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JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby ProfWag » 04 Jul 2013, 08:19

Misha wrote:There is significance evidence to counter the lone gunman theory. Perhaps we could say that the Warren Commission is "a taco short" on this matter. Look at your government today starting with the JFK assassination. When one opens their mind and sees what our government has done to its people: Vietnam, Watergate, Iran/Contra, 9/11, Iraq (WMD lies) and now the admission of NSA wiretapping against its own people then we are faced with the cognitive dissociation which you exhibit. Please take this constructively when I say you will never find the truth until you set aside what David Ray Griffin calls the "Nationalistic Faith." This is a faith born out of the belief that our government cannot do wrong against its own people because to entertain this means you would have to honestly reevaluate your position in society. I think Upton Sinclair said it best - "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." ProfWag, I do not in anyway which to demean you. I respect and like you. However, I must be honest and forthright with your obstinacy.

It's all good Misha, but I couldn't disagree with you more concerning me and my beliefs in government. I disagree with the government all the time. I have spoken to Senators and Representatives in the past on several occasions concerning my disagreements with their actions. I not only believe, I know they lie to us all the time, they are self-serving, and power hungry. They think they are above the law and unwilling to work across the aisles. Having said that, it doesn't mean they are involved in everything from JFK assassinations to 9/11. Most media journalists actually hate the government. If there's a hole where they can stick their noses in and call them out, they will. Think Benghazi, Fast and Furious, IRS, and Snowden to name just a few in the past few months. There's no way 9/11 was an inside job and that hasn't been reported on.
But getting back to the subject, again, you didn't admit that there was a possibility that LHO acted alone. Until you realize that, you are not searching for the truth.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby ProfWag » 04 Jul 2013, 08:19

Misha wrote:There is significance evidence to counter the lone gunman theory. Perhaps we could say that the Warren Commission is "a taco short" on this matter. Look at your government today starting with the JFK assassination. When one opens their mind and sees what our government has done to its people: Vietnam, Watergate, Iran/Contra, 9/11, Iraq (WMD lies) and now the admission of NSA wiretapping against its own people then we are faced with the cognitive dissociation which you exhibit. Please take this constructively when I say you will never find the truth until you set aside what David Ray Griffin calls the "Nationalistic Faith." This is a faith born out of the belief that our government cannot do wrong against its own people because to entertain this means you would have to honestly reevaluate your position in society. I think Upton Sinclair said it best - "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." ProfWag, I do not in anyway which to demean you. I respect and like you. However, I must be honest and forthright with your obstinacy.

It's all good Misha, but I couldn't disagree with you more concerning me and my beliefs in government. I disagree with the government all the time. I have spoken to Senators and Representatives in the past on several occasions concerning my disagreements with their actions. I not only believe, I know they lie to us all the time, they are self-serving, and power hungry. They think they are above the law and unwilling to work across the aisles. Having said that, it doesn't mean they are involved in everything from JFK assassinations to 9/11. Most media journalists actually hate the government. If there's a hole where they can stick their noses in and call them out, they will. Think Benghazi, Fast and Furious, IRS, and Snowden to name just a few in the past few months. There's no way 9/11 was an inside job and that hasn't been reported on.
But getting back to the subject, again, you didn't admit that there was a possibility that LHO acted alone. Until you realize that, you are not searching for the truth.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Arouet » 04 Jul 2013, 08:36

Misha wrote:
Arouet wrote:
Misha wrote: Please take this constructively when I say you will never find the truth until you set aside what David Ray Griffin calls the "Nationalistic Faith." This is a faith born out of the belief that our government cannot do wrong against its own people because to entertain this means you would have to honestly reevaluate your position in society.


Maybe this requires its own thread but do people really believe this? Well, I mean some people sure - but do well-educated people believe this?


Sure. The most well educated people who have fought against government corruption and its intrigues believe this. In fact, Bill Moyer and William Parry are excellent examples of ducking or maligning issues which confront the "Nationalistic Faith." Go and read David Ray Griffin's book- 9/11, Ten Years Later. Griffin illustrates this by referring to the "Symposium on State Crimes against Demorcracy, American Behavioral Science 53, among other examples in his book. Also, a clear example of the academy and the press ignoring scientific principles is the fact that Steven Jones a tenured professor was removed from his teaching post at the University of Colorado, if I have the correct school. Where was the defense by the academy and the press when it comes to the first amendment and freedom of thought in academia? Again, what stopped them is fear of retribution by the state and the government grants which support the "official dogma."

Again, we only have to read Upton to understand the JFK assassination and 9/11. Arouet, it puzzles me that you don't know the answer to your question?


