Do you believe that they really killed Bin Laden?

[Misha]

Arouet wrote:

"The best argument for Bin Laden not having been killed long ago is why would Al Qaeda go along with it? Wouldn't it be a great strike against America to show that they had lied? How do you get them to cooperate like that?"

That is a great succinct question, Arouet. Any thoughts on this guys? Off the top of my head I would think that if Bin Laden was dead soon after 9/11 Al Qaeda might have wanted to keep Osama's image alive to keep the Jihad going. Now if Al Qaeda can produce Osama's body or his DNA before an impartial [?] international tribunal then the we will know for certain. Like I said to you guys before. NYPD detectives are very suspect without a body.

[Arouet]

I agree that the getting rid of the body was a terrible idea. Or if it was a good idea it should have been handled differently. And they should find a way to release the photos in some way.

But while its possible they would want to keep the image alive to keep the Jihad going, it's not like they couldn't get just as much if not more mileage out of a martyr. And the ability to embarass the americans I would think would be pretty hard to pass up.

[SydneyPSIder]

First of all, is there REALLY any such thing as Al Qaeda? They were originally a 'list' or 'database' of Mujahideen troops/militiamen trained by the US to fight the Russians in the new Great Game -- Al Qaeda is the CIA's list.

I don't believe they're all round the world, adopting the same convenient name. I believe they're an invention mostly. I also think/am sure that 7/7, Madrid and the Bali bombing were inside jobs, i.e. false flag operations. Further, a lot of the supposed extremist groups around the place are funded by sources opposite to whom you think in order to keep populations in fear and disorganised and fragmented.

[Misha]

[Arouet]

I'm not sure it really matters how we label it- there are people in these countries who would love to embarrass the US. Bin Laden would have been dealing with at least some of those people. When those people realised Bin Laden disappeared, they'd have a pretty good idea what happened. Now, perhaps they all decided to back up the US' plan, and go along with it for some reason, but that seems implausible to me. Possible, I guess.

[Misha]

[SydneyPSIder]

[Misha]

A pretty good breakdown, SydneyPSider. Again, I am highly suspicious of the "Zero Dark Thirty" raid which allegedly Killed Osama Bin Laden:

!) Pakistanis in general believe the man killed was not Osama but someone who looked like him (Yes, we have to take this with a grain of salt).
2) Osama's health before and two months after 9/11.
3) Pornography at the Osama compound. This goes against everything touted by Michael Scheuer's analysis of Bin Laden as a devout Muslim.
4) No body as my NYPD friends have remarked.
5) The fact that the NSA had tracked Bin Laden through his using INMARSAT as explained by James Bamford in his book Body of Secrets.
6) Death of around 18 to 20 Seal Team Six member who were involved in some capacity on the raid aboard an Army helicopter.
7) The proposition that we were coming up on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and that to pull out our troops without having succeeded in killing Bin Laden is disconcerting.

I can only look at these items as red flags.

[Arouet]

There certainly are red flags. Whether legit or not it seems designed to raise such flags. That's actually the most curious thing to me. It's like they were trying to do just that.

[SydneyPSIder]

It's all very queer. The shots of barack and hillary and various flacks in the situation room earnestly studying something or other would therefore be contrived, and in fact they would supposedly all have to be in on the ruse, they couldn't do an upwards trick on the pres and secretary of state, surely? the mind boggles.

also something completely off track -- because of this thread i've started watching old video footage of OBL, and i've gotta say he strikes me as possibly being a bit light-footed despite all the alleged wives and kiddies... not that there's anything wrong with that...

then there is this character mark owen (/matt bissonnette) who claims to have flown on the mission and has published a book on it and is supposedly in no end of trouble over it. it's a very contrived setup by intelligence if this is all fake -- it's possible the book has been written as a cover and the whole thing has been sanctioned to lend credibility. mark/matt himself seems to be a bit of an inarticulate idiot in interviews, but that doesn't mean anything i suppose.

we're also supposed to believe obl had 3 wives and 17 kiddies or something living in the compound with a supposed 'command and control' room etc etc

the pseudosceps here generally haven't weighed in for a while, but they would be quite right in pointing to a 'body' of evidence in the foregoing -- either it's all a myth and a hoax and a massive amount of contrived intelligence or there is some legitimacy to the official story.

[Misha]

Hi SydneyPSider, I am in italics

"It's all very queer. The shots of barack and hillary and various flacks in the situation room earnestly studying something or other would therefore be contrived, and in fact they would supposedly all have to be in on the ruse, they couldn't do an upwards trick on the pres and secretary of state, surely? the mind boggles."

This may not be the case, Sydney. In fact, they may have been duped and did not have a need to know. Yeah, compartmentalized Black Op not just against the alleged Osama, but the provisional government.


"then there is this character mark owen (/matt bissonnette) who claims to have flown on the mission and has published a book on it and is supposedly in no end of trouble over it. it's a very contrived setup by intelligence if this is all fake -- it's possible the book has been written as a cover and the whole thing has been sanctioned to lend credibility. mark/matt himself seems to be a bit of an inarticulate idiot in interviews, but that doesn't mean anything i suppose."

Another Black Op, perhaps. It reminds me of William Randolph Hearst"s comment to a reporter reporting on the Spanish American War: "You provide me with the pictures. I'll provide the war."

[SydneyPSIder]

[SydneyPSIder]

Another 'alternative hypothesis': if you disregard the entire contents and evidence and shared and leaked intelligence of David Ray Griffin's book, and just go on the easily viewable evidence of the alleged 'OBL' videos since 2001 which seem to portray a fat Indian guy, and a right-hander wearing a gold ring, with indistinct and muddy audio, then the following scenario could be possible: OBL was still alive up until 2011, but he was either extremely ill or absent from the scene or on the run, so he didn't make any more videos after 2001, hence US or other interests found it necessary to concoct a few. He was then available to be hunted down and killed, extrajudicially, without trial, by illegal incursion into another sovereign country not declared a conflict zone by the UN, although he hadn't done anything since 2001 except protest his innocence on a video, and it still remained to be proven that he somehow 'masterminded' the events of 9/11. I suppose it's possible.

[Misha]

[SydneyPSIder]