos after 2001, hence US or other interests found it necessary to concoct a few. He was then available to be hunted down and killed, extrajudicially, without trial, by illegal incursion into another sovereign country not declared a conflict zone by the UN, although he hadn't done anything since 2001 except protest his innocence on a video, and it still remained to be proven that he somehow 'masterminded' the events of 9/11. I suppose it's possible.


I don't think so, Syd. For Osama Bin Laden to keep quiet goes against everything according to his Sharia beliefs. For Osama it was always moving to the divine intervention of Allah. No man or organization could keep him from achieving martyrdom in displacing the infidels from the holy land.
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Re: Do you believe that Bin Laden is dead?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 28 Jan 2013, 11:52

Misha wrote:I don't think so, Syd. For Osama Bin Laden to keep quiet goes against everything according to his Sharia beliefs. For Osama it was always moving to the divine intervention of Allah. No man or organization could keep him from achieving martyrdom in displacing the infidels from the holy land.

I don't know if we really even know that? He was half-raised in the West, had an affluent Western lifestyle for a while. Seems like a classic double agent to me.
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