I'm not sure how anything you've written here suggests that people really believe that their government cannot do wrong against its people. I would think that most people are aware that there can be corruption in politics, and that sometimes those in power abuse it. People tend to be cynical about politicians in general. So who are these people who believe government can do no wrong?
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Arouet » 04 Jul 2013, 08:37

really? wrote:Btw, Arouet is Canadian and perhaps not as concerned who shot Kennedy.


You're correct that I'm not all that interested in the Kennedy question but the quote I was responding to was the broad statement that people tend to have blind faith in their government that the government will do no wrong.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Misha » 04 Jul 2013, 11:52

ProfWag wrote:
Misha wrote:There is significance evidence to counter the lone gunman theory. Perhaps we could say that the Warren Commission is "a taco short" on this matter. Look at your government today starting with the JFK assassination. When one opens their mind and sees what our government has done to its people: Vietnam, Watergate, Iran/Contra, 9/11, Iraq (WMD lies) and now the admission of NSA wiretapping against its own people then we are faced with the cognitive dissociation which you exhibit. Please take this constructively when I say you will never find the truth until you set aside what David Ray Griffin calls the "Nationalistic Faith." This is a faith born out of the belief that our government cannot do wrong against its own people because to entertain this means you would have to honestly reevaluate your position in society. I think Upton Sinclair said it best - "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." ProfWag, I do not in anyway which to demean you. I respect and like you. However, I must be honest and forthright with your obstinacy.

It's all good Misha, but I couldn't disagree with you more concerning me and my beliefs in government. I disagree with the government all the time. I have spoken to Senators and Representatives in the past on several occasions concerning my disagreements with their actions. I not only believe, I know they lie to us all the time, they are self-serving, and power hungry. They think they are above the law and unwilling to work across the aisles. Having said that, it doesn't mean they are involved in everything from JFK assassinations to 9/11. Most media journalists actually hate the government. If there's a hole where they can stick their noses in and call them out, they will. Think Benghazi, Fast and Furious, IRS, and Snowden to name just a few in the past few months. There's no way 9/11 was an inside job and that hasn't been reported on.
But getting back to the subject, again, you didn't admit that there was a possibility that LHO acted alone. Until you realize that, you are not searching for the truth.



ProfWag, then why do you talk with them (corrupt politicians)? You know what they are about yet you reaffirm their position of power by acknowledging their power over us? Moreover, you acknowledge partisan party politics at the expense of truth and what that means to be an American under the constitution - Something George Washington warned us about. It appears in this day and age in our political system that to appeal to power means that one has to be corrupt. No, I do not mean you are corrupt per se. I'm sure of this. But, you enable the system of corruption by appealing to it, i.e., the Nationalist Faith in which I speak of.

Yes, media journalists more than likely "hate the government." However, they enable the corruption by embracing the dogma of lies. They are enabling a system of lies because you and I know they are afraid of government. The media knows exactly where the invisible electrified fence is when it comes to the truth. And, none dare touch that fence for fear of losing their job. They will sublimate the truth for their own existence.

Your phrasing of the truth concerning LHO is NOT consistent with contextual nature of the historical lies which you won't acknowledge. Lest I remind you that House Select Committee on Assassinations even had to engage in limited hangout on the truth regarding the assassination of JFK because THAT evidence was kept secret. This being that the assassination of JFK more than likely was the result of a conspiracy. I am paraphrasing to be fair here. But, the essence is the same. ProfWag, what will it take for you to wake up?
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Misha » 04 Jul 2013, 12:00

Arouet wrote:
really? wrote:Btw, Arouet is Canadian and perhaps not as concerned who shot Kennedy.


You're correct that I'm not all that interested in the Kennedy question but the quote I was responding to was the broad statement that people tend to have blind faith in their government that the government will do no wrong.


Arouet, How can you not be interested in Kennedy question when this nation (America) and the rest of the world was on the brink of nuclear destruction? No nation is an island unto themselves, even Canada. It is called radioactive fallout. It is important you study the Kennedy administration and know why he got his head blown off. The Cartesian philosophy has long been dead in the nuclear age.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Arouet » 04 Jul 2013, 12:16

Let's skip ahead - assume for the sake of argument that JFK was assassinated for the reasons you believe and by the people you believe - what then? What is the implication for us today?

Let's also admit that there is some element of corruption in Western democracies - what to do about that? Blow the whole system up in order to stop enabling it? Deny its authority and join a private militia? Let's say you find a old lamp while walking on the beach and a genie pops out and grants you one wish - what do you replace the current system with?
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Jul 2013, 18:48

Arouet wrote:Let's skip ahead - assume for the sake of argument that JFK was assassinated for the reasons you believe and by the people you believe - what then? What is the implication for us today?

Let's also admit that there is some element of corruption in Western democracies - what to do about that? Blow the whole system up in order to stop enabling it? Deny its authority and join a private militia? Let's say you find a old lamp while walking on the beach and a genie pops out and grants you one wish - what do you replace the current system with?

What a great question. Personally, I don't have a clue.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby ProfWag » 04 Jul 2013, 20:14

Misha wrote:

ProfWag, then why do you talk with them (corrupt politicians)? You know what they are about yet you reaffirm their position of power by acknowledging their power over us? Moreover, you acknowledge partisan party politics at the expense of truth and what that means to be an American under the constitution - Something George Washington warned us about. It appears in this day and age in our political system that to appeal to power means that one has to be corrupt. No, I do not mean you are corrupt per se. I'm sure of this. But, you enable the system of corruption by appealing to it, i.e., the Nationalist Faith in which I speak of.

Perhaps I engage with them because I feel it's the duty of all members of a democratic society to engage with those that they elected in office. Not doing so is negligence and shows one doesn't care about your country (or state or city or etc.) Additionally, the more silenced the citizens under a politician are, the more apt they are to do whatever the hell they want--voting blindly so to speak. Is that how you want your country run?
Here's another example. I despise corrupt psychics. More than one had taken advantage of my ignorant mother on several occasions. By not speaking out on their lies, would that not "reaffirm their position of power?" You may say that psychics don't have that kind of power, but I'll beg to differ. People begin to listen and do whatever the hell these so-called psychics tell them, all the while raking in hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars. Is it okay for me to sit there and let that go on? Same with politicians. If we just sit there and do nothing, they will begin to think that their constituents know nothing about the issues at hand. No Misha, it's imperative that we talk with them. And often.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby ProfWag » 04 Jul 2013, 20:54

Misha wrote: This being that the assassination of JFK more than likely was the result of a conspiracy. I am paraphrasing to be fair here. But, the essence is the same. ProfWag, what will it take for you to wake up?

While it's very true that the evidence I've reviewed for the past 30 years or so points to a lone assassin, I am quite open to a conspiracy should unbiased evidence ever be brought forth that points in that direction. Unfortantely you, on the other hand, appear to be blind to anything but a conspiracy. That's the difference between you and I.

Here's the thing Misha, there are obviously a lot of questions unanswered. You presented at one time compelling evidence of switched caskets as well as other valuable information. However, everything from Jack Ruby to your casket conspiracy are irrelevant to actually finding out what happened in Dealey Plaza. There is a strong possibility that others, besides, Oswald, were planning to kill JFK so how do we know that those who present their "inside knowledge" weren't involved in a conspiracy that didn't go as planned? That LHO beat them to the punch? Perhaps many knew of it and even, perhaps, were planning on doing it on November 22, 1963. However, the conclusions of ballistics experts, forensic scientists, and scores of other experts (as well as most witnesses) determined that 3 bullets were shot out of the 6th floor window and from nowhere else. Oswald had the desire (see Edwin Walker, Russia, etc.), the weapon, the opportunity, and the ability. Evidence points to him shooting Officer Tippit? 50 years now and no other person has been identified as a possible accomplice. Any and all other evidence presented to date are merely conjectures. Please tell me specifically who else was involved. However, I don't want to hear "maybe it was LBJ" or "maybe it was RFK" or "maybe it was someone else." Maybe's don't cut it in the subject. Give me the name of a person who could have also been involved at 12:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963 and there is no question to reliability of the information. I'd love to research him (or her). Unfortunately, I don't believe you will have that information because it doesn't exist. Could LHO have told someone else he was going to do it? Sure. He told his wife that he shot at Walker which means that keeping a secret of that magnitude would have been hard to do for him. But where was this person at the time of the shooting? Evidence points towards if there was someone else, that person was somewhere other than Dealey Plaza. Sorry, but those are my conclusions based on reality and NOT conjecture.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby really? » 04 Jul 2013, 21:19

Misha wrote: This being that the assassination of JFK more than likely was the result of a conspiracy. I am paraphrasing to be fair here. But, the essence is the same. ProfWag, what will it take for you to wake up?

ProfWag wrote:While it's very true that the evidence I've reviewed for the past 30 years or so points to a lone assassin, I am quite open to a conspiracy should unbiased evidence ever be brought forth that points in that direction. Unfortantely you, on the other hand, appear to be blind to anything but a conspiracy. That's the difference between you and I.



Out of all you've ever written this is the most important thing. Misha and all other people like him/her want skeptics to have an open mind and acknowledge we might be wrong, which is a fair expectation. Yet people such as Misha hardly ever demonstrate the same open mindedness or acknowledgement they might be wrong about their own position.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Misha » 05 Jul 2013, 03:04

really? wrote:
Misha wrote: This being that the assassination of JFK more than likely was the result of a conspiracy. I am paraphrasing to be fair here. But, the essence is the same. ProfWag, what will it take for you to wake up?

ProfWag wrote:While it's very true that the evidence I've reviewed for the past 30 years or so points to a lone assassin, I am quite open to a conspiracy should unbiased evidence ever be brought forth that points in that direction. Unfortantely you, on the other hand, appear to be blind to anything but a conspiracy. That's the difference between you and I.



Out of all you've ever written this is the most important thing. Misha and all other people like him/her want skeptics to have an open mind and acknowledge we might be wrong, which is a fair expectation. Yet people such as Misha hardly ever demonstrate the same open mindedness or acknowledgement they might be wrong about their own position.


Geez, guys. It appears you two haven't learned. It is not I who does not have an open mind. I very much do and try to take in both sides stoically and without bias. Yes, this can be difficult because we all tend gravitate to some thesis in one way or another. No was is immune from this. However, I have done my homework. I have spent years looking at the dialectic. The antithesis to the official version means to understand how the official version is flawed. So, in essence one has to know what the thesis is when opposing it. However, what happens is that those who support the official version won't take time to know what the opposing camp promulgates. ProfWag, you yourself were unaware of Kennedy's "Joint Service Casket Team" and the FBI 301 report. Yet, I am blinded? I never said that I am above being wrong on something.* I have tried to qualify my research based on what's there and what is credible and viable. What's changed.

Really, what can I say. You got it all figured out. I sited the HSCA and you accuse me of not having an open mind. Beam me up, Scotty!!!

*I went back and edited this phrase what I thought was nebulous on my part.
Last edited by Misha on 05 Jul 2013, 05:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby really? » 05 Jul 2013, 03:57

Misha wrote:
really? wrote:
Misha wrote: This being that the assassination of JFK more than likely was the result of a conspiracy. I am paraphrasing to be fair here. But, the essence is the same. ProfWag, what will it take for you to wake up?

ProfWag wrote:While it's very true that the evidence I've reviewed for the past 30 years or so points to a lone assassin, I am quite open to a conspiracy should unbiased evidence ever be brought forth that points in that direction. Unfortantely you, on the other hand, appear to be blind to anything but a conspiracy. That's the difference between you and I.



Out of all you've ever written this is the most important thing. Misha and all other people like him/her want skeptics to have an open mind and acknowledge we might be wrong, which is a fair expectation. Yet people such as Misha hardly ever demonstrate the same open mindedness or acknowledgement they might be wrong about their own position.


Geez, guys. It appears you two haven't learned. It is not I who does not have an open mind. I very much do and try to take in both sides stoically and without bias. Yes, this can be difficult because we all tend gravitate to some thesis in one way or another. No was is immune from this. However, I have done my homework. I have spent years looking at the dialectic. The antithesis to the official version means to understand how the official version is flawed. So, in essence one has to know what the thesis is when opposing it. However, what happens is that those who support the official version won't take time to know what the opposing camp promulgates. ProfWag, you yourself were unaware of Kennedy's "Joint Service Casket Team" and the FBI 301 report. Yet, I am blinded? I never said that I could be wrong on something. I have tried to qualify my research based on what's there and what is credible and viable. What's changed.

Really, what can I say. You got it all figured out. I sited the HSCA and you accuse me of not having an open mind. Beam me up, Scotty!!!

I'm not making a specific comment on the Kennedy assassination. I am only pointing out that you should not take a firm position to the point of precluding a change of your opinion.

To the best of my knowledge it has never been established beyond reasonable doubt that there was collusion between parties. Even if there was another shooter it has not ever been established that Oswald ever conspired with anyone.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby Misha » 05 Jul 2013, 04:56

Really, you should heed your own words. As for me I try to follow this tenet by John Stuart Mill:

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.”
-John Stuart Mill


This should be clear on my state of mind regarding openness.
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Re: JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Postby ProfWag » 05 Jul 2013, 20:28

Yes Misha, it is true that I have a life outside of researching the JFK Assassination which prevents me from spending considerable amounts of time on the issue. I also know that there are people out there that do spend considerable amounts of time, possibly even more than you, who have come to different conclusions than you. The little time I get to do research, I tend to focus on the events between 12:25 and 2:00 on Nov 22 which is what I find more interesting and relevant. What happened to the body after death is really not quite as important as proving who shot the President so yes, I may have heard about it and forgotten or suppressed the information for one reason or another. For example, the casket was dumped in the ocean. Sounds kinda fishy (pardon the pun) but there's a plausible explanation for it and even if there wasn't, it doesn't have as much to do with the killing as to what was going on inside Dealey Plaza at the time of the shots.
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